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Re: Where does Grace lye??

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  • nectarios@iveron.org
    Who but God knows where Grace is and is NOT!!! The Orthodox have Grace, this much is known.... Is there Grace with the Mohammedan who has never even heard the
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 9 3:50 PM
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      Who but God knows where Grace is and is NOT!!!

      The Orthodox have Grace, this much is known....

      Is there Grace with the Mohammedan who has never even heard the Name of
      Christ? Is there grace with a Buddhist who has never uttered the word
      "God??"

      Is there Grace with a heretical Christian who has not even heard of ancient
      Orthodoxy, because there are many??

      Where does Grace lye?

      Do I believe myself to have Grace? No! Because I am a terrible sinner! So
      where does it lye? ....and where does it not?? No one knows this but God...

      In Christ's Love,
      Rdr. Nectarios



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Joseph Digrande" <paisiosj@...>
      To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:27 AM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] MP has obviously rejected sergianism


      > I cannot speak for Arch. Varnava but I can speak fo
      > many in our Church. The reasons why I left ROCOR were
      > that I could no longer in good conscience be in a
      > Church that:
      >
      > A/ was in full eucharistic communion with the Serbs
      > B/ was in full eucharistic communion with Cyprian of
      > Fili
      > C) believed that the NC/MP has grace of the sacraments
      > and a valid clergy.
      > D) sends it laity to NC parishes when no ROCOR Church
      > is in the neighborhood- I live in Alaska and that was
      > their policy with me. I was given the blessing to
      > confess and commune in the OCA which I did until my
      > spiritual father forbade it. The OCA is NC in the
      > cities of Alaska and OC in the villages.
      >
      > Union with the MP in the future had nothing to do with
      > it but with these four conditions present, I cannot
      > see how they can avoid union in the future.
      >
      > I came into ROCOR in 1983- the year of the anathema. I
      > was brought in by liberal priest who was already
      > holding secret meetings with "Met" Pitirim of the MP
      > whenever he came through on ecumenist business in the
      > late 80's. I was given the liberal arguments that
      > Father Alexander and John also give here. I was not
      > really exposed to the other side until the Internet
      > opened up many historical documents. ROCOR should have
      > signed on with the TOC declaration of 1935 but instead
      > continued having tea with the Masons in
      > Constantinople. Had I apprehended that at my
      > conversion, I would have never joined ROCOR. Still I
      > met many good people in ROCOR. My spiritual father
      > (Nektary of Jerusalem) told me near his death to "wait
      > for the schism and stay in the Russian Church." He
      > died in July, 2000. And that is what I did. I waited
      > and joined ROCE.
      >
      > joseph digrande
      > --- Hristofor <hristofor@...> wrote:
      > > Vladimir has posted this from the MP, as well as
      > > another MP item fairly
      > > anti-ROCA in tone, regarding the MP 's (non)
      > > renunciation of Sergianism. I
      > > would think that this proves the case that the chasm
      > > between the MP and
      > > ROCA is still wide, and that union is still a long
      > > way off. As far as I
      > > know, sergianism is still unacceptable to our
      > > bishops. That being the case,
      > > why is Vladyka Varnava no longer with us? What was
      > > the premature rush to
      > > leave and create a schism?
      > >
      > > Vl Varanva chose not to sign the letter of the Oct
      > > 200 Sobor (though as
      > > Vladimir pointed out in his posting on sobornost),
      > > his personal opinions,
      > > possibly voiced at the sobor, do not count; rulings
      > > and encyclicals of the
      > > whole Synod take preference. Someone who I know was
      > > very close to him and
      > > begged him not to take this insane step, if he felt
      > > he must leave, at least
      > > wait until there was a real union. But, his pleas
      > > were to no avail.
      > >
      > > In my view, in order to "make their case stronger,"
      > > those no longer with
      > > the ROCA have cleverly muddied the waters, by
      > > combing at least 3 separate
      > > issues into one:
      > > 1) The French clergy-Vl. Ambrosy-Synod
      > > 2) Union with the MP
      > > 3) The retirement of Metropolitan Vitaly and his
      > > kidnapping
      > >
      > > My mother-in-law still attends services on rue
      > > Claude Lorrian in Paris. She
      > > rarely mentions the Vl Amvrosy issue; it is almost
      > > an aside. On the other
      > > hand, she only talks about Red Moscow, the Soviet
      > > Church, and union with
      > > it. Although she converted to Orthodoxy years ago,
      > > she only developed this
      > > picture in the past couple of years, as the
      > > anti-union sermons grew
      > > ever-more shrill and hysterical. (I heard one myself
      > > back in 1997 when I
      > > attended services at the Paris parish. The position
      > > is so far to the right
      > > and is so inflexible and almost unChristian in
      > > character. If Metropilitan
      > > Philaret of blessed memory was still alive, he would
      > > probably be considered
      > > to be way to the left of centre.) To wit, when my
      > > son's godmother attended
      > > her last service there, she told us that the
      > > horrible spirit of
      > > sectarianism had descended on the parish (duh
      > > sektanstva). Though in
      > > humility, when she approached the priest to bid him
      > > farewell, he turned away.
      > > In Christ,
      > > Hristofor
      > >
      > > At 11:15 AM 8/8/2002, you wrote:
      > > >Dear List,
      > > >
      > > >If, among us, some are still naïve enough to speak
      > > about the MP being
      > > >sorry about sergianism, please find below what
      > > should take care of
      > > >this illusion. I hope that nobody in this list will
      > > ever state again
      > > >that the MP has condemned sergianism (until he
      > > does).
      > > >
      > > >Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail
      > > to hear? And
      > > >don't you remember? (Mark 8:17-19).
      > > >
      > > >In God,
      > > >
      > > >Vladimir Kozyreff
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >The text below is from the MP (reference at the
      > > end)
      > > >
      > > >"A careful analysis of the public statements made
      > > by metropolitan
      > > >Sergius, and of the documents that have become
      > > accessible about his
      > > >negotiations with the representatives of the
      > > authorities shows the
      > > >following. The Deputy to the Patriarchal Vicar, in
      > > his efforts to
      > > >normalise the church life, was anxious to act with
      > > the blessing of
      > > >the Church. He made all possible efforts in
      > > concrete historical
      > > >circumstances to come to an agreement about the
      > > legalisation of the
      > > >Highest Instances of the Church, without betraying
      > > the principles of
      > > >the faith or the canons.
      > > >
      > > >He was extremely cautious in choosing his terms.
      > > During the
      > > >conclusion of this agreement, he behaved as a
      > > confessor, protecting
      > > >the interests of the Church. The normalisation of
      > > the relations with
      > > >the authorities cannot be interpreted as treason of
      > > the Church
      > > >interests.
      > > >
      > > >This normalisation was approved by Saint Patriarch
      > > Tikhon, and also
      > > >found an expression in the so-called "Message from
      > > the Solovki
      > > >bishops ", written in 1926, that is one year prior
      > > to the publication
      > > >of the "Messages of the Assistant to the
      > > Patriarchal Vicar and the
      > > >provisional Patriarchal Synod".
      > > >
      > > >The essence of the changes concerned the position
      > > of the Church,
      > > >which had not recognised the legality of the new
      > > authority that had
      > > >come to power after the revolution of October,
      > > 1917. Subsequently,
      > > >because of the consolidation of this authority, the
      > > Church was
      > > >compelled to recognise it as a State, and to
      > > establish with it mutual
      > > >relations.
      > > >
      > > >This position is not reprehensible; historically
      > > the Church
      > > >repeatedly found herself in a situation where she
      > > was compelled to co-
      > > >operate with non - orthodox authorities (for
      > > example, in the Golden
      > > >Horde period or in the Muslim Ottoman Empire."
      > > >
      > >
      > >http://www.russian-orthodox-church.org.ru/nr207196.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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