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[orthodox-synod] Re: Father Seraphim Rose

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  • Udut, Kenneth
    It was interesting seeing an icon of him, but I dunno - it feels a little premature - kinda odd to see such a familiar face in an icon. A very well done icon,
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 3, 1999
      It was interesting seeing an icon of him, but I dunno - it
      feels a little premature - kinda odd to see such a familiar face
      in an icon. A very well done icon, I think.

      What is the appropriate response to something one things is a saint
      but is not recognized yet by the Church? Is it appropriate to have
      an icon of one like Fr Seraphim Rose? I will remain uncomfortable with
      the idea until I find out that 'it's okay, but with these limitations '-
      then I'll promptly print it out :)



      Kenneth Udut
      Kenneth.Udut@...
    • Andreas ODell
      My question on this was pretty much the same. I have many photos around the house and in my office of several of the priests and monks who I have come to know
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 3, 1999
        My question on this was pretty much the same. I have many photos around
        the house and in my office of several of the priests and monks who I have
        come to know and to love: my spiritual father, my confessor, just to
        name a few. I also have a photo of the Archbishop mounted to an ikon
        type wood, but it is still a photo.

        Although I have these photos around the house and office, I pay them
        respect (veneration?) by always being reminded of their presence and it
        continues the "bond" with them and myself.

        Would this be the same as veneration if I were to have a photo or,
        possibly, and ikon of Fr. Seraphim Rose? Would it be the same as
        veneration to an ikon of the Theotokos, whom I dearly love?

        Just asking... I didn't know.

        O anaxios,
        Andreas

        On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:02:22 -0400 "Udut, Kenneth"
        <kenneth.udut@...> writes:
        > It was interesting seeing an icon of him, but I dunno - it
        > feels a little premature - kinda odd to see such a familiar face
        > in an icon. A very well done icon, I think.
        >
        > What is the appropriate response to something one things is a saint
        > but is not recognized yet by the Church? Is it appropriate to have
        > an icon of one like Fr Seraphim Rose? I will remain uncomfortable
        > with
        > the idea until I find out that 'it's okay, but with these
        > limitations '-
        > then I'll promptly print it out :)
        >
        >
        >
        > Kenneth Udut
        > Kenneth.Udut@...
        >
        >
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      • Olga Mitrenina
        ... Dear Kenneth Udut: Our metropolitan Vitaly told me that canonization is a Catholic notion. We, being Orthodox, just venerate those whom we consider as
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 3, 1999
          >What is the appropriate response to something one things is a saint
          >but is not recognized yet by the Church?

          Dear Kenneth Udut:

          Our metropolitan Vitaly told me that "canonization" is a Catholic notion.
          We, being Orthodox, just venerate those whom we consider as Saints. For
          example, St. Nicolas Miracleworker was never canonized. And St. Gregory
          Palama was canonized BECAUSE people were BUILDING CHURCHES in his honour.

          I believe that Father Seraphim prays for us.

          With love in Christ,
          Olga
        • Udut, Kenneth
          Thank you for the clarification, Olga. I understand that the appearance of Saints in the calendar and/or Synodal proclaimations comes *after* popular
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 3, 1999
            Thank you for the clarification, Olga.

            I understand that the appearance of Saints in the calendar
            and/or Synodal proclaimations comes *after* popular
            veneration, out of the geniune love for the Saint.

            I just wasn't certain about the 'logistics' of it -
            for example, is it okay to sing praises? To paint
            an icon? To ask for his/her prayers?

            I've never understood this part, but I have always
            liked Fr Seraphim Rose's writings, so I would be
            happy to hear that venerating an icon of him is okay.

            Kenneth Udut
            Kenneth.Udut@...
            "Voistinu CHelovek
            `Etot byl Syn Bozhij!'"

            |-----Original Message-----
            |From: Olga Mitrenina [mailto:alektor@...]
            |Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 3:13 PM
            |To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
            |Subject: [orthodox-synod] Father Seraphim Rose
            |
            |
            |>What is the appropriate response to something one things is a saint
            |>but is not recognized yet by the Church?
            |
            |Dear Kenneth Udut:
            |
            |Our metropolitan Vitaly told me that "canonization" is a
            |Catholic notion.
            |We, being Orthodox, just venerate those whom we consider as Saints. For
            |example, St. Nicolas Miracleworker was never canonized. And St. Gregory
            |Palama was canonized BECAUSE people were BUILDING CHURCHES in
            |his honour.
            |
            |I believe that Father Seraphim prays for us.
            |
            |With love in Christ,
            |Olga
            |
            |
            |
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          • Rev. John R. Shaw
            I do not think this is quite what Metropolitan Vitaly meant to say--in view of the fact that Fr. Herman was disciplined for printing a picture of St. John of
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 3, 1999
              I do not think this is quite what Metropolitan Vitaly meant to say--in
              view of the fact that Fr. Herman was disciplined for printing a picture
              of St. John of San Francisco with a halo *before* he was officially
              canonized--the Russian word is "glorified"--by the Church.
              We also have a custom of celebrating a "last Pannikhida"
              immediately before a Saint is canonized, since ther are no more
              Pannikhidas for someone after they have been recognized as a Saint.
              However, it is true that Rome has taken to "political"
              canonizations--as gestures to various groups, nationalities, races &c. We
              have "common services" for Saints of various types--Apostles, Martyrs,
              Prophets, Monastic Saints, and so on; before Vat. II, Rome had basically
              the same categories. If you look at their books now, you can see a common
              service for "Those That Have Worked for the Underprivileged".
              In the Orthodox Church, Sainthood is not a rank like the hall of
              fame or the college of cardinals! People are not made Saints--they
              already *are* Saints, and what the Church does is recognize something
              that already is shown to be a fact.
              Yours with love in Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
              >
              > Our metropolitan Vitaly told me that "canonization" is a Catholic notion.
              > We, being Orthodox, just venerate those whom we consider as Saints. For
              > example, St. Nicolas Miracleworker was never canonized. And St. Gregory
              > Palama was canonized BECAUSE people were BUILDING CHURCHES in his honour.
              >
              > I believe that Father Seraphim prays for us.
              >
              > With love in Christ,
              > Olga
              >
              >
              >
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            • LJames6034@aol.com
              There is a French expresson Taxation populaire, by which is meant: The people take what they want. If the people believe a person is a saint, he/she may
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 10, 1999
                There is a French expresson "Taxation populaire," by which is meant: The
                people take what they want. If the people believe a person is a saint,
                he/she may be. As the Orthodox Patriarchs said to the pope, in 1848: "None
                of us is infallible. The whole people of God are the gurantors of the faith."


                Father Andrew
              • LJames6034@aol.com
                Curious. I have been in South Carolina, since last Monday, and was in Baltimore Saturday (4th), Sunday (5th), and Monday morning. I did not write this
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 10, 1999
                  Curious. I have been in South Carolina, since last Monday, and was in
                  Baltimore Saturday (4th), Sunday (5th), and Monday morning.

                  I did not write this yesterday (9/09/99), though I did write it.

                  Even more curious: As I recall, it was intended to be a private post to
                  one of you, not to everyone on the List. However, as I have said in the
                  past: "There is no private me as over against a public me." (Though, to be
                  sure, I might not refer to the patriarch of Moscow as a "commie bastard,"
                  publicly, as I have privately.)

                  Nevertheless, for anything I have said, I would be willing to give you two
                  weeks to draw a crowd---and then post what I said!


                  Father Andrew
                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                  Years ago, an elderly lady parishioner of ours in Chicago, the late Mrs. Lydia Petrovna Braginskaya, who was the daughter of a priest martyred by the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 11, 1999
                    Years ago, an elderly lady parishioner of ours in Chicago, the late Mrs.
                    Lydia Petrovna Braginskaya, who was the daughter of a priest martyred by
                    the Bolsheviks, told me the following:
                    "No matter how much you may dislike or disagree with a priest [or
                    bishop], when you talk [and also write or think] about him, remember
                    this: you do now know what he is doing at the given moment. Perhaps he is
                    offering the Holy Sacrifice, administering Holy Communion or Unction, or
                    praying for someone--and here you are calling him bad names".
                    The late Archbishop Seraphim of blessed memory, of Chicago and
                    Detroit, once in a conversation with me [privately], made a remark not
                    unlike the one below about another cleric; but then caught himself,
                    crossed himself, and added "krome svjaschenstva ego, prosti
                    Hospodi"--"except for his priesthood, and may the Lord forgive me".
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                    > past:
                    "There is no private me as over against a public me." (Though, to be
                    > sure, I might not refer to the patriarch of Moscow as a "commie bastard,"
                    > publicly, as I have privately.)
                    >
                    > Nevertheless, for anything I have said, I would be willing to give you two
                    > weeks to draw a crowd---and then post what I said!
                    >
                    >
                    > Father Andrew
                    >
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                  • byakimov@csc.com.au
                    http://www.orthodoxnews.com/doodad.fcgi?tcode=10&story=Pravda.ru9282002020814.shtml Published by Pravda, September 27, 2002 It Is Later Than You Think!
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 30, 2002
                      http://www.orthodoxnews.com/doodad.fcgi?tcode=10&story=Pravda.ru9282002020814.shtml
                      Published by Pravda, September 27, 2002


                      "It Is Later Than You Think!" American Apostle to the Russian People


                      Fr. Seraphim Rose giving an open air talk

                      By Deacon-monk Makarios

                      IVANOVO, Russia, September 27, 2002 (Pravda) -- Nothing to do with sleek
                      businessmen, fast food chains or investment schemes. And many Russian
                      Christians will recognize him right away: few Christian stores or church
                      book counters would not carry translations from Fr. Seraphim Rose.

                      It should be noted, however, that his apostleship -- to Russia or to any
                      other nation into whose languages his works are translated -- did not
                      emerge until he finished his earthly sojourn: he died in September, 1982 at
                      the age of 48, and the twentieth anniversary of his untimely death is
                      solemnly observed these days all over the globe. And here on earth he lived
                      in a tiny Orthodox monastic community in the mountains of North California,
                      constantly immersed into the church service cycle, into research, writing,
                      editing and publishing work, translating treasures of Christian heritage
                      into English, responding to letters from readers and inquirers, attending
                      to the daily needs like gardening, firewood, truck engine and printing
                      equipment, and praying in silence.

                      Who was he, that humble, reticent priest-monk? Eugene Rose before
                      monasticism, younger son of a janitor, born in San Diego, CA, in his school
                      and college years he had little involvement with, or interest for
                      Christianity. But he had a bright, inquisitive mind and an honest heart,
                      yearning for the truth -- and that has made all the difference.

                      He studied Buddhism under Alan Watts in San Francisco and Chinese
                      philosophy in the University of California, Berkeley, excelling in any
                      field he touched and realizing at the same time that the full truth had to
                      be found elsewhere? As he later recalled, "?a new idea began to enter my
                      awareness: that Truth was not just an abstract idea, sought and known by
                      the mind, but rather something personal -- even a Person -- sought and
                      loved by the heart. And that is how I met Christ".

                      A number of outer circumstances furthered his conversion. Eugene had
                      connections to the Russian immigrant community in San Francisco with very
                      strong Orthodox Christian roots. In 1962 it was headed by Archbishop John
                      Maximovich, known by some of his followers in China and Western Europe as a
                      saint even during his lifetime (and indeed, he was canonized in 1994 in San
                      Francisco). He took spiritual charge over the young American inquirer, and
                      Fr. Seraphim throughout his life kept the deepest devotion to Archbishop
                      John.

                      But there is more to it. A throng of faithful flocked around the saintly
                      Archbishop -- yet no one else was to become like Fr. Seraphim. Much later a
                      person who had known him quite well summarized it as follows:

                      "He was very intelligent -- such a genius that few people saw him for what
                      he was. But at the same time he was very simple, not complicated at all,
                      rather like his father and mother. He could see things exactly the way they
                      were -- a down-to-earth, warm, honest man".

                      Fr. Seraphim's heritage, both tangible and intangible, is truly immense,
                      and even today, twenty years after his death, it keeps unfolding, opening
                      new riches. A new volume of his correspondence, Letters from Fr. Seraphim,
                      has just been published. Before that, a vast collection Genesis, Creation
                      and Early Man has appeared, devoted mostly to the evolution vs. creation
                      controversy. His most widely known work, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the
                      Future, reprinted many times in the US and abroad, should be credited for
                      exposing numerous modern-day spiritual deceptions and rescuing countless
                      souls from the New Age and Occult sects. The Soul After Death spells out
                      the traditional Christian view and explains otherwise mysterious
                      "near-death" and "after-death experiences". The Orthodox Word bi-monthly,
                      published by Fr. Seraphim since 1965, at times single-handedly, is still
                      serving the English-speaking Christians.

                      And that's just a small portion of what he has done. His disciples, both
                      clergy and laity, are found in Orthodox communities all over the US and, in
                      fact, all over the world; his articles, sermons and lectures provide an
                      ever-fresh source of knowledge and inspiration. And his gravesite in
                      Platina, CA has become a popular place of pilgrimage for those who loved
                      him here on earth as well as those who never met him personally.

                      From the preface to the Heavenly Realm, a collection of essays by Eugene
                      Rose, future Fr. Seraphim:

                      "The wonder of a soul of a modern young man who managed somehow to
                      penetrate into the realm of the rich Christian tradition, then to saturate
                      himself by its divine splendor, and finally to emerge as a living link with
                      the Church Fathers -- is indeed awesome! Who would suspect that our prosaic
                      America could produce such a visionary?"

                      Remembering Fr. Seraphim (Orthodox America, Aug.-Sep. 1982)

                      ? In conversation he was the proverbial "man of few words". He had no
                      interest in idle chatter, seldom expressed a personal preference for
                      anything, and disliked fakery of all kinds, often speaking of the
                      "Disneyland mentality" of America which was making it impossible for people
                      to seek and find the truth. (Such aversion to Disney, in those years
                      ostensibly innocent, seemed strange to many -- but soon the cat will be out
                      of the bag, and in 1996 American Christians will begin boycotting Disney ?
                      ed.)

                      He worried about the fact that most of us were "unconscious": we were so
                      abysmally ignorant of the great truths of our Faith? "Be awake, aware,
                      informed!..." -- he would plead, -- "Don't keep Orthodoxy to yourself as
                      though it were some private treasure. Share it!"

                      ? Fr. Seraphim was an inspiration for thousands of people. He gave some of
                      the most inspiring sermons ever uttered in the English language. His
                      constant counsel was: "Never excuse yourself. If you must, or think you
                      must, give way to a weakness, then be certain to recognize it as a weakness
                      and a sin. But see your own faults and condemn not your brother!"

                      During the latter portion of his life, Fr. Seraphim continually emphasized
                      the need for spiritual attentiveness in preparation for struggles to come.
                      He seemed to have an awareness, a foreknowledge of apocalyptic times ahead.
                      His message was conveyed in a well-known phrase: "It is later than you
                      think!"

                      ? The death of Fr. Seraphim produced a spiritual phenomenon untold of in
                      our times. Lying in state in a crude wooden coffin in the humble monastery
                      church, not only did the body remain soft and life-like in the summer heat,
                      but so comforting was his face that one could not bear to cover it, in the
                      traditional monastic way. Even children could hardly move away from the
                      coffin, since the body brought such internal peace and suggested such love.
                      Everyone was aware that, in our times, among us, a holy man had left in his
                      body a phenomenon that challenges science and our hearts.

                      From God's Revelation to the Human Heart by Fr. Seraphim
                      (St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1987)

                      ?Is there a special organ for receiving revelation from God? Yes, in a
                      certain sense there is such an organ, though usually we close it and do not
                      let it open up: God's revelation is given to something called a loving
                      heart. We know from the Scriptures that God is love; Christianity is the
                      religion of love (you may look at the failures, see people who call
                      themselves Christians and are not, and say there is no love there; but
                      Christianity is indeed the religion of love when it is successful and
                      practiced in the right way)? If you ask anyone who knew Archbishop John
                      what it was that drew people to him -- and still draws people who never
                      knew him -- the answer is always the same: he was overflowing with love; he
                      sacrificed himself for his fellow men out of absolutely unselfish love for
                      God and for them. This is why things were revealed to him which could not
                      get through to other people and which he never could have known by natural
                      means. He himself taught that, for all "mysticism" of our Orthodox Church
                      that is found in the Lives of the Saints and the writings of the Holy
                      Fathers, the Orthodox faithful always has both feet firmly on the ground,
                      facing whatever situation is right in front of him. It is in accepting
                      given situations, which requires a loving heart, that man encounters God.
                      This loving heart is why anyone comes to a knowledge of the truth?

                      The opposite of the loving heart that receives revelation from God is cold
                      calculation, getting what you can out of people; in religious life, this
                      produces fakery and charlatanism of all descriptions. If you look at the
                      religious world today, you see that a great deal of this is going on: so
                      much fakery, posing, calculation, so much taking advantage of the winds of
                      fashion?

                      From the Letters from Father Seraphim (Nikodemos, Richfield Springs, NY,
                      2001)

                      ? Good heavens! What is happening to people? How easily one gets dragged
                      off the path of serving God into all kinds of factions and jealousies and
                      attempts at revenge.

                      ? I think about... that older generation that is now almost gone, and I
                      want to weep for the young know-it-alls who have missed the point. But the
                      understanding comes only through real suffering, and how many can do that?

                      ? Christians, surrounded by and already swimming in a sea of
                      humanist-worldly philosophy and practice, must do everything possible to
                      create their own islands, in that sea, of other-worldly, God-oriented
                      thought and practice.

                      ? Try to remember that all real Christian work is local -- right here and
                      now, between myself and God and my neighbor.

                      ? Do you have a notebook for taking down quotes from Holy Fathers in your
                      reading? Do you always have a book of Holy Fathers that you are reading and
                      can turn to in a moment of gloom? Start now -- this is essential!

                      ? Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at
                      all.
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