Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Why the MP Apologetics?

Expand Messages
  • Joshua Fraese
    ... theological ... incorrect. ... in the ... without ... (valid in ... the ... provide a ... by ... professes ... Dear Hristofor, Metropolitan Anthony wrote
    Message 1 of 73 , Oct 11, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
      > I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have no
      theological
      > background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct or
      incorrect.
      > However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.
      >
      > First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
      in the
      > Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and those
      without
      > Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"
      (valid in
      > your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent if
      the
      > person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you please
      provide a
      > quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptism
      by
      > heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the person
      professes
      > the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?
      >

      Dear Hristofor,

      Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
      reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
      below:

      "Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
      second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
      sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
      like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
      putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
      conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
      Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
      John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
      remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
      side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
      those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
      believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
      alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
      edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
      the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
      second or third rite), but through the operation of another
      sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
      chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
      Nestorians and Donatists.)"

      You can read this essay in its entirety at:
      http://www.stvladimirs.ca/articles/economia-reception-converts.html

      I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
      whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
      theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
      usage of economia.

      - Joshua Fraese
    • Joshua Fraese
      ... theological ... incorrect. ... in the ... without ... (valid in ... the ... provide a ... by ... professes ... Dear Hristofor, Metropolitan Anthony wrote
      Message 73 of 73 , Oct 11, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
        > I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have no
        theological
        > background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct or
        incorrect.
        > However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.
        >
        > First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
        in the
        > Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and those
        without
        > Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"
        (valid in
        > your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent if
        the
        > person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you please
        provide a
        > quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptism
        by
        > heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the person
        professes
        > the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?
        >

        Dear Hristofor,

        Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
        reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
        below:

        "Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
        second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
        sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
        like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
        putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
        conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
        Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
        John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
        remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
        side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
        those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
        believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
        alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
        edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
        the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
        second or third rite), but through the operation of another
        sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
        chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
        Nestorians and Donatists.)"

        You can read this essay in its entirety at:
        http://www.stvladimirs.ca/articles/economia-reception-converts.html

        I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
        whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
        theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
        usage of economia.

        - Joshua Fraese
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.