Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[orthodox-synod] Re: Die Musik

Expand Messages
  • LJames6034@aol.com
    Oleg, I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I say is not intended to be taken literally. I was intending to point out a
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Oleg,

      I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I
      say is not intended to be taken literally.

      I was intending to point out a certain ethnocentricism inherent in your
      notion that one has to be born Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music.

      Would you make the same (rather strange) requirement for all Russian music,
      or just that of the Russian Church?

      Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
      Spring"?


      I don't thnink so!


      Father Andrew

      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

      eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
    • LJames6034@aol.com
      Thank you, Father John, That was very funny. My thought, as you doubtless know, was intended to aim at phyletism and ethnocentricism, which seem to me to be
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you, Father John,

        That was very funny.

        My thought, as you doubtless know, was intended to aim at phyletism and
        ethnocentricism, which seem to me to be manifestations of a form of mental
        illness.

        Father Andrew

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
      • Oleg Reoutt
        ... Dear Father John, what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to, walk out of the church, prove? I love Znamennyj Chant: we often
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
          >
          > Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when
          > L'vov's music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral
          > of the Dormition, in the Kremlin), the worshippers, who had been
          > accustomed to going there specially to hear Znamenny chant, were so
          > offended that many walked out of the church.

          Dear Father John,
          what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to,
          walk out of the church, prove?
          I love Znamennyj Chant: we often use it to sing "Velichanie", prokimen
          and "Exapostilarion" on feast days. But how about Kievan chant (not the
          Bahmetev simplified)? Beautiful. How about Soloviev's Passion Week from
          the Cerkovno Pevcheskij Sbornik (St Petersburg 1904)? etc...

          >> You have named many famous composers, but remember that, had it
          > not been for the older liturgical music of the Russian Church, they would
          > have had nowhere to start from...

          But is'nt that the way it normally happens? Should today's composer give
          up because everything has already been accomplished?

          Oleg

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------

          eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
        • Oleg Reoutt
          ... Dear Father Andrew, Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky s church music being weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            LJames6034@... wrote:
            >
            > Oleg,
            >
            > I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I
            > say is not intended to be taken literally.
            >
            > I was intending to point out a certain ethnocentricism inherent in your
            > notion that one has to be born Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music.

            Dear Father Andrew,
            Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky's church music being
            weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the exact
            words, but my recollection) made by posters with non-Russian names, I
            was moved to a tongue in cheek reply. Beethoven is not Russian, but his
            music is fantastic. The same holds for Mozart, Bizet, Dvorak to name a
            few.

            >> Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
            > Spring"?

            Now Stravinsky is often difficult for me. Have you heard his "Our
            Father"?

            I know that you know that Pushkin is not Welsh.

            Oleg

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------

            eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          • LJames6034@aol.com
            If Stravinsky wrote an Our Father, I have never heard it. I confess that, as I get older, Stravinsky becomes less and less difficult to hear. I do not know
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.

              I confess that, as I get older, Stravinsky becomes less and less difficult to
              hear.

              I do not know what that means: It could be that one's hearing tends to
              deteriorate with age!

              Yes, I knew you would know I know Pushkin. Why, come to think of it, I have
              even been to Pushkin (Tsarkoe Selo), where the Summer Palace has been
              meticulously rebuilt, following the German visit.

              Try as they might, the communists were never able to co-opt Pushkin.

              Father Andrew

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------

              eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              Perhaps we are arguing at cross-purposes. If you include the ancient music along with the composers who reworked it, then we are on the same wavelength... ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                Perhaps we are arguing at cross-purposes. If you include the ancient music
                along with the composers who reworked it, then we are on the same
                wavelength...

                On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Oleg Reoutt wrote:

                >
                >
                > "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
                > >
                > > Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when
                > > L'vov's music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral
                > > of the Dormition, in the Kremlin), the worshippers, who had been
                > > accustomed to going there specially to hear Znamenny chant, were so
                > > offended that many walked out of the church.
                >
                > Dear Father John,
                > what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to,
                > walk out of the church, prove?
                > I love Znamennyj Chant: we often use it to sing "Velichanie", prokimen
                > and "Exapostilarion" on feast days. But how about Kievan chant (not the
                > Bahmetev simplified)? Beautiful. How about Soloviev's Passion Week from
                > the Cerkovno Pevcheskij Sbornik (St Petersburg 1904)? etc...
                >
                > >> You have named many famous composers, but remember that, had it
                > > not been for the older liturgical music of the Russian Church, they would
                > > have had nowhere to start from...
                >
                > But is'nt that the way it normally happens? Should today's composer give
                > up because everything has already been accomplished?
                >
                > Oleg
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > FREE email Newsletters delivered right to your in-box.
                > CNET, USAToday, RollingStone, and more�
                > Click Here Now! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/314
                >
                >
                > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              • Rev. John R. Shaw
                I should point out that though I have a non-Russian name , I speak fluent Russian. Reoutt could be taken for non-Russian , although it may be abbreviated
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  I should point out that though I have a "non-Russian name", I speak
                  fluent Russian. "Reoutt" could be taken for "non-Russian", although it
                  may be abbreviated from "Reutov". At the Slavic Department of the
                  University where I studied, there was a "Dr. Shaw" who taught Russian
                  literature--but "Shaw" in her case was abbreviated from
                  "Shevchenko".Don't judge a book by its cover, or a person by their
                  surname!
                  >
                  Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky's church music being
                  > weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the exact
                  > words, but my recollection) made by posters with non-Russian names, I
                  > was moved to a tongue in cheek reply. Beethoven is not Russian, but his
                  > music is fantastic. The same holds for Mozart, Bizet, Dvorak to name a
                  > few.
                  >
                  > >> Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
                  > > Spring"?
                  >
                  > Now Stravinsky is often difficult for me. Have you heard his "Our
                  > Father"?
                  >
                  > I know that you know that Pushkin is not Welsh.
                  >
                  > Oleg
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > eGroups now offers FREE email newsletters!
                  > Women.com, RollingStone, Travelocity, and more�
                  > Sign-up Now! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/315
                  >
                  >
                  > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                • Matanna@aol.com
                  ... Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother (younger, not older) later categorized as being po-stravinskomu (roughly translates
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.<

                    Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother (younger,
                    not older) later categorized as being "po-stravinskomu" (roughly translates
                    "the Stravinksy way") because of our marked failures in execution.....

                    ;-D

                    FWIW, Lermontov had Scottish blood.


                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  • Robert S Miller
                    Lermontov had Scots blood, hence genes. And the Royal Family had a Scots physician for some years, although the fated Dr. Botkin had succeeded him: Don t know
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Lermontov had Scots blood, hence genes. And
                      the Royal Family had a Scots physician for some
                      years, although the fated Dr. Botkin had succeeded him:
                      Don't know the reason. And whether the Scots physician
                      sang Znamenny chant is likewise unknown. The real
                      point is that Orthdox Christianity is Universal/Catholic,
                      so, the way I understand it, discussion of Znamenny or
                      Kievan or Sibirsky Rospev concerns really how Russia
                      adapted/adopted the Chant/Prayer from its Orthodox
                      Enlightener, Byzantium.
                      Some may think it puts too fine a point on it to say
                      that what we like to hear in Church music puts the
                      situation backward: We are supposed to allow ourselves
                      to be formed by the Church, and we should not impose
                      what we like on the Church. That, of course, is very
                      idealistic. Pastorally, the Chant/Church music
                      should not be a musical or aesthetic disaster,
                      in any case: when the senses are jangled, so is the soul.
                      In short, choirs, if functioning, should rehearse and
                      rehearse until they get it right, singing whatever
                      music leads the people to better communal prayer.
                      Probably I got a little pompous here.

                      Joseph M

                      ----------
                      > From: Matanna@...
                      > To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Die Musik
                      > Date: Saturday, June 12, 1999 9:22 AM
                      >
                      > >If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.<
                      >
                      > Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother
                      (younger,
                      > not older) later categorized as being "po-stravinskomu" (roughly
                      translates
                      > "the Stravinksy way") because of our marked failures in execution.....
                      >
                      > ;-D
                      >
                      > FWIW, Lermontov had Scottish blood.
                      >


                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                      http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    • LJames6034@aol.com
                      Dear Anna, When I was a little boy, older people told me: You ll learn patience, when you are older. They lied. Sometimes I wish I were patient, but,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Anna,

                        When I was a little boy, older people told me: "You'll learn patience, when
                        you are older."

                        They lied.

                        Sometimes I wish I were patient, but, frankly, I find all the emphasis upon
                        national origin suspect, at best. One of the great Russian writers would sit
                        down and take two glasses, one containing water, the containing wine.

                        He would mix these two. The water suggested German ancestry. The red wine
                        was symbolic of good Russian blood.

                        He went back several generations in the Royal Family, admixing German water
                        with Russian wine, until he got to the Emperor then reigning. The Russian
                        wine had turned to German water.

                        Among Royal Families, prior to the Protestant Reformation, all the families
                        were one family.

                        George Bush had more royal ancestors than any of our presidents, except
                        George Washington. Bush is even descended from that same family as King Zog
                        of Albania, believe it or not.

                        Here is a little something from Dimitri Oblensky's Byzantine Commonwealth
                        (New York: Praeger Publishers, 1971). Obelnsky (p. 225) said: ". . . a
                        Byzantine princess, almost certainly the daughter of Constasntine IX
                        Monomachus, was to marry a younger son of Prince Yaroslav of Kiev."

                        "The child of this marriage born in 1053, is a distinguished figure in
                        Russian history. Called Vladimir, he inherited his imperial grandfather's
                        surname which the Russian rendered as Monomakh. Equally outstanding as a
                        statesman, a general, a writer and a man, Vladimir Monomakh has been compared
                        to King Alfred of England."

                        Well he might be, his children were the descendants of St. Alfred the Great.

                        This is how that happened.

                        Obelensky (p. 226) says:

                        ". . . his mother was a Byzantine princess; one of his uncles married the
                        daughter of the king of Poland; of his three aunts, one married the king of
                        Norway, another married Henry I of France, a third became the wife of the
                        king of Hungary. Vladimir's own wife was the daugther of King Harold of
                        England; his eldest son married the daughter of the king of Sweden, his
                        daughter married the king of Hungary; and his granddaughger married into the
                        imperial family of the Comeni."

                        With all this admixture of Good Russian Blood with the blood of the Royal
                        Families of Western Europe, surely, somewhere along the way, there had to be
                        various "borrowings" of one thing and another? Genes, if nothing else!

                        King Harold, II, was the last Orthodox king of England. At the Battle of
                        Hastings, he was shot in the eye by a Norman knight. The Normans cut off his
                        head, and threw it, together with his left leg, somewhere, away. But,
                        Harold's descendants came to rule Russia. Just as the last Saxon kings came
                        to rule both England and Scotland, via Edward the Aetheling's descendants,
                        the Stewarts. It is just that few of us remember the Saxon ancestry of the
                        Russian Royal House.

                        In Eisenstein's wonderful movie: "Alexander Nevsky," one is shown the heroic
                        figure of St. Alexander (in a John Barrymore stance). Mongols ask "Who are
                        you?" He answers: "Kynaz Alexander. I am prince here."

                        A little redundancy there. A "knyaz" is a "prince," but, no matter. That
                        scene is historically inaccurate, in that, it was the Mogols who made St.
                        Alexander "prince."
                        Not that I am complaining.

                        As Gilbert and Sullivan once put it: "Things are seldom what they seem.
                        Skim milk masquerades as cream. . . . "

                        When I was a boy, we learned to say: "De gustibus non disputatem." (Don't
                        argue about taste). That's a dictum to cover any musical or artistic taste,
                        Russian or otherwise, I think.

                        Surely, after Herr Hitler, it will one day become silly to discuss racial or
                        ethnic purity?

                        The Russian Royal House is my best argument for abandoning all that.

                        God hasten the day.


                        Father Andrew L. J. James, Ph.D., knyaz

                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                      • LJames6034@aol.com
                        What I meant to say, when I said: Just as the descendants of the Saxon kings came to rule England and Scotland, via descent from Edward the Aetheling,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          What I meant to say, when I said: "Just as the descendants of the Saxon
                          kings came to rule England and Scotland, via descent from Edward the
                          Aetheling, through the Stewarts, so, also, descendants of the Saxon kings
                          came to rule over Russia." I presume most of you knew that. Try to forgive
                          me for the sentence fragment.

                          I cannot abide sentence fragments.

                          I complained about that in a letter to the Sunday Magazine of The New York
                          Times, concerning an article written by Susan Sontag.

                          All I said was:

                          "Just war. Good.
                          Sentence fragments. Bad."

                          God is rewarding me for being a smart aleck.


                          Father Andrew

                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.