Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] the true Helmsman of the Russian Church

Expand Messages
  • for4z@aol.com
    Concerning open churches around that time period (C. 1927), it is interesting to note that the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow was actually owned and
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 8, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Concerning open churches around that time period (C. 1927), it is interesting to note that the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow was actually owned and used strictly by the Renovationists, which drew very little people to their services. The Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood in St. Petersburg, on the other hand, was the main Cathderal and cathedra of Metropolitan Joseph and the "non-commemorators." On the tour of the cathedral the guide even mentioned Metropolitan Joseph to us, citing the catacomb church that he later served.

      -Nick Zaharov



      Michael N. wrote:

      Enough were open for propaganda purposes and for those priests who recognized Metr.Sergius and his declaration. The KGB couldn't handle all the open Churches at the time.

      Fr. John Shaw wrote: Thus for example in 1927, the cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was still standing and still open for worship (it was demolished in 1931 and rebuilt a few years ago). In St. Petersburg, St. Isaac's cathedral was still open (closed in 1928, though); so was the Kazan cathedral, that later was made into an antireligious museum. The Church
      of the Redeemer on the Blood, which today, though restored, still has not been restored to the Church, was at that time still open for worship.
    • ourlittlecity@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/8/2002 6:04:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Thank-you for this web-address, it was a most helpful read. Rdr. John [Non-text portions of
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 8, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 12/8/2002 6:04:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        vladimir.kozyreff@... writes:

        > http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/METROPOLITAN%20SERGIUS%20AND%20THE%
        > 20FIRST%20CHURCH%20REVOLUTION.htm
        >

        Thank-you for this web-address, it was a most helpful read.

        Rdr. John


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hristofor
        ... This thread leads me to questions of historical nature. I recently read in a post-Soviet book on the Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood (SPb), that
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 9, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          for4z@... wrote:

          >Concerning open churches around that time period (C. 1927), it is interesting to note that the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow was actually owned and used strictly by the Renovationists, which drew very little people to their services. The Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood in St. Petersburg, on the other hand, was the main Cathderal and cathedra of Metropolitan Joseph and the "non-commemorators." On the tour of the cathedral the guide even mentioned Metropolitan Joseph to us, citing the catacomb church that he later served.
          >
          >-Nick Zaharov
          >
          This thread leads me to questions of historical nature. I recently read
          in a post-Soviet book on the Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood
          (SPb), that before 1917, the cathedral was only opne for services
          several times a year: the anniversary of the assassination of Tsar
          ALexander II, the church feast (Pascha, I beleive) and a few other feast
          days. Does anyone know if this is correct?

          Was a full cycle of services kept in some or all of the Kremlin
          cathedrals on a daily basis (like Synod or Jordanville) or only on
          Sundays or only if the Royal Family were staying in Moscow? If there
          were services, could anyone attend and consider, for example, the
          Cathedral of the Archangel, to be their "home parish"? What about other
          churches throughout Moscow and the other cities? Where there services
          only on Sundays/Maj & Minor Feaasts or is this just an innovation here
          in the West and there were daily services in all churches?

          I have asked older emigres, but most were already born in the West or
          were too young to remember and never had inquired of their parents.

          Hristofor
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... interesting to note that the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow was actually owned and used strictly by the Renovationists, which drew very little
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 9, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            for4z@... wrote:
            >
            > >Concerning open churches around that time period (C. 1927), it is
            interesting to note that the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow
            was actually owned and used strictly by the Renovationists, which drew
            very little people to their services.

            JRS: This is correct; the church had been handed over to the "Living
            Church" by the Soviets.

            >The Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood in St. Petersburg, on the
            other hand, was the main Cathderal and cathedra of Metropolitan Joseph
            and the "non-commemorators." On the tour of the cathedral the guide
            even mentioned Metropolitan Joseph to us, citing the catacomb church
            that he later served.

            I do not know if this is true or not, but if it was, it did not
            continue verylong. The church of the Redeemer on the Blood (Spas na
            Krovi) was also handed over to the "Living Church", according to the
            words of an eye-witness, now departed this life, to me some years ago.
            > >
            > >-Nick Zaharov
            > >
            > This thread leads me to questions of historical nature. I recently
            read
            > in a post-Soviet book on the Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood
            > (SPb), that before 1917, the cathedral was only opne for services
            > several times a year: the anniversary of the assassination of Tsar
            > ALexander II, the church feast (Pascha, I beleive) and a few other
            feast
            > days. Does anyone know if this is correct?

            This is false. This story is being put forward by those who have been
            resisting calls for the church to be returned to the faithful.

            Evidence that the Church of the Redeemer on the Blood *was* open for
            regular services can be found, incidentally, in the book "Khram Bozhij
            i Tserkovnyja Sluzhby", which was written by the pastor of that church,
            and illustrated with photographs of various services as he performed
            them there--in St. Petersburg before the revolution. The book was
            reprinted by photo-offset in Jordanville in the early 1960's.

            > Was a full cycle of services kept in some or all of the Kremlin
            > cathedrals on a daily basis (like Synod or Jordanville) or only on
            > Sundays or only if the Royal Family were staying in Moscow?

            The Kremlin cathedrals all had regular daily services, and there was
            also a monastery (destroyed in the 1930's) of the Miracle of the
            Archangel Michael, which had a full cycle of monastic services.

            A description of the daily Divine Liturgy in the Dormition cathedral of
            the Kremlin was given some years ago by the late Dr. Johann v. Gardner
            (at one time Bishop Philip, but he later left the ranks of the clergy
            to marry), who, as a boy, had lived in Moscow and often would attend
            those services in the Dormition cathedral. At the weekday services, the
            entire singing was in unison and according to Znamenny chant, which was
            of particular interest to him.

            If there
            > were services, could anyone attend and consider, for example, the
            > Cathedral of the Archangel, to be their "home parish"? What about
            other
            > churches throughout Moscow and the other cities? Where there services
            > only on Sundays/Maj & Minor Feaasts or is this just an innovation
            here
            > in the West and there were daily services in all churches?

            In Russia before the revolution, one did not "pick and choose" one's
            home parish: that was determined by where one lived. Specific streets
            and houses in Moscow belonged to a given parish. One could only marry
            in one's own parish, for example, and the clergy knew exactly which
            houses were "theirs" to visit and bless at Theophany and Pascha.

            > I have asked older emigres, but most were already born in the West or
            > were too young to remember and never had inquired of their parents.

            Fortunately I was able to talk to older people still alive in the
            1960's and 1970's who did remember these things. And only a few months
            ago, a man in our parish, in his 90's, reposed, who had known Patriarch
            St. Tikhon.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Hristofor
            ... Thanks for the correction and all the historical information. ... At Pascha? What was done at Pascha? Hmm, so if you didn t like the priest (or if you
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 9, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

              >>in a post-Soviet book on the Cathedral of the Redeemer on the Blood
              >>(SPb), that before 1917, the cathedral was only opne for services
              >>several times a year: the anniversary of the assassination of Tsar
              >>ALexander II, the church feast (Pascha, I beleive) and a few other
              >>
              >>
              >feast
              >
              >
              >>days. Does anyone know if this is correct?
              >>
              >>
              >
              >This is false. This story is being put forward by those who have been
              >resisting calls for the church to be returned to the faithful.
              >
              Thanks for the correction and all the historical information.

              >In Russia before the revolution, one did not "pick and choose" one's
              >home parish: that was determined by where one lived. Specific streets
              >and houses in Moscow belonged to a given parish. One could only marry
              >in one's own parish, for example, and the clergy knew exactly which
              >houses were "theirs" to visit and bless at Theophany and Pascha.
              >
              At Pascha? What was done at Pascha?

              Hmm, so if you didn't like the priest (or if you were a priest and you
              didn't like your bishop) you couldn't pick up and change parishes (or
              dioceses), as has been custom (alas!) here in the West! What an eye-opener!!

              On a different note regarding lent and fasting, I found out that a
              Serbian aquaintance has an Orthodox grandfather and Catholic (Croatian)
              grandmother in Yugoslavia; though the children are Orthodox and all the
              Orthodox fasts and feasts are kept. When an Orthodox lent starts, the
              grandmother sterilizes all the dishes and cooking utensils, lest any
              meat or diary products remain on them. Is this a local tradition or is
              this a widespread practice, either in Serbia or in other Orthodox
              countries? I do recall reading in Orthodox America that in pre-1917
              Russia, people would cover paintings during Great Lent, the houses would
              be scrubbed in and out, of course the theatre and all entertainment
              would be stopped, but I never heard anything about sterilizing the dishes.

              Hristofor




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... It was the custom for the clergy to visit and bless homes, singing a short Paschal moleben in each house. This was also, like the Theophany blessing of
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 9, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hristofor wrote:

                > At Pascha? What was done at Pascha?

                It was the custom for the clergy to visit and bless homes, singing a
                short "Paschal moleben" in each house. This was also, like the
                Theophany blessing of homes, a source of income for the parish priest,
                so it was determined according to parish boundaries.

                > Hmm, so if you didn't like the priest (or if you were a priest and
                you
                > didn't like your bishop) you couldn't pick up and change parishes (or
                > dioceses), as has been custom (alas!) here in the West! What an eye-
                opener!!

                A parishioner could *attend* other parishes, of course, and also move
                to a location that belonged to another parish if desired.

                A priest was ordained and assigned to a given parish, where he stayed
                unless reassigned by the bishop. Theoretically, that is still the rule
                everywhere...

                > On a different note regarding lent and fasting, I found out that a
                > Serbian aquaintance has an Orthodox grandfather and Catholic
                (Croatian)
                > grandmother in Yugoslavia; though the children are Orthodox and all
                the
                > Orthodox fasts and feasts are kept. When an Orthodox lent starts, the
                > grandmother sterilizes all the dishes and cooking utensils, lest any
                > meat or diary products remain on them. Is this a local tradition or
                is
                > this a widespread practice, either in Serbia or in other Orthodox
                > countries?

                This is practiced among the Russian Old Believers.

                >I do recall reading in Orthodox America that in pre-1917
                > Russia, people would cover paintings during Great Lent,

                That is a new one to me; but it may have been influenced by the Latin
                custom of veiling images in churches--perhaps in areas with a Polish
                population?

                > the houses would
                > be scrubbed in and out,

                This was motivated by the name "Clean Monday", and so on, for the days
                in the first week of Lent. "Clean" ("Chisty") was interpreted as
                meaning "thoroughly scrubbed".

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Hristofor
                ... What a nice custom. Is it done anywherein the West? I have never heard of it in my thirtysomething yrs. Hristofor
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                  >It was the custom for the clergy to visit and bless homes, singing a
                  >short "Paschal moleben" in each house. This was also, like the
                  >Theophany blessing of homes, a source of income for the parish priest,
                  >so it was determined according to parish boundaries.
                  >
                  What a nice custom. Is it done anywherein the West? I have never heard
                  of it in my thirtysomething yrs.

                  Hristofor
                • Theodora Wright
                  snip ... snip Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this every year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to do so. He
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    snip
                    > >It was the custom for the clergy to visit and bless homes, singing a
                    > >short "Paschal moleben" in each house. This was also, like the
                    > >Theophany blessing of homes, a source of income for the parish priest,
                    > >so it was determined according to parish boundaries.
                    > >
                    > What a nice custom. Is it done anywherein the West? I have never heard
                    > of it in my thirtysomething yrs.
                    >
                    > Hristofor
                    snip

                    Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this every
                    year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to do so.
                    He blesses all the homes in our Parish. I thought this common.


                    Theodora in the mountains
                  • Hristofor
                    ... Fr john was speaking of a pascal house blessing, in addition to the Theophany blessing. Hristofor
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Theodora Wright wrote:

                      >Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this every
                      >year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to do so.
                      >He blesses all the homes in our Parish. I thought this common.
                      >
                      >
                      >Theodora in the mountains
                      >
                      Fr john was speaking of a pascal house blessing, in addition to the
                      Theophany blessing.

                      Hristofor
                    • Theodora Wright
                      snip ... snip Oh yes I see but I have friends that do this also. I guess it may depend on the size of the Parish and/or distance....etc. There are many
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        snip
                        > >Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this every
                        > >year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to do so.
                        > >He blesses all the homes in our Parish. I thought this common.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Theodora in the mountains
                        > >
                        > Fr john was speaking of a pascal house blessing, in addition to the
                        > Theophany blessing.
                        >
                        > Hristofor
                        >
                        snip

                        Oh yes I see but I have friends that do this also. I guess it may depend
                        on the size of the Parish and/or distance....etc. There are many customs
                        that we all enjoy through out the year. As a convert to Orthodoxy I was
                        amazed that many of my family customs fit right into Orthodoxy. Perhaps I
                        am not alone in this. The cleaning of houses fit the Fasts, the changing of
                        dishes (when one can) and certain foods that are eaten at certain times. I
                        can still close my eyes and smell the mincemeat pies cooking in the kitchen
                        for Christmas ....the little golden choc. coins that are given ( both in
                        Orthodox and Jewish Festival of Lights)...and many more....I think combining
                        these customs is wonderful and taking Orthodoxy into ones full life be they
                        Southern Orthodox USA or where ever. How many observe St. Nicholas Feast
                        with the giving of little things to neighborhood children? I find this to
                        be delightful and in no way offensive to the Navitity Fast. Others might.
                        I find packing up bags of extra food and taking it to the local collection
                        center on this Feast Day also a good tradition. Many take little gifts to
                        hospitals especially the children 's wings. I am sure here in USA Orthodox
                        Navitity flourishes but perhaps many don't share what their customs are. We
                        are not so distance in time as we think . Pascal and Navitity customs are
                        beautiful....perhaps some others can share some with us.

                        A blessed Fast to all and peace on earth to men of good will

                        Theodora
                      • Joachim Wertz
                        I recall reading a discussion about this on the Serbian list Svetosavlje some time ago. Apparently a paschal house blessing is done in parts of Serbia.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I recall reading a discussion about this on the Serbian list "Svetosavlje"
                          some time ago. Apparently a paschal house blessing is done in parts of
                          Serbia. However it seems to have actually replaced the the Theophany
                          blessing in some areas. Probably because it was easier for the priest to
                          visit remote homes in the spring than in the middle of winter.

                          In Christ,

                          Joachim wertz

                          From: Hristofor <hristofor@...>
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:53:22 -0500
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Church-life in pre-1917 Russia


                          Theodora Wright wrote:

                          >Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this every
                          >year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to do so.
                          >He blesses all the homes in our Parish. I thought this common.
                          >
                          >
                          >Theodora in the mountains
                          >
                          Fr john was speaking of a pascal house blessing, in addition to the
                          Theophany blessing.

                          Hristofor


                          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • stefanvpavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@netscap
                          There are in fact Nativity, Theophany and Pascha/Easter visits appointed for clergy to visit parish members, it is almost immpossible to visit all the people
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 10, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            There are in fact Nativity, Theophany and Pascha/Easter visits
                            appointed for clergy to visit parish members, it is almost
                            immpossible to visit all the people everytime. Most priest will then
                            vist one set of fathful at one or another of the feast times and then
                            rotate year by year to hit all. Some close friends or "founders" get
                            a visit more often!





                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Wertz <wertz@p...>
                            wrote:
                            > I recall reading a discussion about this on the Serbian
                            list "Svetosavlje"
                            > some time ago. Apparently a paschal house blessing is done in parts
                            of
                            > Serbia. However it seems to have actually replaced the the Theophany
                            > blessing in some areas. Probably because it was easier for the
                            priest to
                            > visit remote homes in the spring than in the middle of winter.
                            >
                            > In Christ,
                            >
                            > Joachim wertz
                            >
                            > From: Hristofor <hristofor@m...>
                            > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:53:22 -0500
                            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Church-life in pre-1917 Russia
                            >
                            >
                            > Theodora Wright wrote:
                            >
                            > >Forgive but I am confused. We have our home blessed like this
                            every
                            > >year....Fr. comes all the way up here with Matushka and others to
                            do so.
                            > >He blesses all the homes in our Parish. I thought this common.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Theodora in the mountains
                            > >
                            > Fr john was speaking of a pascal house blessing, in addition to the
                            > Theophany blessing.
                            >
                            > Hristofor
                            >
                            >
                            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.