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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why the MP Apologetics?

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  • Margaret Lark
    From: boulia_1 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 07:40:37 -0000 ... Amen, and thanks to Maureen, too -- what a great description! We will
    Message 1 of 73 , Oct 3, 2002
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      From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
      Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 07:40:37 -0000

      >....Worse, the people
      >Fr. Alexander and others have been trying to persuade will NEVER
      >accept any of his arguments, no matter how persuasive; in their
      >stubborn pride, they would rather call the Archpriest and the rest of
      >us liars. Sometimes I think Jesus Christ himself would be unable to
      >change their minds.

      >Thanks for tirelessly trying, though, Father.

      Amen, and thanks to Maureen, too -- what a great description! We will *all* answer for our sins before God, and I have enough of my own to worry about without fretting about those of Bishops and Priests, or my fellow Christians'. (Now, if I could just *remember* that when I'm tempted to talk about any of them....<<sigh>> it's a never-ending battle.)

      I still say that if Metropolitan LAVR were going to "sell out" the Church Abroad by accepting union with Moscow under any conditions, that union would already have taken place. But at least he's talking to the MP, which is progress.

      BTW, I've researched the history of the Church Abroad: From the very beginning, it *was* stipulated that it was to be a temporary organization, until such time as the Church in Russia was freed from the Communist yoke. After 75 years of enslavement, how the heck are they going to *know* how to free themselves if they don't have someone to show them?! That's why dialogue is so important; we owe it to the brethren in Russia to show them what the True Church is supposed to be. Or would you ROCE folks rather see them succumb to the false evangelizers because we preferred to stay wrapped in cotton wool?

      In Christ,
      Margaret Lark

      --
      Glory to God for all things!
      --
    • Joshua Fraese
      ... theological ... incorrect. ... in the ... without ... (valid in ... the ... provide a ... by ... professes ... Dear Hristofor, Metropolitan Anthony wrote
      Message 73 of 73 , Oct 11, 2002
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        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
        > I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have no
        theological
        > background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct or
        incorrect.
        > However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.
        >
        > First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
        in the
        > Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and those
        without
        > Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"
        (valid in
        > your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent if
        the
        > person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you please
        provide a
        > quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptism
        by
        > heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the person
        professes
        > the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?
        >

        Dear Hristofor,

        Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
        reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
        below:

        "Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
        second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
        sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
        like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
        putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
        conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
        Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
        John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
        remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
        side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
        those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
        believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
        alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
        edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
        the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
        second or third rite), but through the operation of another
        sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
        chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
        Nestorians and Donatists.)"

        You can read this essay in its entirety at:
        http://www.stvladimirs.ca/articles/economia-reception-converts.html

        I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
        whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
        theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
        usage of economia.

        - Joshua Fraese
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