Re: Why the MP Apologetics?
- Dear Father Alexander, Bless!
To questions of principle you answer with personal accusation at
people that mostly I do not know. This is the kind of polemic I do
want to get into .
But it is my duty to rectify the wrong information you give about
people I know out of respect for the readers of this list
Regarding Vl Varnava and his acquaintance with Pamiat. It is a very
old story for which he repented publicly. You do not say that he
was sent in Russia secretely, still under communist rule, to
consecrate bishops. In those days, it was quite dangerous for our
bishops to be in Russia. He was young and naive and no protection
whatsoever. People from Pamiat proposed to protect him and used
this protection to manipulate him. This happened to many and still
happens. Just see how lenient you are with the MP.
Father Nicolas Semenoff has 4 children, one grown up, three other
studying, the youngest is 15/16 years old. So he is still
responsible for three (studies are quite costly). Father Nicolas is
without any salary now (due to Vl Ambrose's actions). His wife is
jobless as for so many years she dedicated herself to the Church and
her children. You can easily imagine how it is difficult now at
their age and after so long to find a job.
The other priest you mention, I suppose Father Evgueny Sapronov.
Yes, he has small children but they are living with their mother in
France where they just have built a house in Versaille and have no
intention whatsoever to come and live in Brussels as she has a very
good teaching job there. He comes only for the services and his
official address in Brussels is just out of convinience. They are
absolutely not homeless.
Father Sapronov was never "evicted" as he never lived in the house
where Father Nicolas is living for already 14 years! It is Father
Nicolas who is evicted, peniless and jobless!
As for Father Ivanov-13, it is true that he disagreed with the ROCIE
positions regarding the question of grace among New Calendarists and
the relationship with Metropolitan Cyprian. But he was not
suspended for this and when Vl Gabriel came to Lyon with his offers
he preferred to stay faithfull to the Church than listen to the song
of the mermaid. It just shows that objections are always accepted,
discussed and at the end resolved in sobornost.
Yours in Christ
> >Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:thus
> >Those who did write more recent things "in the same vein" were
> >defrocked, excommunicated and called schismatic. But they did
> >write "in the same vein" (the traditional one). Their honour is
> >safe and Christ will not be ashamed of them before his heavenlyportray
> The recent posts by Vladimir Kozyreff and Irina Pahlen continue to
> the idea that the motivations of the renegade clergy in France andBelgium
> are completely pure--that they are simply defenders of the truthand the
> historical positions of the ROCOR who are being unjustlypersecuted for
> their standing in the faith.collection
> This is a simplistic and utterly naive view.
> In reality, the whole ROCiE split was manufactured by a motley
> of "avantiuristy" pursuing their own personal agendas--and not bycredibility
> principled defenders of the truth.
> Former Bishop Varnava single-handedly virtually destroyed the
> of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in Russia, byopenly
> endorsing the neo-fascist Pamyat' organization and participatingin some of
> its most outrageous "actions," such as the shameful "avtoprobeg"around
> Moscow, where brown-shirted and jack-booted goons with Nazi-likearmbands
> rode around Moscow in open trucks, waving fascist banners.participate in the
> Former Bishop Varnava also blessed one of his priests to
> Pamyat' "raid" at the editorial offices of "MoskovskijKomsomolets," where
> the jack-booted goons stormed the offices, ripped out the phonesand
> terrorized the staff.Abroad by
> And, former Bishop Varnava completely embarrassed the Church
> signing, on official ROCOR stationery, a letter to the head of thecreate an
> uncanonical "Autonomous Ukranian Church" in which he offered to
> alliance between the Church Abroad and this schismatic body.the
> Add to this that Bishop Varnava confused the entire situation of
> parishes in Russia, by single-handedly rescinding suspensions andand
> depositions imposed by other bishops of the Church Abroad there,
> allying himself with disreputable and disgraced clerics.vitriol
> This is your "Pillar of Truth," Vladimir?
> And look at his associates in the Mansonville schism!
> A renegade monk from Jordanville, who ran away spouting lies and
> against the monastery he had been tonsured in--now he isa "bishop."
> A former Moscow Patriarchate clergyman who so messed up matters in
> Land while he was Head of the Ecclesisatical Mission there that weare
> still reeling from his grievous mistakes in judgement.HOCNA
> A renegade priest who had run away from the Church Abroad into the
> schism, writing all kinds of lies and distortions--and who,several years
> later, claimed to repent, and, although he had been deposed fromholy
> orders, was with great condescension and love by the bishops ofthe Church
> Abroad, was restore to the priesthood--only to once again turn onthe
> bishops who had forgiven him--and once again run away into schism.presence
> Another key player is a priest who, together with his son, in the
> of nine witnesses, attacked an elderly great-grandmother right infront of
> our Cathedral and beat her. Nine witnesses watched this "priest"knock the
> elderly woman to the ground and beat her with his fists. I wascalled to
> the scene and arrived to see the police there talking to aseverely
> battered lady, who had to be taken to the hospital. I havephotographs
> taken that day that show the severe bruises and lacerations on hercalled "defensive
> arms--the outside of her forearms--clearly what are
> wounds." This renegade priest was also instrumental in robbing ourchurch
> of all of its documents--articles of incorporation, deeds, parisharchives
> and photographs, building plans for the cupola project, bank booksand
> financial statements--and icons, liturgical books, and music,among
> truckloads of other items belonging to the parish that he simplycame and
> took. This man's reputation was so unsavory, that every one of hisbrothers
> and sisters--all five of them--wrote a petition to MetropolitanVitaly
> begging him not to allow this man to be ordained to the priesthood-- a
> petition that was accompanied by another petition by the man'sspiritual
> father of many years, also informing the Metropolitan of seriouscanonical
> impediments to the ordination of this man. Unfortunately,Metropolitan
> Vitaly ordained him anyway.Panteleimonites,
> Another player is a priest who left the Synod with the
> manipulated his parish meeting to take the parish with him--who,after
> years of writing derogatory statements about Metropolitan Vitalyand the
> Synod of the ROCOR--suddenly leaves HOCNA, remanipulates hisParish
> Council, and takes the parish into ROCiE, becoming one of itsideologues.
> Another key player, Father German Ivanov-13, has openly disagreed
> Mansonville ROCiE positions regarding the question of grace amongNew
> Calendarists and the relationship with Metropolitan Cyprian, so itis clear
> that there is no "unity of standing in the truth" between theEuropean and
> North-American branches of the tiny ROCiE.ROCiE
> Add to this the confusion between the Mansonville ROCie and the
> bishops in Russia--Lazarus and Benjamin--and you have quitea "kettle of fish."
> No wonder they cannot even agree on a date for a Sobor, which they
> will not be able to have, since the Russian bishops will insist onhaving
> their newly-consecrated bishops participating, while the otherparts of the
> ROCiE will be totally opposed to this.banned
> Meanwhile, "Bishop" Vladimir has been evicted from Canada and is
> from reentering it, so he could not even participate in such aSobor.
> Another point.
> The ROCiEs in Europe have made hay about how cruel Bishop Ambrose
> attempting to evict the renegade Fr. Nicholas Semenoff from hishome
> "together with his children."grown.
> They fail to mention that Fr. Nicholas Semenoff's children are all
> Meanwhile, the ROCiEs completely heartlessly evicted the loyal
> in Parish from his home--a priest who **does** have small children.his
> This is the kind of hypocricy that is being perpetrated by these
> "principled defenders of the truth."
> The whole thing is simply a power grab.
> The notorious loose cannon, former Bishop Varnava, had seen that
> "number was up"--that he had no chance of becoming the new RulingBishop of
> Western Europe, and that he was probably going to be sanctionedby the
> other bishops for his outrageous behavior.staged this
> So he, together with a couple of equally nefarious accomplices,
> operation, whisking the elderly Metropolitan Vitaly away from theSynod in
> New York, and, taking advantage of his frailty and senility,creating the
> uncanonical structure known as ROCiE.the truth."
> This is not a matter of ecclesiology or ideology or "standing for
> All of that is a smoke-screen, meant to mislead the naive faithful.
> These conniving individuals tried to manipulate Metropolitan
> he was still First Hierarch, getting him to signseveral "Statements"
> critical of the Sobor Resolutions of 2000 that he had himselfsigned and
> getting him to remove sanctions that had been placed against themby the Synod.
> They knew that they could not continue doing this, so they jumped
> set up their own little clacque, where they could do what theywished, with
> no one responsible to answer to.
> That's all it is.
> "Defenders of the true faith," my foot!
> With love in Christ,
> Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
- --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
> I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have notheological
> background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct orincorrect.
> However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.in the
> First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
> Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and thosewithout
> Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"(valid in
> your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent ifthe
> person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you pleaseprovide a
> quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptismby
> heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the personprofesses
> the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?Dear Hristofor,
Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
"Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
second or third rite), but through the operation of another
sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
Nestorians and Donatists.)"
You can read this essay in its entirety at:
I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
usage of economia.
- Joshua Fraese