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Re: Why the MP Apologetics?

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  • boulia_1
    Dear Father Mark and all. You, Father, are right. It was pointless and stupid of me to mention my opinion at all; I succumbed weakly in my overall angst about
    Message 1 of 73 , Oct 3, 2002
      Dear Father Mark and all.

      You, Father, are right. It was pointless and stupid of me to mention
      my opinion at all; I succumbed weakly in my overall angst about this
      situation. I did not mean to drop any 'bombs' or to behave in an ad
      hominem manner, though, it seems, I did. I regret it.

      The incident I referred to IS ancient history and is not mine to
      resurrect; I will never speak of it further; all but a couple of
      parties directly involved are now deceased. My source was a credible
      one in my opinion [but who am I to judge], but she is long dead and
      unable to speak for herself. The incident is not provable now, it is
      hearsay, I am so sorry to have released it into this forum like a
      poison.

      Moreover, you are right, it is not really relevant to the current
      situation, except that it fits the picture of a group of self-serving
      clergymen. Hence it came to my small mind.

      Nonetheless, it was wrong, wrong, wrong, for me to share this
      thought; I am sorry for it and I am going to be quiet now. God will
      judge me, and all the restof us. May He be merciful.

      In Christ's love,
      Elizabeth









      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "rev mark gilstrap" <fr.mark@s...> wrote:
      > Fr Alexander posted some verifiable points. Matushka
      > Maureen added her hair shirt story and her personal
      > opinion. Next we see posted an accusation and judgement
      > of unnamed individuals and their motivations as if proof of
      > something. This goes too far. To be fair (and for that
      > matter, to be considered credible) on a discussion list one
      > must not resort to ad hominem argumentation.
      >
      > It does not act to refute the supposed facts presented by
      > those in schism to stoop to the level of attacking them
      > personally. As was pointed out when a much milder affront
      > was only inferred by a reader upon seeing a clergyman's name
      > in a context he thought accusatory:
      >
      > >The Church canons
      > > provide for what is to be done when someone makes accusations
      against a
      > > priest - rules that exist for the
      > > good of both accuser and accused, so that each might be able to
      give an
      > > account of himself at the Dread Judgment
      > > and not earn condemnation.
      >
      > Seeing as how the accusation of murder has just been made,
      > I say that it is certainly binding on the accuser to check her facts
      > and take this immediately to the hierarchical authorities - not to
      > a public list. As this took place "long ago" before there was a
      > schism, what relevance does this have to the current situation?
      > Either this was proven at the time, (in which case why was no
      > name provided in order to inform thise who are now duped?),
      > or it was not proven, or perhaps not even brought to the hierarchy
      > at the time - which is itself an issue the bishops can address.
      >
      > I think this was just an unfortunate bomb dropped for its ad
      > hominem impact alone. The guidelines of this list don't allow
      > such behavior.
      >
      > pr Mark
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@y...>
      > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:40 AM
      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why the MP Apologetics?
      >
      >
      > > Dear Fr. Alexander, Maureen, et al.
      > >
      > > Amen! Fr. Alexander also didn't mention the (married) priest who
      had
      > > impregnated a parishioners(not his wife), and forced her to have
      an
      > > abortion so he wouldn't be scandalized! But maybe he doesn't know
      > > about that shameful incident... it was long ago.
      > >
      > > The ROCIEleaders will answer for their sins in heaven, including
      their
      > > most grievous sin of misleading the well-meaning innocent (or
      > > foolish?) people who love Vl. Vitaly and haven't witnessed how
      'ga-ga'
      > > he has become in his old age. It's a crying shame. Worse, the
      people
      > > Fr. Alexander and others have been trying to persuade will NEVER
      > > accept any of his arguments, no matter how persuasive; in their
      > > stubborn pride, they would rather call the Archpriest and the rest
      of
      > > us liars. Sometimes I think Jesus Christ himself would be unable
      to
      > > change their minds.
      > >
      > > Lord have mercy!
      > >
      > > Thanks for tirelessy trying, though, Father.
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > > elizabeth
      > >
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "maureengirard" <maureengdirard@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
      <lebedeff@w...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > Fr. Alexander,
      > > > You didn't mention anything about the married monk with kids who
      > > > sells hair shirts.
      > > >
      > > > In truth, the ROCiE crew is quite a collection. It's like
      watching
      > > > an out of control soap opera.
      > > > Maureen
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > >Those who did write more recent things "in the same vein"
      were
      > > > > >defrocked, excommunicated and called schismatic. But they did
      > > > > >write "in the same vein" (the traditional one). Their honour
      is
      > > > thus
      > > > > >safe and Christ will not be ashamed of them before his
      heavenly
      > > > > >father.
      > > > >
      > > > > The recent posts by Vladimir Kozyreff and Irina Pahlen
      continue to
      > > > portray
      > > > > the idea that the motivations of the renegade clergy in France
      and
      > > > Belgium
      > > > > are completely pure--that they are simply defenders of the
      truth
      > > > and the
      > > > > historical positions of the ROCOR who are being unjustly
      > > persecuted
      > > > for
      > > > > their standing in the faith.
      > > > >
      > > > > This is a simplistic and utterly naive view.
      > > > >
      > > > > In reality, the whole ROCiE split was manufactured by a motley
      > > > collection
      > > > > of "avantiuristy" pursuing their own personal agendas--and not
      by
      > > > > principled defenders of the truth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Former Bishop Varnava single-handedly virtually destroyed the
      > > > credibility
      > > > > of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in Russia, by
      > > > openly
      > > > > endorsing the neo-fascist Pamyat' organization and
      participating
      > > in
      > > > some of
      > > > > its most outrageous "actions," such as the shameful
      "avtoprobeg"
      > > > around
      > > > > Moscow, where brown-shirted and jack-booted goons with
      Nazi-like
      > > > armbands
      > > > > rode around Moscow in open trucks, waving fascist banners.
      > > > >
      > > > > Former Bishop Varnava also blessed one of his priests to
      > > > participate in the
      > > > > Pamyat' "raid" at the editorial offices of "Moskovskij
      > > > Komsomolets," where
      > > > > the jack-booted goons stormed the offices, ripped out the
      phones
      > > > and
      > > > > terrorized the staff.
      > > > >
      > > > > And, former Bishop Varnava completely embarrassed the Church
      > > Abroad
      > > > by
      > > > > signing, on official ROCOR stationery, a letter to the head of
      the
      > > > > uncanonical "Autonomous Ukranian Church" in which he offered
      to
      > > > create an
      > > > > alliance between the Church Abroad and this schismatic body.
      > > > >
      > > > > Add to this that Bishop Varnava confused the entire situation
      of
      > > > the
      > > > > parishes in Russia, by single-handedly rescinding suspensions
      and
      > > > > depositions imposed by other bishops of the Church Abroad
      there,
      > > > and
      > > > > allying himself with disreputable and disgraced clerics.
      > > > >
      > > > > This is your "Pillar of Truth," Vladimir?
      > > > >
      > > > > And look at his associates in the Mansonville schism!
      > > > >
      > > > > A renegade monk from Jordanville, who ran away spouting lies
      and
      > > > vitriol
      > > > > against the monastery he had been tonsured in--now he is a
      > > "bishop."
      > > > >
      > > > > A former Moscow Patriarchate clergyman who so messed up
      matters in
      > > > the Holy
      > > > > Land while he was Head of the Ecclesisatical Mission there
      that we
      > > > are
      > > > > still reeling from his grievous mistakes in judgement.
      > > > >
      > > > > A renegade priest who had run away from the Church Abroad into
      the
      > > > HOCNA
      > > > > schism, writing all kinds of lies and distortions--and who,
      > > several
      > > > years
      > > > > later, claimed to repent, and, although he had been deposed
      from
      > > > holy
      > > > > orders, was with great condescension and love by the bishops
      of
      > > the
      > > > Church
      > > > > Abroad, was restore to the priesthood--only to once again turn
      on
      > > > the
      > > > > bishops who had forgiven him--and once again run away into
      schism.
      > > > >
      > > > > Another key player is a priest who, together with his son, in
      the
      > > > presence
      > > > > of nine witnesses, attacked an elderly great-grandmother right
      in
      > > > front of
      > > > > our Cathedral and beat her. Nine witnesses watched this
      "priest"
      > > > knock the
      > > > > elderly woman to the ground and beat her with his fists. I was
      > > > called to
      > > > > the scene and arrived to see the police there talking to a
      > > severely
      > > > > battered lady, who had to be taken to the hospital. I have
      > > > photographs
      > > > > taken that day that show the severe bruises and lacerations on
      her
      > > > > arms--the outside of her forearms--clearly what are
      > > > called "defensive
      > > > > wounds." This renegade priest was also instrumental in robbing
      our
      > > > church
      > > > > of all of its documents--articles of incorporation, deeds,
      parish
      > > > archives
      > > > > and photographs, building plans for the cupola project, bank
      books
      > > > and
      > > > > financial statements--and icons, liturgical books, and music,
      > > among
      > > > > truckloads of other items belonging to the parish that he
      simply
      > > > came and
      > > > > took. This man's reputation was so unsavory, that every one of
      his
      > > > brothers
      > > > > and sisters--all five of them--wrote a petition to
      Metropolitan
      > > > Vitaly
      > > > > begging him not to allow this man to be ordained to the
      > > priesthood--
      > > > a
      > > > > petition that was accompanied by another petition by the man's
      > > > spiritual
      > > > > father of many years, also informing the Metropolitan of
      serious
      > > > canonical
      > > > > impediments to the ordination of this man. Unfortunately,
      > > > Metropolitan
      > > > > Vitaly ordained him anyway.
      > > > >
      > > > > Another player is a priest who left the Synod with the
      > > > Panteleimonites,
      > > > > manipulated his parish meeting to take the parish with
      him--who,
      > > > after
      > > > > years of writing derogatory statements about Metropolitan
      Vitaly
      > > > and the
      > > > > Synod of the ROCOR--suddenly leaves HOCNA, remanipulates his
      > > Parish
      > > > > Council, and takes the parish into ROCiE, becoming one of its
      > > > ideologues.
      > > > >
      > > > > Another key player, Father German Ivanov-13, has openly
      disagreed
      > > > with the
      > > > > Mansonville ROCiE positions regarding the question of grace
      among
      > > > New
      > > > > Calendarists and the relationship with Metropolitan Cyprian,
      so it
      > > > is clear
      > > > > that there is no "unity of standing in the truth" between the
      > > > European and
      > > > > North-American branches of the tiny ROCiE.
      > > > >
      > > > > Add to this the confusion between the Mansonville ROCie and
      the
      > > > ROCiE
      > > > > bishops in Russia--Lazarus and Benjamin--and you have quite
      > > > a "kettle of fish."
      > > > >
      > > > > No wonder they cannot even agree on a date for a Sobor, which
      they
      > > > probably
      > > > > will not be able to have, since the Russian bishops will
      insist on
      > > > having
      > > > > their newly-consecrated bishops participating, while the other
      > > > parts of the
      > > > > ROCiE will be totally opposed to this.
      > > > >
      > > > > Meanwhile, "Bishop" Vladimir has been evicted from Canada and
      is
      > > > banned
      > > > > from reentering it, so he could not even participate in such a
      > > > Sobor.
      > > > >
      > > > > Another point.
      > > > >
      > > > > The ROCiEs in Europe have made hay about how cruel Bishop
      Ambrose
      > > > is in
      > > > > attempting to evict the renegade Fr. Nicholas Semenoff from
      his
      > > > home
      > > > > "together with his children."
      > > > >
      > > > > They fail to mention that Fr. Nicholas Semenoff's children are
      all
      > > > grown.
      > > > >
      > > > > Meanwhile, the ROCiEs completely heartlessly evicted the loyal
      > > > ROCOR priest
      > > > > in Parish from his home--a priest who **does** have small
      > > children.
      > > > >
      > > > > This is the kind of hypocricy that is being perpetrated by
      these
      > > > > "principled defenders of the truth."
      > > > >
      > > > > The whole thing is simply a power grab.
      > > > >
      > > > > The notorious loose cannon, former Bishop Varnava, had seen
      that
      > > > his
      > > > > "number was up"--that he had no chance of becoming the new
      Ruling
      > > > Bishop of
      > > > > Western Europe, and that he was probably going to be
      sanctioned
      > > by
      > > > the
      > > > > other bishops for his outrageous behavior.
      > > > >
      > > > > So he, together with a couple of equally nefarious
      accomplices,
      > > > staged this
      > > > > operation, whisking the elderly Metropolitan Vitaly away from
      the
      > > > Synod in
      > > > > New York, and, taking advantage of his frailty and senility,
      > > > creating the
      > > > > uncanonical structure known as ROCiE.
      > > > >
      > > > > This is not a matter of ecclesiology or ideology or "standing
      for
      > > > the truth."
      > > > >
      > > > > All of that is a smoke-screen, meant to mislead the naive
      > > faithful.
      > > > >
      > > > > These conniving individuals tried to manipulate Metropolitan
      > > Vitaly
      > > > while
      > > > > he was still First Hierarch, getting him to sign
      > > > several "Statements"
      > > > > critical of the Sobor Resolutions of 2000 that he had himself
      > > > signed and
      > > > > getting him to remove sanctions that had been placed against
      them
      > > > by the Synod.
      > > > >
      > > > > They knew that they could not continue doing this, so they
      jumped
      > > > ship and
      > > > > set up their own little clacque, where they could do what they
      > > > wished, with
      > > > > no one responsible to answer to.
      > > > >
      > > > > That's all it is.
      > > > >
      > > > > "Defenders of the true faith," my foot!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > With love in Christ,
      > > > >
      > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Joshua Fraese
      ... theological ... incorrect. ... in the ... without ... (valid in ... the ... provide a ... by ... professes ... Dear Hristofor, Metropolitan Anthony wrote
      Message 73 of 73 , Oct 11, 2002
        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
        > I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have no
        theological
        > background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct or
        incorrect.
        > However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.
        >
        > First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
        in the
        > Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and those
        without
        > Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"
        (valid in
        > your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent if
        the
        > person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you please
        provide a
        > quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptism
        by
        > heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the person
        professes
        > the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?
        >

        Dear Hristofor,

        Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
        reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
        below:

        "Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
        second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
        sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
        like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
        putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
        conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
        Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
        John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
        remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
        side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
        those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
        believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
        alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
        edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
        the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
        second or third rite), but through the operation of another
        sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
        chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
        Nestorians and Donatists.)"

        You can read this essay in its entirety at:
        http://www.stvladimirs.ca/articles/economia-reception-converts.html

        I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
        whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
        theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
        usage of economia.

        - Joshua Fraese
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