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Re: Praying with heretics – so what?

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  • Reader John
    Fr. Alexander s military analogy does not hold up. He wrote: If I were an officer in the US Army, and received an order from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 1, 2002
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      Fr. Alexander's military analogy does not hold up. He wrote:

      "If I were an officer in the US Army, and received an order from
      the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff (sic) to appear the next
      day in Washington for a meeting--I have no option to decline."

      The reality is that if the Chairman of the JCS ordered an officer to
      report to him in Washington the next day, transportation would be
      expeditiously provided to the aforementioned officer.

      I am not involved in the disputes with the French clergy, I just read
      the list about these events in Europe. I do not live in Europe
      (though I did live there in the early 80's for four years) and
      thus am not a member of any European diocese (of course neither is
      Fr. Alexander). In fact, I live in Georgia, which according to Fr.
      Alexander's bizarre post (31183) on Paradosis qualifies me as

      "A … tatooed (sic) rock-music-loving red-neck cracker
      neo-Pharisees
      from Georgia…" This must be because I disagree with him.

      I make no judgment on the situation of the clergy in France, but,
      correct me if I am wrong, no transportation was given or offered to
      the clergy who were summoned to the meeting with Vl. Lavr. Why does
      Fr. Alexander avoid mentioning this important detail?

      Fr. Alexander:

      "In the military, failure to obey orders of superior officers is
      one of the most serious of crimes, for obvious reasons--especially
      for junior officers, since they are required to set a good example
      for their troops."

      You are mistaken in writing this statement Father. I wonder have you
      ever served in the military? Judging by your age, you would have
      been subject to the draft during the Vietnam War.

      The most serious offenses in the military are murder, rape and
      robbery. Anyone who commits these offenses will certainly be tried
      by a general court martial (the highest level court to try
      offenses). On the other hand, the punishment for disobeying a
      superior officer can range from verbal reprimand, to non-judicial
      punishment (Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), to a
      lesser court martial.

      Fr. Alexander:

      "Mutiny is a capital offense in virtually every military
      organization, since it goes against the entire concept of a
      hierarchical structure--the chain of command, which requires
      obedience to orders and strict discipline."

      Fr. Alexander implies that the French clergy are mutinous. Does he
      really think that their offense is so great that they should be
      executed? After all, a capital offense is one in which the death
      penalty may be imposed. Please explain your thoughts here Father.
      Or is this just another case of you overstating your position?

      In Christ,
      Rdr John

      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
      wrote:
      > This matter is so simple that it boggles the mind that someone can
      not
      > understand.
      >
      > The Orthodox Church is **hierarchical**.
      >
      > This means that the lower clergy are under obedience and subject to
      the
      > discipline of their hierarchical superiors.
      >
      > If your superiors summon you to a meeting, be it in another city or
      no--you go.
      >
      > Period.
      >
      > If I were working as a manager at IBM in Los Angeles, and received
      a
      > directive from the Chairman of IBM to appear at a meeting in
      Seattle in two
      > days--I would have to be there.
      >
      > If I were an officer in the US Army, and received an order from the
      > Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff to appear the next day in
      Washington
      > for a meeting--I have no option to decline.
      >
      > As a priest of the Russian Church Abroad, if I receive a directive
      from my
      > Ruling Bishop, or from the Synod of Bishops, to appear in such and
      such a
      > place at such and such a time--I would be there,come what may.
      >
      > Again, this is so simple, it hardly needs to be explained.
      >
      > In the military, failure to obey orders of superior officers is one
      of the
      > most serious of crimes, for obvious reasons--especially for junior
      > officers, since they are required to set a good example for their
      troops.
      >
      > Mutiny is a capital offense in virtually every military
      organization, since
      > it goes against the entire concept of a hierarchical structure--the
      chain
      > of command, which requires obedience to orders and strict
      discipline.
      >
      > The Church is no different.
      >
      > Priests are like officers in a military organization. Although our
      battle
      > is not against flesh and blood, but against the demonic powers, we
      are
      > still all "warriors" in the army of God, as are the heavenly
      powers, who
      > have a very clear hierarchical structure, with Archangel Michael--
      the
      > Archistratig--Archstrategos--Taxiarch--Commander in Chief of the
      Heavenly
      > Hosts.
      >
      > So, the willful disobedience of the European clergy to respond to a
      summons
      > of the Holy Synod of the Church Abroad, to which they had given an
      oath of
      > obedience and loyalty, is a gross violation of ecclesiastical
      discipline
      > for which they must suffer the consequences.
      >
      > Next point.
      >
      > Serge calls the suspensions a "sentence," and complains about the
      injustice
      > of these clergy being sentenced in absentia, without being heard or
      > canonically tried.
      >
      > This is absolutely incorrect.
      >
      > A bishop, upon hearing of misbehavior by a clergyman, has the
      authority,
      > and, in fact, the responsibility to suspend that clergyman--without
      a
      > hearing or ecclesiastical trial.
      >
      > This is normal in most other fields.
      >
      > A policeman suspected of acting improperly can and would be
      suspended by
      > his superiors--prior to a hearing.
      >
      > A teacher suspected of acting improperly can and would be suspended
      by his
      > superiors--prior to a hearing.
      >
      > In the Church--it is the same.
      >
      > The clergyman (like the policeman or the teacher) has the right to
      demand a
      > formal hearing on the matter, or one can be scheduled by his
      superiors.
      >
      > However, during the time of the suspension, prior to a hearing (or
      a
      > trial)--the person in question is **suspended**--and forbidden to
      perform
      > his normal duties. A policeman under suspension must turn in his
      badge and
      > gun, for example, and is forbidden to perform police work.
      >
      > A clergyman under suspension must hang up his epitrachelion and may
      not
      > perform any services as a clergyman--not even give a blessing.
      >
      > Those are the rules.
      >
      > And the rules also state that if a clergyman while under suspension
      dares
      > to perform any services as a clergyman--then he is subject to
      immediate
      > deposition from clerical orders--without any hearing or trial.
      >
      > All he has to do is perform a service or simply give a blessing--
      even
      > once--and he is out.
      >
      > Period.
      >
      > So, the question is--did the European clergy who were disobedient
      to their
      > hierarchical authorities and spurned a summons to a meeting with
      the Deputy
      > First Hierarch and Secretary of the Synod, ignore the suspension
      placed on
      > them, not just by their Ruling Bishop--who has the authority on his
      own to
      > suspend any priest in his diocese--but by the entire Hierarchical
      Synod,
      > and did they continue to serve?
      >
      > If the answer is yes, then they were rightfully and canonically
      deposed,
      > even without a hearing or ecclesiastical trial.
      >
      > With love in Christ,
      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
    • boulia_1
      Dear John, To respond to only one point you made, since I am a amember of a ... read ... to ... does ... If you did live in Europe, you should realize it s not
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 5, 2002
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        Dear John,

        To respond to only one point you made, since I am a amember of a
        European ROCOR diocese (in good standing) and do live in Europe... :

        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Reader John" <rdrjohn2000@y...> wrote:

        >
        > I am not involved in the disputes with the French clergy, I just
        read
        > the list about these events in Europe. I do not live in Europe
        > (though I did live there in the early 80's for four years) and
        > thus am not a member of any European diocese (of course neither is
        > Fr. Alexander).



        > I make no judgment on the situation of the clergy in France, but,
        > correct me if I am wrong, no transportation was given or offered
        to
        > the clergy who were summoned to the meeting with Vl. Lavr. Why
        does
        > Fr. Alexander avoid mentioning this important detail?

        If you did live in Europe, you should realize it's not so important
        a detail. To get from Paris to Munich is like getting from Boston to
        NY, only easier, because Europe is WAY ahead of the U.S.
        (particularly, I'll submit, the southern U.S.) when it comes to
        transportation. You can fly round trip between to the two cities for
        under $100. Or take a train if you prefer to stay on the ground.
        Transportation is really not an issue Europe, so trying to make it
        one seems to be, with all due respect, really grasping at straws.

        In Christ's love,
        Elizabeth
        >
      • goossir
        Dear Elizabeth, Please let me correct you. I also live in Europe, Brussels and am very astonished about the information you give on travelling in Europe. How
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 7, 2002
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          Dear Elizabeth,

          Please let me correct you.
          I also live in Europe, Brussels and am very astonished about the
          information you give on travelling in Europe.
          How is it possible that you do not know that flight fares between
          European big cities are very expensive. It is cheaper sometimes to
          go to New York by plane than to go to Vienna, Stockholm, etc. You
          certainly do not find return tickets between Paris and Munich at
          USD100, even with promotion prices. They cost at least 5 times more.
          Train travel between Paris and Munich is also expensive and very
          long. You have to change at least twice. I know this perfectly
          well, as I had to organise, last year, my daughter's travel from
          France to Munich by train. The one way ticket cost approximately USD
          200.
          I am sorry for the list that we must go into travelling details in
          Europe, but it is important to show that effectively, as John
          mentioned, not only the French Clergy's summoning to Paris was at
          very short notice but also quite costly.

          With sisterly love
          Irina Pahlen

          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
          > Dear John,
          >
          > To respond to only one point you made, since I am a amember of a
          > European ROCOR diocese (in good standing) and do live in Europe... :
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Reader John" <rdrjohn2000@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > I am not involved in the disputes with the French clergy, I just
          > read
          > > the list about these events in Europe. I do not live in Europe
          > > (though I did live there in the early 80's for four years) and
          > > thus am not a member of any European diocese (of course neither
          is
          > > Fr. Alexander).
          >
          >
          >
          > > I make no judgment on the situation of the clergy in France, but,
          > > correct me if I am wrong, no transportation was given or offered
          > to
          > > the clergy who were summoned to the meeting with Vl. Lavr. Why
          > does
          > > Fr. Alexander avoid mentioning this important detail?
          >
          > If you did live in Europe, you should realize it's not so important
          > a detail. To get from Paris to Munich is like getting from Boston
          to
          > NY, only easier, because Europe is WAY ahead of the U.S.
          > (particularly, I'll submit, the southern U.S.) when it comes to
          > transportation. You can fly round trip between to the two cities
          for
          > under $100. Or take a train if you prefer to stay on the ground.
          > Transportation is really not an issue Europe, so trying to make it
          > one seems to be, with all due respect, really grasping at straws.
          >
          > In Christ's love,
          > Elizabeth
          > >
        • hoodpeters
          ... Did they need champagne and caviar in order to go to Munich? http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/euraide/t0261par.htm Besides, if your Bishops tell
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 7, 2002
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            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "goossir" <irene.goossens@c...> wrote:
            > I am sorry for the list that we must go into travelling details in
            > Europe, but it is important to show that effectively, as John
            > mentioned, not only the French Clergy's summoning to Paris was at
            > very short notice but also quite costly.


            Did they need champagne and caviar in order to go to Munich?
            http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/euraide/t0261par.htm
            Besides, if your Bishops tell you to go 500 miles for a meeting or be
            defrocked, you go. Your line of reasoning to justify Varnavism "by
            any means necessary" is ridiculous.
            In Christ,
            Dcn. John
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