Re: Why the MP Apologetics?
- Dear Margaret,
Those who did write more recent things "in the same vein" were
defrocked, excommunicated and called schismatic. But they did
write "in the same vein" (the traditional one). Their honour is thus
safe and Christ will not be ashamed of them before his heavenly
--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...> wrote:
> From: ourlittlecity@a...
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:31:59 EDT
> First of all, I thought that posters were supposed to sign their
posts with their full, and real, name.
> >Extracted from Epistle of the Synod July 14/27 1990 New York.
> Second, the other piece I saw quoted in this same vein was from
1998. This one is from 1990. Does anyone have anything more recent,
like *after* the MP canonized the New Martyrs??
> In Christ,
> Margaret Lark
> Glory to God for all things!
- --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
> I have said it before, but I will say it again: I have notheological
> background, so whatever I say or _beleive_ may be correct orincorrect.
> However, what you have just said sounds patently absurd.in the
> First of all, I think what you are saying applies to all baptisms
> Orthodox Church and not just those preformed by heretics and thosewithout
> Grace: the Sacrament of Baptism becomes "finalised or complete"(valid in
> your words) by confessing the True Faith (done by the godparent ifthe
> person is a baby), Chrismation and Communing. Can you pleaseprovide a
> quote from the Holy Fathers where they speak of receiving a baptismby
> heretics, which then becomes a valid Sacrament "when the personprofesses
> the true faith and becomes part of the true Church."?Dear Hristofor,
Metropolitan Anthony wrote an outstanding essay on the subject of the
reception of converts. I've taken the liberty of quoting from it
"Every mystery has two sides - the visible and the invisible. The
second is administered only within the true Church by faith and
sincere prayer, according to the words of the Apostle Peter: "The
like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God) but the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1
Pet. 3:21). And the same thought is found also in the teaching of St.
John Damascene. For those who are baptized without faith "the water
remains water" only. Heretics and schismatics, having the visible
side of baptism, chrismation and holy orders, are entirely devoid of
those gifts of grace which are bound up with these mysteries for
believers within the true Church. Therefore, certain of them, for the
alleviation of the rupture in their spiritual life and for "the
edification of many," are permitted to enter the Church without
the visible side of the mysteries or holy orders (that is, by the
second or third rite), but through the operation of another
sacramental act in which they receive the grace of baptism,
chrismation and holy orders. (For example, for Roman Catholics,
Nestorians and Donatists.)"
You can read this essay in its entirety at:
I hope this selection helps clear things up a bit - if not, read the
whole essay - Metropolitan Anthony really goes into the patristic
theology of the issue and explains the Orthodox thinking behind the
usage of economia.
- Joshua Fraese