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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...

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  • VladMoss@aol.com
    In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com ... A new path in ecclesiology does not immediately become apparent to all, and it
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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      In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@...
      writes:


      > JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
      > seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
      > exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
      > this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
      > late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
      > of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
      > Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
      > accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
      > times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
      > been any change.
      >

      A new path in ecclesiology does not immediately become apparent to all, and
      it takes time to gather speed.

      It began with Archbishop Anthony, who, contrary to the public promises of the
      ROCOR Synod to the Old Calendarist Greeks, entered into communion with the
      Greek new calendarists. When I protested, Metropolitan Philaret told me to my
      face that I was right, but that he had no power to stop Anthony. However, the
      1983 anathema against ecumenism put at least a partial stop to the process of
      concelebrating with ecumenists.

      But it started again in 1986, with the partial disavowal of the 1983 anathema
      and Archbishop Anthony's instructing his clergy to serve with the new
      calendarists when in Greece, which led to the departure of the ROCOR's Paris
      mission to the OCs. Further activities of this sort also led to HOCNA's
      departure - although I do not deny that in that case there were also personal
      motives involved.

      In the 1990s the "new path" gathered momentum with ambiguous statements about
      the MP and more or less continuous and official communion with the Serbs,
      which greatly troubled especially the new members (and bishops) of the ROCOR
      inside Russia. This process reached its climax with the ROCOR Sobor's
      official letter to the Serbian Patriarch (only a few months after that
      patriarch called the ROCOR "schismatical") asking him to help in restoring
      communion with the Soviet church.

      So the path is not that new, but its adoption by the whole of the ROCOR Synod
      (excluding Metropolitan Vitaly and Archbishop Barnabas, of course) is new.

      Vladimir Moss


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • VladMoss@aol.com
      In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com ... Does not every priest in the Orthodox Church swear to abide by the canons? Even
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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        In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@...
        writes:


        > And the disciplinary Canons (as opposed to those that define dogma) can
        > only be used by the hierarchy. To call on the individual to use them,
        > is like giving computer files to someone who lives in a land without
        > telephone lines, cables, or electricity...
        >

        Does not every priest in the Orthodox Church swear to abide by the canons?
        Even a layman like myself was asked formally to accept their authority when I
        joined the MP from Anglicanism in 1974.

        Certainly, no decree of any secular authority, even if he is an Orthodox
        Emperor like Peter the Great, can stand if it is opposed to the Holy Canons.

        Vladimir Moss


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists is very much skewed. All this wrangling is the work of a very small handful of
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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          Paul Bartlett wrote:

          > Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
          > and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
          > that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
          > where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
          > Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
          > some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
          > becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
          > (which is outside Christianity entirely).

          Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists
          is very much skewed. "All this wrangling" is the work of a very small
          handful of people; they are heard from here, but not too much anywhere
          else (though HTM would be the exception, as it has been wrangling since
          1986).

          However, the sad truth is that "all this" has driven many people away
          from Orthodoxy and the Church over the years, who had been thinking of
          joining or returning.

          My recommendation is to visit an actual parish, rather than going only
          by what you read here...

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Margaret Lark
          Glory to God for all things! From: Paul O. BARTLETT Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:49 PM THIS, MESSRS. KOZYREFF, MOSS, AND RUST,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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            Glory to God for all things!

            From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:49 PM

            THIS, MESSRS. KOZYREFF, MOSS, AND RUST, AND MS. PAHLEN, IS EXACTLY WHY WE
            NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF WHAT WE THROW AROUND. If this gentleman does remain
            outside the Faith, it is you and your sympathizers who will have to answer
            before God. (And probably, unfortunately, me too, for responding in this
            manner, but I have found this thread increasingly scandalous myself and now
            feel I must speak, when its fruits become so apparent.)

            | Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
            | and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
            | that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
            | where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
            | Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
            | some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
            | becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
            | (which is outside Christianity entirely).

            Dear Mr. Bartlett, don't go. Don't judge Orthodox Christianity by what you
            read on the internet. I will be happy to speak with you offlist, if you
            would like, but would urge you to join another list -- "orthodox-convert,"
            perhaps, which has over 600 members who, thanks to occasional gentle
            reminders from the moderator, keep the level of discourse at a remarkably
            civilized level. The wrangling *is* very discouraging, but I would remind
            you that the Evil One rejoices to see it, and will never cease attacking
            Christ's Church.

            For what it's worth, I have recently affiliated with ROCOR from the GOA. I
            knew about this controversy, saw it develop from its very beginnings, have
            studied the claims of the various contenders, and am comfortable with my
            decision -- for one thing, it brings me great peace, and for another, it is
            ROCOR that encourages me to struggle with my own sins, iinstead of flinging
            mud at priests and hierarchs. God alone judges their worthiness to lead His
            flock; I am nothing more than a simple sheep, and sometimes pretty black, at
            that.

            But as a sheep (and incidentally, as someone who knows rather more about
            real sheep than most people), I also know that all I have to rely on in this
            life is my Shepherd, and His under-shepherds. It was His guidance I asked
            when faced with my decision, and the way events have arranged themselves in
            my life, I have no doubt as to which is His true flock.

            I hope to hear from you soon.

            In Christ,
            Margaret Lark, sinner
          • janie pyle
            Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete key when you see certain names. Don t let them dissuade
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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              Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are
              thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete
              key when you see certain names. Don't let them
              dissuade you from returning to Orthodoxy. I hope you
              find a parish (I am in Rocor, also) where you may be
              nurtured as you travel the "royal path". I had hopes
              that some of these characters would make a resolution
              not to put their vitriol in print for the civil New
              Year but according to recent posts that doesn't appear
              to be happening. Let us remember to pray for these
              poor souls who are tares among the wheat. Delete and
              pray.... Magdalena

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            • Peter Okopny
              I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
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                I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people should be removed from the list since they have proved that they are not!

                I pray that GOD may help them!

                One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

                Peter Okopny
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...


                Paul Bartlett wrote:

                > Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
                > and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
                > that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
                > where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
                > Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
                > some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
                > becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
                > (which is outside Christianity entirely).

                Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists
                is very much skewed. "All this wrangling" is the work of a very small
                handful of people; they are heard from here, but not too much anywhere
                else (though HTM would be the exception, as it has been wrangling since
                1986).

                However, the sad truth is that "all this" has driven many people away
                from Orthodoxy and the Church over the years, who had been thinking of
                joining or returning.

                My recommendation is to visit an actual parish, rather than going only
                by what you read here...

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Margaret Lark
                Glory to God for all things! From: Peter Okopny Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM ... And if there s *one* thing you
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 4, 2003
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                  Glory to God for all things!

                  From: "Peter Okopny" <peter.okopny@...>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM

                  | One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

                  And if there's *one* thing you *don't* want to do, it's tick off a Cossack.
                  ;-)

                  In Christ,
                  Margaret Lark, sinner
                • Hristofor
                  ... The so-called new path (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 11, 2003
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                    At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
                    >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
                    >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
                    >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
                    >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
                    >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
                    >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
                    >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
                    >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
                    >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
                    >been any change.

                    The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared
                    to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning
                    the centuries:

                    Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian reforms and
                    some even went as far as committing suicide.

                    In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have foretold the
                    pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they: either
                    by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World Did Not End.

                    In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by the
                    pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union between
                    Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-wingers, "first
                    they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far behind!
                    You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a few days,
                    and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact, the only
                    talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date for their
                    Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be anathema to
                    all Orthodox bishops.

                    Hristofor
                  • goossir <irene.goossens@cec.eu.int>
                    Dear Hristofor, You write: « The so-called new path (a red herring if I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 13, 2003
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                      Dear Hristofor,

                      You write: « The so-called "new path" (a red herring if I ever saw
                      one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».

                      The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John
                      Shaw is hardly a product of our imagination.

                      "--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, " Fr. Seraphim Holland wrote:
                      I have not had experienced much hatred or innuendo for a while, so I
                      want to say plainly: I would completely accept union with the MP if
                      my synod of bishops so desires it. A more likely scenario is
                      liturgical communion, which I would also accept with great joy.
                      Father John Shaw replied (post 7395): It seems to me that the two
                      sides are getting closer and closer to each other all the time.
                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw"

                      The rapprochement with the MP is taking place, despite so numerous
                      postings on this list, (and not the least, the last interview of
                      Alexis II, posted by V. Kozyreff), demonstrating the lies and deceits
                      of the MP, which is in no way amending itself but wishes to shush any
                      allusion to sergianism and ecumenism.
                      We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
                      they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
                      Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
                      sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
                      anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
                      the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
                      from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
                      rapprochement will advance, ...")
                      And in:
                      "We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
                      Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
                      coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
                      Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
                      Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
                      eng.html

                      Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
                      ROCOR.

                      In Christ,

                      Irina Pahlen

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
                      > >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
                      > >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
                      > >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began
                      making
                      > >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out
                      the
                      > >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop
                      Anthony
                      > >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations
                      of
                      > >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
                      > >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at
                      various
                      > >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that
                      there has
                      > >been any change.
                      >
                      > The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be
                      compared
                      > to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling,
                      spanning
                      > the centuries:
                      >
                      > Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian
                      reforms and
                      > some even went as far as committing suicide.
                      >
                      > In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have
                      foretold the
                      > pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they:
                      either
                      > by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World
                      Did Not End.
                      >
                      > In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by
                      the
                      > pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union
                      between
                      > Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-
                      wingers, "first
                      > they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far
                      behind!
                      > You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a
                      few days,
                      > and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact,
                      the only
                      > talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date
                      for their
                      > Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be
                      anathema to
                      > all Orthodox bishops.
                      >
                      > Hristofor
                    • Hristofor
                      ... No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the musings of
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 14, 2003
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                        At 10:40 AM 1/13/2003, you wrote:
                        >Dear Hristofor,
                        >The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John Shaw is
                        >hardly a product of our imagination.

                        No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own
                        opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the
                        musings of Vl. Amvrosi and the German newspaper interview with Vl Mark, and
                        etc, all of which have been thoroughly discussed on this list, I have yet
                        to hear any other ROCA bishop express similar pro union views, either in
                        the year that I have been on this list or elsewhere. Not one other bishop.
                        Do one or two bishops set the course and direction of the whole Church? The
                        more so since Vl Amvrosy is not a member of the Synod and thus doesn't even
                        attend the more frequent synodal meetings. As a matter of fact, 2 bishops
                        in separate private conversations have expressed to me a
                        less-then-optimistic picture about the speed for union or communion.

                        >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                        Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for the last
                        80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                        _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be The
                        Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone happens to
                        have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically bring the
                        total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have heard the
                        adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I have
                        already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or drifted
                        away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because through
                        the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian Orthodox no
                        longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these people who
                        have drifted away?

                        >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
                        >they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
                        >Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
                        >sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
                        >anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
                        >the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
                        >from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
                        >rapprochement will advance, ...")

                        BTW, Metropolitan Vitaly signed the letter to the Serbian Patriarch, did he
                        not? Or did he "realise this mistake and remove his signature from that
                        letter as well." There have been so many ukases followed by retractions
                        from Mansonville with his purported signature, that it is hard to keep
                        track...

                        Mr Kozyrev's arguments aside for correcting a mistake, I wonder how many
                        ukazes ROCA has issued in it's 80 year history that have later had
                        signatures retracted from them? Certainly, there have been ukazes changing,
                        abolishing or amending previous ones, as a situation may warrant, but those
                        were always done with a majority of the bishops and not unilaterally. Since
                        Mr Kozyreff has dismissed Fr Alexander's 3 reasons for signature
                        retraction, what then could possibly have changed Vl. Varnava's mind? I
                        presume all the bishops were privy to all the same information: they are
                        all learned and knowledgeable about the current state of World Orthodoxy
                        when the issue of the letter to Patr. Pavle arose. On the other hand, I
                        don't know of any major scandal or crisis which erupted in the Serbian
                        Church directly after our October sobor which would have changed Vl.
                        Varnava's mind so abruptly.

                        >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that they
                        >accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.

                        Well, only you and a few others operate under the premise that the MP is
                        heretical.

                        One of the oddest parts to phantom about the schism (assuming that the
                        reason for it is union/communion with Moscow, which I sincerely doubt) is
                        that most of the issues and concerns troubling the French have been
                        occurring in one form or another for years, without much ado. And
                        then--boom!--in an instant, the French are in schism. For instance, just
                        before the split, right there on rue Claude Lorrain, the Moscow
                        myhrr-bearing icon of Tsar-Martyr Nikolai II is brought from Russia and is
                        in our Parisian parish to be venerated. Fast-forward two years later and
                        now some of the same people who venerated the icon are saying that the MP
                        is heretical!!

                        >And in:
                        >"We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
                        >Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
                        >coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
                        >Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
                        >Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
                        >eng.html
                        >
                        >Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
                        >ROCOR.

                        During the years of Soviet power, I never imagined how the USSR would meet
                        its demise and I certainly didn't think that it would happen the way it
                        would. As much as I would have loved for the USSR to disappear and the
                        clock turn back to 1917, it just didn't happen that way. Hatred of the USSR
                        and all the bad things which happened to Russia in the past century should
                        not turn in to an illogical stumbling block which paralyzes all present and
                        future activity.

                        Labelling everything from the current activities of the MP to banning
                        Christmas in an American school "sergianism" really belittles the true
                        meaning of the word and does a disservice to all those who spoke out
                        against Metropolitan Sergius and were subsequently martyred.

                        Hristofor
                      • wn4732 <wn4732@yahoo.com>
                        ... the last ... The ... happens to ... bring the ... heard the ... have ... drifted ... through ... Orthodox no ... people who ... Finally a person with his
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 15, 2003
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                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,

                          Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:

                          > >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                          > Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for
                          the last
                          > 80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                          > _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be
                          The
                          > Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone
                          happens to
                          > have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically
                          bring the
                          > total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have
                          heard the
                          > adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I
                          have
                          > already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or
                          drifted
                          > away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because
                          through
                          > the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian
                          Orthodox no
                          > longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these
                          people who
                          > have drifted away?

                          Finally a person with his head on straight! God Bless you Sir and may
                          your words penetrate the stubborn hearts among the Orthodox Diaspora.

                          Peter
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