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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: First of all, as you may recall, it was later shown that no woman police officer had entered the sanctuary or removed Metropolitan Vitaly by force.
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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      Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:

      > 1. Do you remember that Vl Vitaly was forcefully taken by police (a
      > woman police officer) that went to the altar to take him by force for
      > a psychiatric examination and that the medical conclusion was that Vl
      > Vitaly was sane and able to perform his duties of first hierarch?

      JRS: First of all, as you may recall, it was later shown that no "woman
      police officer" had entered the sanctuary or removed Metropolitan
      Vitaly by force. The "woman who went into the sanctuary" had been
      Ludmilla herself. But quite a lot of disinformation was spread by ROCiE
      people at the time, the more so as there were so few outside witnesses.

      Second, the psychiatric examination that was performed could in no way
      have been competent to judge Metropolitan Vitaly's ability to rule the
      Church. At best, they could state that they found no signs of a mental
      illness. But that is not the same thing as proving he had no signs of
      old-age mental deterioration! He could have been "normal for his age"
      i.e. someone over 90 -- but there are [at least in theory] Synodal
      rules against anyone over 90 holding an official Church administrative
      position.

      > 2. Do you forget that L Rosnyanskaya was sent to Vl Vitaly by the NY
      > Synod with the mission to take control over him and to try to take
      > him back to NY under the control of the NY Synod. Is this not
      > frightful, to sin in the name of the truth? Is this not sergianism?

      JRS: I was not aware this had been shown to be true. There was talk
      that at one point she had offered to bring him back, but that is not
      the same thing as her being "sent with a mission by the NY Synod". It
      also does not sound much like "Sergianism" to me...

      > The deposition of Vl Varnava cannot be taken seriously by any
      > informed orthodox, knowing that he was judged and condemned without
      > hearing, on the basis of irrelevant canons in a way that would
      > horrify any person who knows anything about canons, and knowing that
      > he was condemned a second time for sins that had already been judged
      > and pardoned.

      JRS: Varnava was "judged and condemned without [a] hearing", because he
      himself chose not to go to the Synod. If he had appeared, he would have
      had his "hearing". So the fault was his, and in such cases it is
      childish to think one could void the rulings of a Synodal session by
      ignoring them.

      He was also not "condemned for sins", but for disobedience, and for the
      kind of contempt for Church order that his refusal to appear
      demonstrated.

      > It is obvious that the real reason for which he was "deposed" was to
      > prevent him from resisting the new path order in the ROCOR.

      JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
      seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
      exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
      this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
      late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
      of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
      Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
      accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
      times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
      been any change.

      On the contrary, there are some angry and impatient voices on the other
      side that berate us for failing, even after all these years, to
      normalize relations with the Patriarchate.

      It can't be both ways: if in 1976, or 1980-81, or 1986, or 1995, or
      2001, the Church Abroad is accused of "embarking on a new path", and at
      the same time accused by others of sitting, in the English idiom, "like
      a bump on a log", then we must have been about in the same place in
      1976 as we are today...

      > In
      > conclusion, an orthodox who perceives things as explained above
      > cannot accept the deposition as valid and cannot be convinced by mere
      > statements to the contrary. Christians are taught to beware of false
      > prophets and false teachings and to exert their capacity to identify
      > them.

      JRS: This kind of argument approximates that of the Protestants: the
      individual to decide and interpret for himself!

      But while, in Protestant thinking, it is the Bible that is "absolute"
      and which each must somehow make sense of, in the argument you advance
      above, the Acts of the 7 Councils would, presumably, take this place.
      Yet in that case, the Canons (like the codification of the Bible)
      derive their authority from the Church, from the Councils, and not vice-
      versa.

      And the disciplinary Canons (as opposed to those that define dogma) can
      only be used by the hierarchy. To call on the individual to use them,
      is like giving computer files to someone who lives in a land without
      telephone lines, cables, or electricity...

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • DCNDIMITRI@aol.com
      In a message dated 01/01/2003 10:20:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... I have been following this thread from its beginning. I can no longer keep silent as the
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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        In a message dated 01/01/2003 10:20:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        vrevjrs@... writes:

        > > on the basis of irrelevant canons in a way that would
        > > horrify any person who knows anything about canons, and knowing that
        > > he was condemned a second time for sins that had already been judged
        > > and pardoned.
        >
        > JRS: Varnava was "judged and condemned without [a] hearing", because he
        > himself chose not to go to the Synod. If he had appeared, he would have
        > had his "hearing". So the fault was his, and in such cases it is
        > childish to think one could void the rulings of a Synodal session by
        > ignoring them.


        I have been following this thread from its beginning. I can no longer
        keep silent as the likes of a Mr. Vladimir Kozyreff distort the facts. With
        statements such as "The deposition of Vl Varnava cannot be taken seriously by
        any informed orthodox, knowing that he was judged and condemned without
        hearing...," you show your true intentions and your lack of knowledge of the
        facts. Father John is correct in his response above.
        I am aware of 2 separate telephone conversations, one of which I
        personally witnessed, to the now Monk Varnava. Both telephone calls were
        made to insure that Monk Varnava would attend the hearing. They were
        compassionate pleas for him to come to the Synod and to be heard. Monk
        Varnava did not "choose" not to go to the Synod, he REFUSED! Therefore, he
        is in control of his own destiny and received exactly what he deserved, based
        on his actions. No one can dispute this, I was at the Synod, I saw and heard
        it myself. It is indeed a real shame because all this could have been
        avoided had Monk Varnava shown up.

        In Christ,
        the unworthy
        deacon dimitri temidis
      • VladMoss@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com ... A new path in ecclesiology does not immediately become apparent to all, and it
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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          In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@...
          writes:


          > JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
          > seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
          > exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
          > this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
          > late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
          > of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
          > Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
          > accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
          > times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
          > been any change.
          >

          A new path in ecclesiology does not immediately become apparent to all, and
          it takes time to gather speed.

          It began with Archbishop Anthony, who, contrary to the public promises of the
          ROCOR Synod to the Old Calendarist Greeks, entered into communion with the
          Greek new calendarists. When I protested, Metropolitan Philaret told me to my
          face that I was right, but that he had no power to stop Anthony. However, the
          1983 anathema against ecumenism put at least a partial stop to the process of
          concelebrating with ecumenists.

          But it started again in 1986, with the partial disavowal of the 1983 anathema
          and Archbishop Anthony's instructing his clergy to serve with the new
          calendarists when in Greece, which led to the departure of the ROCOR's Paris
          mission to the OCs. Further activities of this sort also led to HOCNA's
          departure - although I do not deny that in that case there were also personal
          motives involved.

          In the 1990s the "new path" gathered momentum with ambiguous statements about
          the MP and more or less continuous and official communion with the Serbs,
          which greatly troubled especially the new members (and bishops) of the ROCOR
          inside Russia. This process reached its climax with the ROCOR Sobor's
          official letter to the Serbian Patriarch (only a few months after that
          patriarch called the ROCOR "schismatical") asking him to help in restoring
          communion with the Soviet church.

          So the path is not that new, but its adoption by the whole of the ROCOR Synod
          (excluding Metropolitan Vitaly and Archbishop Barnabas, of course) is new.

          Vladimir Moss


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • VladMoss@aol.com
          In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@execpc.com ... Does not every priest in the Orthodox Church swear to abide by the canons? Even
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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            In a message dated 01/01/03 15:20:29 GMT Standard Time, vrevjrs@...
            writes:


            > And the disciplinary Canons (as opposed to those that define dogma) can
            > only be used by the hierarchy. To call on the individual to use them,
            > is like giving computer files to someone who lives in a land without
            > telephone lines, cables, or electricity...
            >

            Does not every priest in the Orthodox Church swear to abide by the canons?
            Even a layman like myself was asked formally to accept their authority when I
            joined the MP from Anglicanism in 1974.

            Certainly, no decree of any secular authority, even if he is an Orthodox
            Emperor like Peter the Great, can stand if it is opposed to the Holy Canons.

            Vladimir Moss


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • boulia_1 <eledkovsky@hotmail.com>
            I should like to respectfully point out to those brothers and sisters in Christ for whom English is a second, or (probably) a third (or maybe even fourth or
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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              I should like to respectfully point out to those brothers and sisters
              in Christ for whom English is a second, or (probably) a third (or
              maybe even fourth or fifth) language, an error that is repeatedly made
              on this list.

              That error is the increasingly frequent use of a made-up (i.e.
              non-existent in the English language) word as an adverb or adjective
              (see just a few recent examples below).

              It appears that this word has become, for certain posters, a
              catch-all, to be used to describe any activity by any person or
              ogranization of which he or she disapproves. In a sincere attempt to
              help these people convey their opinions more accurately, I offer some
              examples of descriptive words that actually excist in the English
              language, that might be used as a substitute for "sergianism" in
              future commentaries:

              distasteful, incorrect, improper, annoying, immoral, dangerous,
              aggravating, evil, frustrating, foolish, inappropriate, illegal,
              heartbreaking, irritating, problematic, questionable, bad, wrong ...

              I might also point out that Microsoft Word provides a decent English
              language thesaurus, if my short list proves insufficient, inadequate,
              woeful...

              Please, dear readers, do not be offended by this comment. As a writer
              and editor by profession, I only mean to point out that over-use of
              ANY word tends to dilute its impact. That is even more true for a
              made-up word like "sergianism," which really has no succinct and
              logical definition. The fact that it is bandied about by some people
              as frequently as the word "and" renders its meaning vaguer than ever.
              If you want people to believe this "word" means something, then stick
              to using it in the context of Patriarch Sergius' legacy within the MP
              (that IS what 'sergianism' is supposed to be about, isn't it?)

              In Christ,
              Elizabeth

              (preparing for the onslaught on angry replies from members of one camp
              and the silent cheers from everyone else).

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff
              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:


              > 2. Do you forget that L Rosnyanskaya was sent to Vl Vitaly by the NY
              > Synod with the mission to take control over him and to try to take
              > him back to NY under the control of the NY Synod. Is this not
              > frightful, to sin in the name of the truth? Is this not sergianism?
              >
              >

              > You attempt here to show that using fallacies can lead to the truth.
              > This is a kind of intellectual sergianism.
              >
              > We all agree that the situation in which we live is very abnormal.
              > Who would have predicted that respected priests in the ROCOR would
              > promote ecumenism and sergianism?
              >
              >
            • Paul O. BARTLETT
              On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, vkozyreff wrote: ... Could someone be kind enough to define intellectual sergianism ? Thanks. Just from a
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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                On Wed, 1 Jan 2003, vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
                (excerpt):

                > You attempt here to show that using fallacies can lead to the truth.
                > This is a kind of intellectual sergianism.

                Could someone be kind enough to define "intellectual sergianism"?
                Thanks.

                Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
                and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
                that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
                where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
                Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
                some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
                becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
                (which is outside Christianity entirely).

                --
                Paul Bartlett
                bartlett at smart.net
              • Margaret Lark
                Glory to God for all things! From: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:48 PM ... What the heck, my name is mud on this list anyway:
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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                  Glory to God for all things!

                  From: <eledkovsky@...>
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 2:48 PM


                  | In Christ,
                  | Elizabeth
                  |
                  | (preparing for the onslaught on angry replies from members of one camp
                  | and the silent cheers from everyone else).

                  What the heck, my name is mud on this list anyway:

                  THREE CHEERS FOR ELIZABETH! I've grown so accustomed to the use of the term
                  "sergianism" that I hadn't even picked up on your excellent point, that it
                  is actually a made-up word. And a very overworked one, at that.

                  Frankly, there are posts I just go ahead and delete without reading them, at
                  this point. It's getting too close to Nativity for me to want to inflame my
                  passions any more than they are already (like I really needed *more* items
                  for my confession list....)

                  Write to me offlist, when you get a chance, and tell me how you're doing.

                  With love in Christ,
                  Margaret Lark, sinner
                • vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@skynet.be>
                  Dear Elizabeth, You write: I offer some examples of descriptive words that actually exist in the English language, that might be used as a substitute for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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                    Dear Elizabeth,

                    You write: " I offer some examples of descriptive words that
                    actually exist in the English language, that might be used as a
                    substitute for "sergianism" in future commentaries: distasteful,
                    incorrect, improper, annoying, immoral, dangerous, aggravating,
                    evil, frustrating, foolish, inappropriate, illegal, heartbreaking,
                    irritating, problematic, questionable, bad, wrong ..."

                    Let me kindly comment that, except evil, distasteful, heartbreaking
                    and wrong, which are English and which everybody knows, all other
                    adjectives of your list are French.

                    I disagree with your suggestion to use them instead of sergianism,
                    because they are adjectives, and because they express psychological,
                    affective reactions. They cannot be substitutes for an abstract noun
                    which expresses a theological concept. In speaking about the Church,
                    would you suggest, in order to keep the impact strong enough, to
                    replace that term by such adjectives as: tasteful, correct, proper,
                    moral, safe, alleviating, beneficial, satisfactory, intelligent,
                    appropriate, legal, consoling, quietening, clear, unquestionable,
                    good, right…?

                    Regarding your idea that "If you want people to believe this "word"
                    means something, then stick to using it in the context of Patriarch
                    Sergius' legacy within the MP (that IS what 'sergianism' is supposed
                    to be about, isn't it?)", let me say the following:

                    The human mind works by identifying common patterns among apparently
                    separate objects. Showing the efficiency of this in research and
                    intelligence was one of the most important contributions of
                    structuralism in philosophy. This is the way the natural sciences and
                    medicine progress too.

                    When Father Shaw suggest that I am "protestant", he makes the kind of
                    generalisation which is the basic function of intelligence. He
                    analysed the essence of Protestantism and did not restrict himself to
                    call Protestants the formal or nominal adepts of Luther's and
                    associates' legacy. He just decided to call "Protestantism" the
                    attitude by which a man makes his personal religion, which is the
                    essence of Protestantism, by contrast to orthodoxy, in which the
                    faith is one and common. In this, he is correct. One can thus say "In
                    every man's soul, a protestant is sleeping".

                    In the same way, one might say "In every man's soul, a sergianist is
                    sleeping".

                    I attempt to analyse the essence of sergianism. I think it is the
                    belief that, in particularly critical situations, instead of
                    recommending one's soul to God with even more fervour, one must and
                    can defend the divine truth by lying.

                    In other words, you can and must make a deal with the Liar to save
                    the Church of Christ in particular circumstances. It is thus the
                    apology of lie as a supreme and last resort when God has abandoned
                    His people. It is related to the principle that the goal justifies
                    the means. That is why I speak about intellectual sergianism when one
                    claim to defend the truth by fallacies. The affective reactions that
                    this evokes in your mind are interesting, but are altogether a
                    different theme.

                    I try to find out how perverse sergianism is and how it can
                    infiltrate our thinking as a cancer can invade an organism. Remember
                    that Met Sergius was also an ecumenist before the letter (see post
                    7041). I think there is a link between the two heresies. It can be
                    observed in concrete cases (the defenders of the first defend the
                    second and vice versa, as seen on this list). If one analyses the
                    essence of the two heresies, I suspect that one might find out that
                    they have a lot in common.

                    Christ was crucified because the Jews could not accept that the
                    Kingdom is not of this world. They felt betrayed by the claim that
                    the Messiah would not liberate them from the Romans, but from the
                    sin. The main enemy of man, Satan, constantly tries to convince us
                    that the Kingdom is of this world, on the contrary. Met Sergius could
                    not accept that the fight does not go about material things, even
                    when the Faith is persecuted. Even Orthodox find it sometimes hard to
                    accept, in spite of their confessing the creed.

                    Let us thus call a cat a cat and sergianism sergianism. In saying
                    that we should not use the term because it is not defined is joining
                    the MP in its attempt to escape repentance. In addition, in doing so,
                    you are teaching a lesson to our predecessors in our dear Church and
                    to the millions of martyrs that considered sergianism to be
                    sufficiently well defined to die for refusing it. Please see again
                    Father Alexander Lebedeff first manner below.

                    Fighting sergianism is one of the main reasons for our Church to
                    exist. When it disappears with ecumenism and when the MP repents, we
                    will automatically cease to exist as ROCOR and become the orthodox
                    Church of Russia. So, this is not a boring theme for a believer.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                    Sergianism is not the recognition by the Church of the existence of a
                    State dedicated to the eradication of the Church.

                    It is not the recognition by the Church of the authority of a State
                    dedicated to the eradication of the Church.

                    It is not the cooperation of the Church with a State dedicated to the
                    eradication of the Church.

                    Sergianism, in its essence, is the concept that in order for the
                    Church to preserve some semblance of its existence in the face of a
                    State dedicated to the eradication of the Church, it is permissible
                    for the Church (as represented by its ecclesiastical authorities—its
                    hierarchs and senior clergy) to lie—to lie openly and bare-headedly,
                    both to one's flock, and to the entire world.

                    To lie openly about the extent of the persecution of the Church by
                    the State.

                    To lie openly about the very existence of persecution of the Church
                    by the State.

                    To lie openly by denying the Martyrs and Confessors of the Church.

                    Sergianism is the very denial of Christ, Who said "I am the Way, the
                    Truth, and the Life."

                    Sergianism is the very denial of the path of Christ, the path of the
                    Cross, the path of Confessors and Martyrs.

                    Sergianism is the embodiment of the concept that the "end justifies
                    the means," that any means, including those expressly forbidden by
                    God's commandments (specifically, "Thou shalt not bear false
                    witness"), are permissible, as long as the goal is to "save the
                    Church."

                    Sergianism is the affirmation of the concept that it is we who
                    must "save the Church," even at the cost of lying openly and
                    bareheadedly (thus following the path of Satan, the "Father of
                    Lies"), rather than it is us who must be saved by the Church, by our
                    standing fast in the Truth, even in the face of persecution, torture,
                    and martyrdom.

                    As such, Sergianism is contrary to our very calling, as Christians,
                    and must be totally rejected by Orthodox Christians, and it must
                    never be justified.

                    Those who attempt to justify it are, unfortunately, just compounding
                    the sins of their predecessors.

                    The sooner this sad page in contemporary Orthodox history is put
                    behind us, the sooner we can all move forward in proclaiming God's
                    eternal truth.

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "boulia_1 <eledkovsky@h...>"
                    <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                    > I should like to respectfully point out to those brothers and
                    sisters
                    > in Christ for whom English is a second, or (probably) a third (or
                    > maybe even fourth or fifth) language, an error that is repeatedly
                    made
                    > on this list.
                    >
                    > That error is the increasingly frequent use of a made-up (i.e.
                    > non-existent in the English language) word as an adverb or
                    adjective
                    > (see just a few recent examples below).
                    >
                    > It appears that this word has become, for certain posters, a
                    > catch-all, to be used to describe any activity by any person or
                    > ogranization of which he or she disapproves. In a sincere attempt
                    to
                    > help these people convey their opinions more accurately, I offer
                    some
                    > examples of descriptive words that actually excist in the English
                    > language, that might be used as a substitute for "sergianism" in
                    > future commentaries:
                    >
                    > distasteful, incorrect, improper, annoying, immoral, dangerous,
                    > aggravating, evil, frustrating, foolish, inappropriate, illegal,
                    > heartbreaking, irritating, problematic, questionable, bad, wrong ...
                    >
                    > I might also point out that Microsoft Word provides a decent
                    English
                    > language thesaurus, if my short list proves insufficient,
                    inadequate,
                    > woeful...
                    >
                    > Please, dear readers, do not be offended by this comment. As a
                    writer
                    > and editor by profession, I only mean to point out that over-use of
                    > ANY word tends to dilute its impact. That is even more true for a
                    > made-up word like "sergianism," which really has no succinct and
                    > logical definition. The fact that it is bandied about by some
                    people
                    > as frequently as the word "and" renders its meaning vaguer than
                    ever.
                    > If you want people to believe this "word" means something, then
                    stick
                    > to using it in the context of Patriarch Sergius' legacy within the
                    MP
                    > (that IS what 'sergianism' is supposed to be about, isn't it?)
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    > Elizabeth
                    >
                    > (preparing for the onslaught on angry replies from members of one
                    camp
                    > and the silent cheers from everyone else).
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff
                    > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > 2. Do you forget that L Rosnyanskaya was sent to Vl Vitaly by the
                    NY
                    > > Synod with the mission to take control over him and to try to
                    take
                    > > him back to NY under the control of the NY Synod. Is this not
                    > > frightful, to sin in the name of the truth? Is this not
                    sergianism?
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > You attempt here to show that using fallacies can lead to the
                    truth.
                    > > This is a kind of intellectual sergianism.
                    > >
                    > > We all agree that the situation in which we live is very
                    abnormal.
                    > > Who would have predicted that respected priests in the ROCOR
                    would
                    > > promote ecumenism and sergianism?
                    > >
                    > >
                  • stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@netscap
                    ... Do you remember why that happened? Police had been called to the Synod of Bishops in NY. They had been told that Met. Vitaly was either unconscious on the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 1, 2003
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "vkozyreff
                      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                      > Dear father Stefan, bless.
                      >
                      > You write:
                      >
                      > "Metropolitan Vitaly retired and a new Metropolitan was duly elected
                      > and enthroned. At the present time even his own loyal clergy admit
                      > that he (Metropolitan Vitaly)is under the control of Ludmilla
                      > Rasnianskaya, who had during his actual reign as head of the Church
                      > controlled access to him and controlled correspondence with him. She
                      > also attempted to hide, cover up and diminish the extent of his
                      > dementia".
                      >
                      > 1. Do you remember that Vl Vitaly was forcefully taken by police (a
                      > woman police officer) that went to the altar to take him by force for
                      > a psychiatric examination and that the medical conclusion was that Vl
                      > Vitaly was sane and able to perform his duties of first hierarch?


                      Do you remember why that happened?
                      Police had been called to the Synod of Bishops in NY. They had been
                      told that Met. Vitaly was either unconscious on the floor or in grave
                      physical danger. The police supported the Met. when he chose to go to
                      Mansonville with Mrs. Rasnyanskaya. When the police were shown
                      medications for various diseases including dementia which were
                      prescribed by different doctors and dispensed by different pharmacies
                      they feared they could be responsible for the Metropolitans future
                      well being. The US Border police and Canadian police arrived at
                      Mansonville. Here, not like at the Synod they were not allowed
                      immediate access to the Metropolitan. The church doors were locked
                      (?!) and they were delayed. This brought there response level up a
                      number of degrees and they no longer remained cordial. The medical
                      doctors in the hospital found Metropolitan Vitaly sane, and not a
                      threat to himself or any one else, sanity and dementia are different.
                      The letter from ROCiE clerics shows that they now agree that the
                      Metropolitan is in some state of mental deterioration.
                      >
                      > 2. Do you forget that L Rosnyanskaya was sent to Vl Vitaly by the NY
                      > Synod with the mission to take control over him and to try to take
                      > him back to NY under the control of the NY Synod. Is this not
                      > frightful, to sin in the name of the truth? Is this not sergianism?
                      >
                      It seems that it was hoped that the Metropolitan could reside at the
                      Convent Novo Diveevo near NY. It was a concession to the Metropolitans
                      insistence to allow Mrs. Rasnyanskaya to continue being his care
                      taker, declawed and neutralized. As it turned out she took advantage
                      of all parties concerned and having reunited with the Metropolitan she
                      reasserted her previous devious position.


                      > You write:
                      >
                      > "Bishop Varnava was censured, then he was deposed by the Synod of
                      > Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. Metropolitan
                      > Vitaly had no individual power or privileged to reinstate Varnava".
                      >
                      > The deposition of Vl Varnava cannot be taken seriously by any
                      > informed orthodox, knowing that he was judged and condemned without
                      > hearing, on the basis of irrelevant canons in a way that would
                      > horrify any person who knows anything about canons, and knowing that
                      > he was condemned a second time for sins that had already been judged
                      > and pardoned.

                      The Synod of Bishops, including Metropolitan Vitaly censured Bishop
                      Varnava for his activities and the Synod of Bishops deposed him for
                      his support of the schismatic priests and establishment of his own
                      Church Authority in Europe which infringed on other bishop's diocese.
                      He chose not to attend a Synod gathering that was ready to examine his
                      case and there by forfeited his appeals. When a person repents of a
                      sin it is understood that he rejects it forever, if he returns to that
                      sin or he has reservations at the time of repentance, he most
                      certainly may be judged guilty again.



                      >
                      > It is obvious that the real reason for which he was "deposed" was to
                      > prevent him from resisting the new path order in the ROCOR.

                      There is no NEW PATH, other that the one ROCiE has invented.

                      In
                      > conclusion, an orthodox who perceives things as explained above
                      > cannot accept the deposition as valid and cannot be convinced by mere
                      > statements to the contrary. Christians are taught to beware of false
                      > prophets and false teachings and to exert their capacity to identify
                      > them.
                      >

                      > You attempt here to show that using fallacies can lead to the truth.
                      > This is a kind of intellectual sergianism.


                      Varnava was deposed. A Fact.
                      Metropolitan Vitaly retired. A Fact.
                      Metropolitan didn't celebrate the Liturgy. A Fact.
                      Archimandrite Sergious was not properly consecrated. A Fact
                      Vladimir was among those who caused trouble at Holy Trinity Monastery.
                      A Fact.
                      Vladimir's consecration is not valid. A Fact.

                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists is very much skewed. All this wrangling is the work of a very small handful of
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Paul Bartlett wrote:

                        > Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
                        > and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
                        > that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
                        > where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
                        > Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
                        > some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
                        > becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
                        > (which is outside Christianity entirely).

                        Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists
                        is very much skewed. "All this wrangling" is the work of a very small
                        handful of people; they are heard from here, but not too much anywhere
                        else (though HTM would be the exception, as it has been wrangling since
                        1986).

                        However, the sad truth is that "all this" has driven many people away
                        from Orthodoxy and the Church over the years, who had been thinking of
                        joining or returning.

                        My recommendation is to visit an actual parish, rather than going only
                        by what you read here...

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Margaret Lark
                        Glory to God for all things! From: Paul O. BARTLETT Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:49 PM THIS, MESSRS. KOZYREFF, MOSS, AND RUST,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Glory to God for all things!

                          From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@...>
                          Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 3:49 PM

                          THIS, MESSRS. KOZYREFF, MOSS, AND RUST, AND MS. PAHLEN, IS EXACTLY WHY WE
                          NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF WHAT WE THROW AROUND. If this gentleman does remain
                          outside the Faith, it is you and your sympathizers who will have to answer
                          before God. (And probably, unfortunately, me too, for responding in this
                          manner, but I have found this thread increasingly scandalous myself and now
                          feel I must speak, when its fruits become so apparent.)

                          | Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
                          | and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
                          | that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
                          | where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
                          | Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
                          | some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
                          | becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
                          | (which is outside Christianity entirely).

                          Dear Mr. Bartlett, don't go. Don't judge Orthodox Christianity by what you
                          read on the internet. I will be happy to speak with you offlist, if you
                          would like, but would urge you to join another list -- "orthodox-convert,"
                          perhaps, which has over 600 members who, thanks to occasional gentle
                          reminders from the moderator, keep the level of discourse at a remarkably
                          civilized level. The wrangling *is* very discouraging, but I would remind
                          you that the Evil One rejoices to see it, and will never cease attacking
                          Christ's Church.

                          For what it's worth, I have recently affiliated with ROCOR from the GOA. I
                          knew about this controversy, saw it develop from its very beginnings, have
                          studied the claims of the various contenders, and am comfortable with my
                          decision -- for one thing, it brings me great peace, and for another, it is
                          ROCOR that encourages me to struggle with my own sins, iinstead of flinging
                          mud at priests and hierarchs. God alone judges their worthiness to lead His
                          flock; I am nothing more than a simple sheep, and sometimes pretty black, at
                          that.

                          But as a sheep (and incidentally, as someone who knows rather more about
                          real sheep than most people), I also know that all I have to rely on in this
                          life is my Shepherd, and His under-shepherds. It was His guidance I asked
                          when faced with my decision, and the way events have arranged themselves in
                          my life, I have no doubt as to which is His true flock.

                          I hope to hear from you soon.

                          In Christ,
                          Margaret Lark, sinner
                        • janie pyle
                          Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete key when you see certain names. Don t let them dissuade
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you, Margaret, for saying what so many are
                            thinking. Mr. Bartlett, please just use the delete
                            key when you see certain names. Don't let them
                            dissuade you from returning to Orthodoxy. I hope you
                            find a parish (I am in Rocor, also) where you may be
                            nurtured as you travel the "royal path". I had hopes
                            that some of these characters would make a resolution
                            not to put their vitriol in print for the civil New
                            Year but according to recent posts that doesn't appear
                            to be happening. Let us remember to pray for these
                            poor souls who are tares among the wheat. Delete and
                            pray.... Magdalena

                            __________________________________________________
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                          • Peter Okopny
                            I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 2, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am too, dismayed with such badgering going on before Christmas and overall. I thought this line was for FRIENDS of ROCOR ONLY, I believe that these people should be removed from the list since they have proved that they are not!

                              I pray that GOD may help them!

                              One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

                              Peter Okopny
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Fr. John R. Shaw
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com ; orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 7:32 AM
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: TELLING THE TRUTH IS DANGEROUS...


                              Paul Bartlett wrote:

                              > Just from a brief membership in these two mailing lists ("synod"
                              > and "rocor") I am beginning to wonder if there is so much contention
                              > that if God does guide me back to Orthodox Christianity then I wonder
                              > where I will hang my hat. I was orginally baptized at Holy
                              > Transfiguration Monastery, which then under the ROCOR but is now under
                              > some other jurisdiction. All this wrangling in American Orthodoxy is
                              > becoming very discouraging. Maybe I should just stay where I now am
                              > (which is outside Christianity entirely).

                              Let me point out that the impression one gets from these e-mail lists
                              is very much skewed. "All this wrangling" is the work of a very small
                              handful of people; they are heard from here, but not too much anywhere
                              else (though HTM would be the exception, as it has been wrangling since
                              1986).

                              However, the sad truth is that "all this" has driven many people away
                              from Orthodoxy and the Church over the years, who had been thinking of
                              joining or returning.

                              My recommendation is to visit an actual parish, rather than going only
                              by what you read here...

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Margaret Lark
                              Glory to God for all things! From: Peter Okopny Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM ... And if there s *one* thing you
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 4, 2003
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                                Glory to God for all things!

                                From: "Peter Okopny" <peter.okopny@...>
                                Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:55 PM

                                | One very sinful and annoyed Cossack,

                                And if there's *one* thing you *don't* want to do, it's tick off a Cossack.
                                ;-)

                                In Christ,
                                Margaret Lark, sinner
                              • Hristofor
                                ... The so-called new path (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 11, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
                                  >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
                                  >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
                                  >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began making
                                  >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out the
                                  >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop Anthony
                                  >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations of
                                  >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
                                  >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at various
                                  >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that there has
                                  >been any change.

                                  The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be compared
                                  to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling, spanning
                                  the centuries:

                                  Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian reforms and
                                  some even went as far as committing suicide.

                                  In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have foretold the
                                  pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they: either
                                  by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World Did Not End.

                                  In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by the
                                  pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union between
                                  Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-wingers, "first
                                  they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far behind!
                                  You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a few days,
                                  and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact, the only
                                  talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date for their
                                  Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be anathema to
                                  all Orthodox bishops.

                                  Hristofor
                                • goossir <irene.goossens@cec.eu.int>
                                  Dear Hristofor, You write: « The so-called new path (a red herring if I ever saw one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 13, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Hristofor,

                                    You write: « The so-called "new path" (a red herring if I ever saw
                                    one) can be compared to other hysterical claims of pending doom …..».

                                    The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John
                                    Shaw is hardly a product of our imagination.

                                    "--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, " Fr. Seraphim Holland wrote:
                                    I have not had experienced much hatred or innuendo for a while, so I
                                    want to say plainly: I would completely accept union with the MP if
                                    my synod of bishops so desires it. A more likely scenario is
                                    liturgical communion, which I would also accept with great joy.
                                    Father John Shaw replied (post 7395): It seems to me that the two
                                    sides are getting closer and closer to each other all the time.
                                    In Christ
                                    Fr. John R. Shaw"

                                    The rapprochement with the MP is taking place, despite so numerous
                                    postings on this list, (and not the least, the last interview of
                                    Alexis II, posted by V. Kozyreff), demonstrating the lies and deceits
                                    of the MP, which is in no way amending itself but wishes to shush any
                                    allusion to sergianism and ecumenism.
                                    We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
                                    they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
                                    Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
                                    sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
                                    anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
                                    the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
                                    from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
                                    rapprochement will advance, ...")
                                    And in:
                                    "We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
                                    Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
                                    coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
                                    Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
                                    Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
                                    eng.html

                                    Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
                                    ROCOR.

                                    In Christ,

                                    Irina Pahlen

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > At 10:19 AM 1/1/2003, you wrote:
                                    > >JRS: This endless, but vague, talk of a "new path in the ROCOR" may
                                    > >seem very convenient to justify doing what one pleases. But when,
                                    > >exactly, did the "new path" take effect? Vladimir Moss began
                                    making
                                    > >this accusation over two decades ago; he particularly singled out
                                    the
                                    > >late Archbishop Anthony of Geneva as a culprit, but Archbishop
                                    Anthony
                                    > >of Geneva was responsible for the [initially secret] consecrations
                                    of
                                    > >Varnava and Lazarus. It seems to me the very fact that these
                                    > >accusations, brought forth by various "interested parties" at
                                    various
                                    > >times since at least 1980 or 1981, if not earlier, belie that
                                    there has
                                    > >been any change.
                                    >
                                    > The so-called "new path" (a red herring of I ever saw one) can be
                                    compared
                                    > to other hysterical claims of pending doom. Here is a sampling,
                                    spanning
                                    > the centuries:
                                    >
                                    > Old-believers thought the world was ending with the nikonian
                                    reforms and
                                    > some even went as far as committing suicide.
                                    >
                                    > In the US, there have been untold numbers of sects which have
                                    foretold the
                                    > pending "End of the World". The only thing that has ended was they:
                                    either
                                    > by committing suicide or becoming a laughing stock when the World
                                    Did Not End.
                                    >
                                    > In the 90's, many Orthodox (myself among them), were concerned by
                                    the
                                    > pope's desire for at least "pascal union" if not liturgical union
                                    between
                                    > Rome and the Protestants by 2000. "See," said the far right-
                                    wingers, "first
                                    > they will force RC Pascha on us and then full union will not be far
                                    behind!
                                    > You wait and see." Well, here we are, waiting to ring in '03 in a
                                    few days,
                                    > and I rarely hear mention about a common Pascha anywhere. In fact,
                                    the only
                                    > talk that I have heard is among the Protestants, for a fixed date
                                    for their
                                    > Easter. That probably would be anathema to Rome, and should be
                                    anathema to
                                    > all Orthodox bishops.
                                    >
                                    > Hristofor
                                  • Hristofor
                                    ... No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the musings of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 14, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 10:40 AM 1/13/2003, you wrote:
                                      >Dear Hristofor,
                                      >The recent dialogue below between Fr Seraphim Holland and Fr John Shaw is
                                      >hardly a product of our imagination.

                                      No offense to Frs Seraphim and John, but they are expressing their own
                                      opinions and views of the current situation. With the exception of the
                                      musings of Vl. Amvrosi and the German newspaper interview with Vl Mark, and
                                      etc, all of which have been thoroughly discussed on this list, I have yet
                                      to hear any other ROCA bishop express similar pro union views, either in
                                      the year that I have been on this list or elsewhere. Not one other bishop.
                                      Do one or two bishops set the course and direction of the whole Church? The
                                      more so since Vl Amvrosy is not a member of the Synod and thus doesn't even
                                      attend the more frequent synodal meetings. As a matter of fact, 2 bishops
                                      in separate private conversations have expressed to me a
                                      less-then-optimistic picture about the speed for union or communion.

                                      >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                                      Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for the last
                                      80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                                      _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be The
                                      Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone happens to
                                      have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically bring the
                                      total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have heard the
                                      adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I have
                                      already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or drifted
                                      away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because through
                                      the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian Orthodox no
                                      longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these people who
                                      have drifted away?

                                      >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that
                                      >they accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.
                                      >Father Seraphim writes that he is ready to a complete union with the
                                      >sergianist-ecumenist MP if the synod desires it, in spite of the
                                      >anathemas of 1983 and 1918. Fr John is confirming the probability of
                                      >the rapprochement which is already seen in the October 2000 letter
                                      >from the Synod to the Patriarch of Serbia: "... the desired
                                      >rapprochement will advance, ...")

                                      BTW, Metropolitan Vitaly signed the letter to the Serbian Patriarch, did he
                                      not? Or did he "realise this mistake and remove his signature from that
                                      letter as well." There have been so many ukases followed by retractions
                                      from Mansonville with his purported signature, that it is hard to keep
                                      track...

                                      Mr Kozyrev's arguments aside for correcting a mistake, I wonder how many
                                      ukazes ROCA has issued in it's 80 year history that have later had
                                      signatures retracted from them? Certainly, there have been ukazes changing,
                                      abolishing or amending previous ones, as a situation may warrant, but those
                                      were always done with a majority of the bishops and not unilaterally. Since
                                      Mr Kozyreff has dismissed Fr Alexander's 3 reasons for signature
                                      retraction, what then could possibly have changed Vl. Varnava's mind? I
                                      presume all the bishops were privy to all the same information: they are
                                      all learned and knowledgeable about the current state of World Orthodoxy
                                      when the issue of the letter to Patr. Pavle arose. On the other hand, I
                                      don't know of any major scandal or crisis which erupted in the Serbian
                                      Church directly after our October sobor which would have changed Vl.
                                      Varnava's mind so abruptly.

                                      >We see now our priest acknowledging it in the face of the world that they
                                      >accept with joy communion with the heretical MP.

                                      Well, only you and a few others operate under the premise that the MP is
                                      heretical.

                                      One of the oddest parts to phantom about the schism (assuming that the
                                      reason for it is union/communion with Moscow, which I sincerely doubt) is
                                      that most of the issues and concerns troubling the French have been
                                      occurring in one form or another for years, without much ado. And
                                      then--boom!--in an instant, the French are in schism. For instance, just
                                      before the split, right there on rue Claude Lorrain, the Moscow
                                      myhrr-bearing icon of Tsar-Martyr Nikolai II is brought from Russia and is
                                      in our Parisian parish to be venerated. Fast-forward two years later and
                                      now some of the same people who venerated the icon are saying that the MP
                                      is heretical!!

                                      >And in:
                                      >"We acknowledge that various views on the course of the Church of
                                      >Russia exist among us, and it happens that these views do not always
                                      >coincide". (Epistle of the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox
                                      >Church Outside of Russia To the Divinely Saved Flock in the
                                      >Homeland). In http://www.holyvirginmaryrocor.org/epistle10-31-01-
                                      >eng.html
                                      >
                                      >Well, dear Hristofor, this is what we call the new path/views in the
                                      >ROCOR.

                                      During the years of Soviet power, I never imagined how the USSR would meet
                                      its demise and I certainly didn't think that it would happen the way it
                                      would. As much as I would have loved for the USSR to disappear and the
                                      clock turn back to 1917, it just didn't happen that way. Hatred of the USSR
                                      and all the bad things which happened to Russia in the past century should
                                      not turn in to an illogical stumbling block which paralyzes all present and
                                      future activity.

                                      Labelling everything from the current activities of the MP to banning
                                      Christmas in an American school "sergianism" really belittles the true
                                      meaning of the word and does a disservice to all those who spoke out
                                      against Metropolitan Sergius and were subsequently martyred.

                                      Hristofor
                                    • wn4732 <wn4732@yahoo.com>
                                      ... the last ... The ... happens to ... bring the ... heard the ... have ... drifted ... through ... Orthodox no ... people who ... Finally a person with his
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 15, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com,

                                        Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:

                                        > >The rapprochement with the MP is taking place,
                                        > Isn't that what all we Russian emigrees have hoped and prayed for
                                        the last
                                        > 80 years? A lady in our parish now has relatives spread through 5
                                        > _different_ Russian Orthodox jurisdictions, each one claiming to be
                                        The
                                        > Russian Orthodox Church. I myself have them in 3. If someone
                                        happens to
                                        > have some Ukrainian relatives as well, that could theoretically
                                        bring the
                                        > total up to 8 or 9 jurisdictions. Is this normal? Surely you have
                                        heard the
                                        > adage "Concur and divide?" Looks like that is what is happening. I
                                        have
                                        > already mentioned how many Orthodox souls in the US have fallen or
                                        drifted
                                        > away due to marriage etc. How many more need to be lost, because
                                        through
                                        > the tragedy of the Revolution and the Diaspora, the Russian
                                        Orthodox no
                                        > longer speak with one mind and voice? Who will answer for these
                                        people who
                                        > have drifted away?

                                        Finally a person with his head on straight! God Bless you Sir and may
                                        your words penetrate the stubborn hearts among the Orthodox Diaspora.

                                        Peter
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