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Re: alternative topics (was RE: [orthodox-synod] Article in Moscow Times: Bells Ring In Spiritual Rebirth)

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  • Kiril Bart
    Fr. Mark, have a nice trip to California, traffic there might be as bad as Chicago, but drivers generaly less rude and let you change lines rather easy. Keep
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 7, 2002
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      Fr. Mark, have a nice trip to California, traffic
      there might be as bad as Chicago, but drivers generaly
      less rude and let you change lines rather easy. Keep
      it in mind that you will need a written permission
      from Bp. Kirill if you want to serve in California.
      Have an Angel with you on your trip,
      subdeacon Kirill.

      --- rev mark gilstrap <fr.mark@...> wrote:
      > > Whoever is monitoring this List, please include
      > the attachments I sent
      > with my post. Thank you.
      >
      > In order to protect against virus-infected content
      > "Email attachments are not permitted" in the Groups
      > setting for this list. Non-text is automatically
      > removed
      > from all postings by the Yahoogroups software.
      >
      > I believe the "orthodoxjurisdictions" list allows
      > such
      > attachments - and even encouages
      > inter-jurisdictional
      > squabbling to take place there in an effort to
      > divert
      > such content from other lists.
      >
      > How about we talk about something more edifying
      > here? There is no doubt that we can find plenty of
      > controversy even in topics such as music conferences
      > (such as the one coming up in Chicago).
      >
      > Those of you who have been lurking... join in.
      >
      > This list has a larger membership than any other
      > orthodox list I know of (even surpassing Orthodox-
      > Tradition and Ustav which draw members from
      > many jurisdictions) and it seems a waste to not
      > use this resource for the best purposes. (Note:
      > I exclude the 1000+ member original "Indiana"
      > ORTHODOX list from which this sub-list sprang
      > forth a decade ago, since the venerable LISTSERV
      > lists are in a different category)
      >
      > ROCA Community-building is the primary purpose
      > of this list. I like to compare it to Trapeza.
      > Do
      > you like to sit next to the guy who always stirs the
      > pot, talks politics and spreads rumors? We must
      > come together in community through the sharing of
      > the Mysteries in the Church. This is not easy for
      > everyone, esp those isolated by distance. At least
      > let this list help contribute to, rather than tear
      > down,
      > the vehicle which will take us where we need to go.
      >
      > How about a review of this years' summer camps in
      > Illinois, Pennsyvania and elsewhere.
      >
      > What pilgrimages are coming up? I understand there
      > will be a retreat at Holy Cross Hermitage in West
      > Virginia the last week of September. This
      > week-end
      > is the Russian Festival in Stratford Conneticut.
      >
      > I think there is a singles conference soon. How
      > does
      > this compare to the time honored potential-spouse-
      > meetings at summer camp and St Herman's conferences,
      > or frequenting Jordanville (by future matuishki),
      > or
      > parish tours (by batchelors)? Have we no match-
      > makers left? Are singles left to their own
      > devices?
      >
      > How about that Big Fat Greek Wedding? I actually
      > tried some Windex on a hand injury since I had it in
      > my
      > hand anyway.
      >
      > An informal survey: How many of you live where
      > there
      > is no ROCA parish? How do you cope with that?
      > We travelled for 9 years so I know the burden. I
      > miss
      > travelling now.
      >
      > There are some parishes that make attendance from
      > afar easy, and others that make you wish you
      > weren't
      > there. What can a parish do to help ease the
      > already
      > heavy burden a traveller faces?
      >
      > I would suggest that people who have never had to
      > travel learn one lesson at least. A traveller's
      > whole
      > community experience may consist of these
      > "pilgrimages"
      > to your parish. If they do not get to interact
      > with
      > anyone, they may not come back. Don't play a role
      > in someone's falling away. Hang around church with
      > them for an unhurried conversation at least. And
      > they don't want to be treated as visitors. They
      > need
      > to feel a part of the community - keep them updated
      > on anything they may have missed. You would be
      > surprised by what kind of little factoids make all
      > the
      > difference in whether or not one feels connected -
      > whether or not one feels like a real *member* of the
      > parish.
      >
      > Trapeza - does your parish have a coffee hour after
      > services? A snack? A real meal? Don't expect
      > travellers to stay for pastry and coffee, epecially
      > if
      > they have kids. They need real food, and will
      > depart early to feed the kids if they can't share
      > real
      > food with you. Don't charge extra for the food to
      > pay
      > for a parish hall or new cuploa either. Do you
      > realize
      > how much it costs to travel to your parish? Did
      > you
      > make it possible for your distant *members* to not
      > stay in a motel? Or, if there is no alternative to
      > a
      > motel, does your parish have a "deal" with a nearby
      > motel so the *member* from afar doesn't realize his
      > stay is being subsidized?
      >
      > Another lesson: even your local parishioners may
      > have no other orthodox contact outside services.
      > Trapeza is a time to come together as a community.
      > I know several priest's wives have posted on this
      > subject in the past.
      >
      > =======
      >
      > Several lists are talking about fasting rules right
      > now.
      > Midnight to midnight? Vespers to Vespers. Sundown
      > to sundown? Sunup to sundown - all these have been
      > mentioned as "acceptable" practices. In ROCA I
      > have
      > heard of bedtime to bedtime (which tends to cover
      > spousal relations as well).
      >
      > My question revolves around social activity of
      > teens.
      > I heard one ROCA member suggesting that if you
      > follow
      > sundown to sundown timing of your fasting day, then
      > our
      > orthodox teens can actually go out on at least one
      > week-
      > end night (Friday) and share a pizza with their
      > friends.
      > Comments? Conpatibility with bishop's instructions?
      >
      > ========
      >
      > One last question. Please correspond privately if
      > you
      > feel more comfortable. It looks like my secular
      > job
      > will take me to California for a few days in the
      > next
      > few weeks. I will be somewhere between LA and
      > San Diego - the closest ROCA listing I see seems to
      > be in Santa Ana - apparently a storefront mission
      > with
      > no priest. What parishes in the area would be open
      > during the week in Los Angeles and to the south?
      > Who, if any, are no longer with ROCA?
      >
      > And what attractions do I need to not miss. I won't
      > have much time, so I need places I can drive by or
      > stop in quickly to see at little or no admission
      > cost.
      >
      > And lastly - will I survive a car trip from LAX
      > south on
      > I-405 or I-5? Any warnings in this regard welcomed.
      >
      > I learned to drive in Kansas City rush hour traffic
      > and I
      > do well in Chicago (can traverse several routes from
      > Evanston or Des Plaines to Indiana) owing to
      > familiarity,
      > and have even survived Houston traffic - but does
      > that
      > qualifiy me for any confidence on an unfamiliar
      > first visit
      > to California?
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Looking forward to hearing about what you are
      > interested in.
      >
      > pr Mark
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
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    • Margaret Lark
      From: rev mark gilstrap Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:37:05 -0500 Father, bless! ... Oh, is *that* the purpose of this list. I actually
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 7, 2002
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        From: "rev mark gilstrap" <fr.mark@...>
        Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:37:05 -0500

        Father, bless!

        >ROCA Community-building is the primary purpose
        >of this list.

        Oh, is *that* the purpose of this list. I actually had it on web-read for awhile because it got so rambunctious. Thank you, Father, for mentioning this (I'm not being facetious, I really didn't know what the list was for).

        >An informal survey: How many of you live where there
        >is no ROCA parish? How do you cope with that?

        Here, here! (Southeast NH) Every ROCA parish lies 50+ miles away from our house, and since my husband commutes 3 hours one way - every day - he hasn't cared too much to make that kind of trip every week. However, until 9/15 we will have belonged to a small ROCA mission that is holding its last liturgy on that date, and we will miss it - we've grown rather fond of the parish and its people. But its priest has been transferred, and there aren't really enough people to justify the Diocese sending a priest there.

        The good news is, there's another parish almost as "close," so at least my husband and I can go there every other week (we alternate with a Greek parish that is much closer - and very Greek). Can't make it for Vespers, though - and I sing.

        >Trapeza - does your parish have a coffee hour after
        >services? A snack? A real meal? Don't expect
        >travellers to stay for pastry and coffee, epecially if
        >they have kids. They need real food, and will
        >depart early to feed the kids if they can't share real
        >food with you. Don't charge extra for the food to pay
        >for a parish hall or new cuploa either. Do you realize
        >how much it costs to travel to your parish? Did you
        >make it possible for your distant *members* to not
        >stay in a motel? Or, if there is no alternative to a
        >motel, does your parish have a "deal" with a nearby
        >motel so the *member* from afar doesn't realize his
        >stay is being subsidized?

        Gee whiz, what great ideas! The parish that is closing never had trapeza - not enough room in the "Upper Room" (literally!) - but the parish we are going to will have one. I must say, though, my husband has expressed dismay at the thought of having to stay for a full meal, and would much prefer the coffee-and-pastry setup.

        Now, my *other* question. The other folks in the parish that's closing have the option of travelling to another ROCA parish about 35 miles away. There are quite a few in my area, though, who do the 50+ mile thing as often as they can; we also have had an influx of Russian immigrants within the past 3 years, and a university nearby. You see where this is going, I'm sure - how can I start up a mission for folks in these parts?

        Fifty miles isn't that far, compared to some I know. But traffic in the Northeast can get pretty horrendous, and some of these folks (esp. the university kids) can't drive all that far. I'm wondering if we at least have a chance of getting someone, if I only knew where to start.

        Kissing your right hand, and again thanks for mentioning the goal of this list,
        Margaret Lark

        --
        Glory to God for all things!
        --
      • benjaminwaterhouse
        Father, Bless! ... sent ... Amen to that ... Here I am ... Does anybody know if this is going to be released in the UK? ... We try and do this at our mission
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 9, 2002
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          Father, Bless!

          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "rev mark gilstrap" <fr.mark@s...> wrote:
          > > Whoever is monitoring this List, please include the attachments I
          sent
          > with my post. Thank you.
          >
          > In order to protect against virus-infected content
          > "Email attachments are not permitted" in the Groups
          > setting for this list. Non-text is automatically removed
          > from all postings by the Yahoogroups software.
          >
          > I believe the "orthodoxjurisdictions" list allows such
          > attachments - and even encouages inter-jurisdictional
          > squabbling to take place there in an effort to divert
          > such content from other lists.
          >
          > How about we talk about something more edifying
          > here? There is no doubt that we can find plenty of
          > controversy even in topics such as music conferences
          > (such as the one coming up in Chicago).

          Amen to that

          >
          > Those of you who have been lurking... join in.

          Here I am

          >
          > This list has a larger membership than any other
          > orthodox list I know of (even surpassing Orthodox-
          > Tradition and Ustav which draw members from
          > many jurisdictions) and it seems a waste to not
          > use this resource for the best purposes. (Note:
          > I exclude the 1000+ member original "Indiana"
          > ORTHODOX list from which this sub-list sprang
          > forth a decade ago, since the venerable LISTSERV
          > lists are in a different category)
          >
          > ROCA Community-building is the primary purpose
          > of this list. I like to compare it to Trapeza. Do
          > you like to sit next to the guy who always stirs the
          > pot, talks politics and spreads rumors? We must
          > come together in community through the sharing of
          > the Mysteries in the Church. This is not easy for
          > everyone, esp those isolated by distance. At least
          > let this list help contribute to, rather than tear down,
          > the vehicle which will take us where we need to go.
          >
          > How about a review of this years' summer camps in
          > Illinois, Pennsyvania and elsewhere.
          >
          > What pilgrimages are coming up? I understand there
          > will be a retreat at Holy Cross Hermitage in West
          > Virginia the last week of September. This week-end
          > is the Russian Festival in Stratford Conneticut.
          >
          > I think there is a singles conference soon. How does
          > this compare to the time honored potential-spouse-
          > meetings at summer camp and St Herman's conferences,
          > or frequenting Jordanville (by future matuishki), or
          > parish tours (by batchelors)? Have we no match-
          > makers left? Are singles left to their own devices?
          >
          > How about that Big Fat Greek Wedding? I actually
          > tried some Windex on a hand injury since I had it in my
          > hand anyway.


          Does anybody know if this is going to be released in the UK?


          > An informal survey: How many of you live where there
          > is no ROCA parish? How do you cope with that?
          > We travelled for 9 years so I know the burden. I miss
          > travelling now.
          >
          > There are some parishes that make attendance from
          > afar easy, and others that make you wish you weren't
          > there. What can a parish do to help ease the already
          > heavy burden a traveller faces?
          >
          > I would suggest that people who have never had to
          > travel learn one lesson at least. A traveller's whole
          > community experience may consist of these "pilgrimages"
          > to your parish. If they do not get to interact with
          > anyone, they may not come back. Don't play a role
          > in someone's falling away. Hang around church with
          > them for an unhurried conversation at least. And
          > they don't want to be treated as visitors. They need
          > to feel a part of the community - keep them updated
          > on anything they may have missed. You would be
          > surprised by what kind of little factoids make all the
          > difference in whether or not one feels connected -
          > whether or not one feels like a real *member* of the
          > parish.

          We try and do this at our mission here at St Boniface, Ryde Isle of
          Wight, England; but I think we need to gently publicise a bit more.
          There are only six of us in regular attendance so we will have to try
          extra hard not to be cliquey (strange spelling!)

          >
          > Trapeza - does your parish have a coffee hour after
          > services? A snack? A real meal? Don't expect
          > travellers to stay for pastry and coffee, epecially if
          > they have kids. They need real food, and will
          > depart early to feed the kids if they can't share real
          > food with you. Don't charge extra for the food to pay
          > for a parish hall or new cuploa either. Do you realize
          > how much it costs to travel to your parish? Did you
          > make it possible for your distant *members* to not
          > stay in a motel? Or, if there is no alternative to a
          > motel, does your parish have a "deal" with a nearby
          > motel so the *member* from afar doesn't realize his
          > stay is being subsidized?

          Yes we do a parish breakfast after Divine Liturgy when Father Alexis
          comes down with the Brothers from St Edwards Brookwood about once
          every five weeks or so. When we do Hours and Typica on a normal
          Sunday we always have teas and coffee and a chat. maybe we need to
          get some biscuits or something.

          >
          > Another lesson: even your local parishioners may
          > have no other orthodox contact outside services.
          > Trapeza is a time to come together as a community.
          > I know several priest's wives have posted on this
          > subject in the past.
          >
          > =======
          >
          > Several lists are talking about fasting rules right now.
          > Midnight to midnight? Vespers to Vespers. Sundown
          > to sundown? Sunup to sundown - all these have been
          > mentioned as "acceptable" practices. In ROCA I have
          > heard of bedtime to bedtime (which tends to cover
          > spousal relations as well).
          >
          > My question revolves around social activity of teens.
          > I heard one ROCA member suggesting that if you follow
          > sundown to sundown timing of your fasting day, then our
          > orthodox teens can actually go out on at least one week-
          > end night (Friday) and share a pizza with their friends.
          > Comments? Conpatibility with bishop's instructions?
          >
          > ========
          >
          > One last question. Please correspond privately if you
          > feel more comfortable. It looks like my secular job
          > will take me to California for a few days in the next
          > few weeks. I will be somewhere between LA and
          > San Diego - the closest ROCA listing I see seems to
          > be in Santa Ana - apparently a storefront mission with
          > no priest. What parishes in the area would be open
          > during the week in Los Angeles and to the south?
          > Who, if any, are no longer with ROCA?
          >
          > And what attractions do I need to not miss. I won't
          > have much time, so I need places I can drive by or
          > stop in quickly to see at little or no admission cost.
          >
          > And lastly - will I survive a car trip from LAX south on
          > I-405 or I-5? Any warnings in this regard welcomed.
          >
          > I learned to drive in Kansas City rush hour traffic and I
          > do well in Chicago (can traverse several routes from
          > Evanston or Des Plaines to Indiana) owing to familiarity,
          > and have even survived Houston traffic - but does that
          > qualifiy me for any confidence on an unfamiliar first visit
          > to California?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Looking forward to hearing about what you are interested in.
          >
          > pr Mark

          What a breath of fresh air this is, thank you Father

          Kissing your right hand
          sinner
          cat Benjamin
        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... The former deacon who started this mission is no longer with the Church Abroad. He is now listed in the HOCNA directory as a priest. ... Dear Fr. Mark, We
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 9, 2002
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            Fr. Mark wrote:


            >One last question. Please correspond privately if you
            >feel more comfortable. It looks like my secular job
            >will take me to California for a few days in the next
            >few weeks. I will be somewhere between LA and
            >San Diego - the closest ROCA listing I see seems to
            >be in Santa Ana - apparently a storefront mission with
            >no priest.

            The former deacon who started this mission is no longer with the Church
            Abroad. He is now listed in the HOCNA directory as a priest.


            > What parishes in the area would be open
            >during the week in Los Angeles and to the south?

            Dear Fr. Mark,

            We would love to see you at the Cathedral in Los Angeles when you come
            down. Depending on the feast days, we often have services during the week
            (this week we are serving on the Beheading of St. John the Baptis, on St.
            Alexander Nevsky and on the Ecclesiastical New Year (four vigils and
            liturgies this week).


            >Who, if any, are no longer with ROCA?



            Well, the Santa Ana mission has gone HOCNA and the Glendora parish has gone
            ROCiE (Varnava).

            That leaves two parishes in Los Angeles, the parish in Oxnard, the parish
            in Santa Barbara (all North of where you will be), and the only parish
            South is San Diego.

            Please let me know when you plan to arrive, and maybe we can meet and I
            could show you around if you have any free time.

            P.S. The driving is fine--except the Orange County freeways can be jammed
            at various times--and not just at rush hour.


            >And what attractions do I need to not miss. I won't
            >have much time, so I need places I can drive by or
            >stop in quickly to see at little or no admission cost.

            Laguna Beach is very pretty-lots of art galleries and museums.

            A couple of the old Missions in Orange County are interesting--like the one
            at San Juan Capistrano, where the swallows always return on March 19.



            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... Kirill, where do you get such things? It s absolutely untrue. We have had dozens (if not hundreds) of visiting clergy from other Dioceses serving here in
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 10, 2002
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              Kirill Bart wrote regarding Fr. Mark's question:

              >Fr. Mark, have a nice trip to California, traffic
              >there might be as bad as Chicago, but drivers generaly
              >less rude and let you change lines rather easy. Keep
              >it in mind that you will need a written permission
              >from Bp. Kirill if you want to serve in California.
              > Have an Angel with you on your trip,
              > subdeacon Kirill.
              >

              Kirill, where do you get such things?

              It's absolutely untrue.

              We have had dozens (if not hundreds) of visiting clergy from other Dioceses
              serving here in California during their visits--and not one of them has
              been required to get written permission from Vl. Kyrill in order to serve.

              I have served as a guest in virtually every Diocese of the Church
              Abroad--and have **never** been required to obtain written permission from
              the local bishop in order to serve.

              If they are clergy in good standing in the Church Abroad, they are welcome
              to serve in any of our parishes with the blessing of the Rector.

              It is courteous to inform the Bishop or the appropriate Dean that one is
              coming to visit the diocese--but no one is required to produce paperwork,
              nor is written permission ever required.

              Finally, Kirill, is it your place to inform (wrongly or rightly) priests as
              to what ecclesiastical procedures will be required of them when they travel?




              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
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