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Re: Why the MP Apologetics?

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  • goossir
    Dear Father Alexander, Bless! To questions of principle you answer with personal accusation at people that mostly I do not know. This is the kind of polemic I
    Message 1 of 73 , Oct 3, 2002
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      Dear Father Alexander, Bless!

      To questions of principle you answer with personal accusation at
      people that mostly I do not know. This is the kind of polemic I do
      want to get into .

      But it is my duty to rectify the wrong information you give about
      people I know out of respect for the readers of this list

      Regarding Vl Varnava and his acquaintance with Pamiat. It is a very
      old story for which he repented publicly. You do not say that he
      was sent in Russia secretely, still under communist rule, to
      consecrate bishops. In those days, it was quite dangerous for our
      bishops to be in Russia. He was young and naive and no protection
      whatsoever. People from Pamiat proposed to protect him and used
      this protection to manipulate him. This happened to many and still
      happens. Just see how lenient you are with the MP.

      Father Nicolas Semenoff has 4 children, one grown up, three other
      studying, the youngest is 15/16 years old. So he is still
      responsible for three (studies are quite costly). Father Nicolas is
      without any salary now (due to Vl Ambrose's actions). His wife is
      jobless as for so many years she dedicated herself to the Church and
      her children. You can easily imagine how it is difficult now at
      their age and after so long to find a job.

      The other priest you mention, I suppose Father Evgueny Sapronov.
      Yes, he has small children but they are living with their mother in
      France where they just have built a house in Versaille and have no
      intention whatsoever to come and live in Brussels as she has a very
      good teaching job there. He comes only for the services and his
      official address in Brussels is just out of convinience. They are
      absolutely not homeless.

      Father Sapronov was never "evicted" as he never lived in the house
      where Father Nicolas is living for already 14 years! It is Father
      Nicolas who is evicted, peniless and jobless!

      As for Father Ivanov-13, it is true that he disagreed with the ROCIE
      positions regarding the question of grace among New Calendarists and
      the relationship with Metropolitan Cyprian. But he was not
      suspended for this and when Vl Gabriel came to Lyon with his offers
      he preferred to stay faithfull to the Church than listen to the song
      of the mermaid. It just shows that objections are always accepted,
      discussed and at the end resolved in sobornost.

      Yours in Christ
      Irina Pahlen

      > >Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > >Those who did write more recent things "in the same vein" were
      > >defrocked, excommunicated and called schismatic. But they did
      > >write "in the same vein" (the traditional one). Their honour is
      thus
      > >safe and Christ will not be ashamed of them before his heavenly
      > >father.
      >
      > The recent posts by Vladimir Kozyreff and Irina Pahlen continue to
      portray
      > the idea that the motivations of the renegade clergy in France and
      Belgium
      > are completely pure--that they are simply defenders of the truth
      and the
      > historical positions of the ROCOR who are being unjustly
      persecuted for
      > their standing in the faith.
      >
      > This is a simplistic and utterly naive view.
      >
      > In reality, the whole ROCiE split was manufactured by a motley
      collection
      > of "avantiuristy" pursuing their own personal agendas--and not by
      > principled defenders of the truth.
      >
      > Former Bishop Varnava single-handedly virtually destroyed the
      credibility
      > of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in Russia, by
      openly
      > endorsing the neo-fascist Pamyat' organization and participating
      in some of
      > its most outrageous "actions," such as the shameful "avtoprobeg"
      around
      > Moscow, where brown-shirted and jack-booted goons with Nazi-like
      armbands
      > rode around Moscow in open trucks, waving fascist banners.
      >
      > Former Bishop Varnava also blessed one of his priests to
      participate in the
      > Pamyat' "raid" at the editorial offices of "Moskovskij
      Komsomolets," where
      > the jack-booted goons stormed the offices, ripped out the phones
      and
      > terrorized the staff.
      >
      > And, former Bishop Varnava completely embarrassed the Church
      Abroad by
      > signing, on official ROCOR stationery, a letter to the head of the
      > uncanonical "Autonomous Ukranian Church" in which he offered to
      create an
      > alliance between the Church Abroad and this schismatic body.
      >
      > Add to this that Bishop Varnava confused the entire situation of
      the
      > parishes in Russia, by single-handedly rescinding suspensions and
      > depositions imposed by other bishops of the Church Abroad there,
      and
      > allying himself with disreputable and disgraced clerics.
      >
      > This is your "Pillar of Truth," Vladimir?
      >
      > And look at his associates in the Mansonville schism!
      >
      > A renegade monk from Jordanville, who ran away spouting lies and
      vitriol
      > against the monastery he had been tonsured in--now he is
      a "bishop."
      >
      > A former Moscow Patriarchate clergyman who so messed up matters in
      the Holy
      > Land while he was Head of the Ecclesisatical Mission there that we
      are
      > still reeling from his grievous mistakes in judgement.
      >
      > A renegade priest who had run away from the Church Abroad into the
      HOCNA
      > schism, writing all kinds of lies and distortions--and who,
      several years
      > later, claimed to repent, and, although he had been deposed from
      holy
      > orders, was with great condescension and love by the bishops of
      the Church
      > Abroad, was restore to the priesthood--only to once again turn on
      the
      > bishops who had forgiven him--and once again run away into schism.
      >
      > Another key player is a priest who, together with his son, in the
      presence
      > of nine witnesses, attacked an elderly great-grandmother right in
      front of
      > our Cathedral and beat her. Nine witnesses watched this "priest"
      knock the
      > elderly woman to the ground and beat her with his fists. I was
      called to
      > the scene and arrived to see the police there talking to a
      severely
      > battered lady, who had to be taken to the hospital. I have
      photographs
      > taken that day that show the severe bruises and lacerations on her
      > arms--the outside of her forearms--clearly what are
      called "defensive
      > wounds." This renegade priest was also instrumental in robbing our
      church
      > of all of its documents--articles of incorporation, deeds, parish
      archives
      > and photographs, building plans for the cupola project, bank books
      and
      > financial statements--and icons, liturgical books, and music,
      among
      > truckloads of other items belonging to the parish that he simply
      came and
      > took. This man's reputation was so unsavory, that every one of his
      brothers
      > and sisters--all five of them--wrote a petition to Metropolitan
      Vitaly
      > begging him not to allow this man to be ordained to the priesthood-
      - a
      > petition that was accompanied by another petition by the man's
      spiritual
      > father of many years, also informing the Metropolitan of serious
      canonical
      > impediments to the ordination of this man. Unfortunately,
      Metropolitan
      > Vitaly ordained him anyway.
      >
      > Another player is a priest who left the Synod with the
      Panteleimonites,
      > manipulated his parish meeting to take the parish with him--who,
      after
      > years of writing derogatory statements about Metropolitan Vitaly
      and the
      > Synod of the ROCOR--suddenly leaves HOCNA, remanipulates his
      Parish
      > Council, and takes the parish into ROCiE, becoming one of its
      ideologues.
      >
      > Another key player, Father German Ivanov-13, has openly disagreed
      with the
      > Mansonville ROCiE positions regarding the question of grace among
      New
      > Calendarists and the relationship with Metropolitan Cyprian, so it
      is clear
      > that there is no "unity of standing in the truth" between the
      European and
      > North-American branches of the tiny ROCiE.
      >
      > Add to this the confusion between the Mansonville ROCie and the
      ROCiE
      > bishops in Russia--Lazarus and Benjamin--and you have quite
      a "kettle of fish."
      >
      > No wonder they cannot even agree on a date for a Sobor, which they
      probably
      > will not be able to have, since the Russian bishops will insist on
      having
      > their newly-consecrated bishops participating, while the other
      parts of the
      > ROCiE will be totally opposed to this.
      >
      > Meanwhile, "Bishop" Vladimir has been evicted from Canada and is
      banned
      > from reentering it, so he could not even participate in such a
      Sobor.
      >
      > Another point.
      >
      > The ROCiEs in Europe have made hay about how cruel Bishop Ambrose
      is in
      > attempting to evict the renegade Fr. Nicholas Semenoff from his
      home
      > "together with his children."
      >
      > They fail to mention that Fr. Nicholas Semenoff's children are all
      grown.
      >
      > Meanwhile, the ROCiEs completely heartlessly evicted the loyal
      ROCOR priest
      > in Parish from his home--a priest who **does** have small children.
      >
      > This is the kind of hypocricy that is being perpetrated by these
      > "principled defenders of the truth."
      >
      > The whole thing is simply a power grab.
      >
      > The notorious loose cannon, former Bishop Varnava, had seen that
      his
      > "number was up"--that he had no chance of becoming the new Ruling
      Bishop of
      > Western Europe, and that he was probably going to be sanctioned
      by the
      > other bishops for his outrageous behavior.
      >
      > So he, together with a couple of equally nefarious accomplices,
      staged this
      > operation, whisking the elderly Metropolitan Vitaly away from the
      Synod in
      > New York, and, taking advantage of his frailty and senility,
      creating the
      > uncanonical structure known as ROCiE.
      >
      > This is not a matter of ecclesiology or ideology or "standing for
      the truth."
      >
      > All of that is a smoke-screen, meant to mislead the naive faithful.
      >
      > These conniving individuals tried to manipulate Metropolitan
      Vitaly while
      > he was still First Hierarch, getting him to sign
      several "Statements"
      > critical of the Sobor Resolutions of 2000 that he had himself
      signed and
      > getting him to remove sanctions that had been placed against them
      by the Synod.
      >
      > They knew that they could not continue doing this, so they jumped
      ship and
      > set up their own little clacque, where they could do what they
      wished, with
      > no one responsible to answer to.
      >
      > That's all it is.
      >
      > "Defenders of the true faith," my foot!
      >
      >
      >
      > With love in Christ,
      >
      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
    • Joshua Fraese
      ... theological ... incorrect. ... in the ... without ... (valid in ... the ... provide a ... by ... professes ... Dear Hristofor, Metropolitan Anthony wrote
      Message 73 of 73 , Oct 11, 2002
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        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
        > I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have no
        theological
        > background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct or
        incorrect.
        > However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.
        >
        > First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
        in the
        > Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and those
        without
        > Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"
        (valid in
        > your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent if
        the
        > person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you please
        provide a
        > quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptism
        by
        > heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the person
        professes
        > the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?
        >

        Dear Hristofor,

        Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
        reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
        below:

        "Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
        second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
        sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
        like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
        putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
        conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
        Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
        John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
        remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
        side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
        those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
        believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
        alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
        edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
        the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
        second or third rite), but through the operation of another
        sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
        chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
        Nestorians and Donatists.)"

        You can read this essay in its entirety at:
        http://www.stvladimirs.ca/articles/economia-reception-converts.html

        I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
        whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
        theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
        usage of economia.

        - Joshua Fraese
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