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Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials

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  • pcarp88
    Dear Brother Michael, The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your comments regarding the integrity of Father L. … Fr.Alexander. You
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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      Dear Brother Michael,

      The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
      comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
      are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
      heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
      faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
      they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
      you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?

      If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve in
      our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours to
      attend services.

      Nicolai from NY


      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
      > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
      insinuations
      > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
      >
      > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark
      of
      > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
      >
      > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
      regularly to
      > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity
      to
      > slander our Saints.
      >
      > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
      spiritual
      > advice to his faithful.
      >
      > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
      immersion and not
      > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
      > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
      > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism
      has
      > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
      >
      > Michael N.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
      > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
      > To: orthodox-synod@y...
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
      > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
      >
      > >
      > > Blessed is our God!
      > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
      considerd
      > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
      Orthodox than
      > >the Church!
      > >En Xto,
      > >+Emanuel
      >
      > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
      >
      > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's
      travelto
      > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
      be a
      > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
      >
      > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
      prayer,
      > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
      participating
      > (or even being present).
      >
      > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St.
      Mark
      > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
      > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
      betrayal
      > of Orthodoxy.
      >
      > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that
      he
      > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
      who
      > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
      to be a
      > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > With love in Christ,
      >
      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
      > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
    • vkozyreff
      Dear List, I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see any in Michael
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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        Dear List,

        I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
        disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see
        any in Michael Nikitin's post.

        Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
        would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
        dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").

        One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
        position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
        ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
        days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
        makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a court
        accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
        fringe?

        Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's contribution
        looks important and positive, in this particular case.

        As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
        too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
        councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian of
        piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
        themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
        Roman Pope in 1848.)

        I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff

        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
        > Dear Brother Michael,
        >
        > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
        > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
        > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
        > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
        > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
        > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
        > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
        >
        > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve
        in
        > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
        to
        > attend services.
        >
        > Nicolai from NY
        >
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
        > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
        > insinuations
        > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
        > >
        > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
        Mark
        > of
        > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
        > >
        > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
        > regularly to
        > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
        audacity
        > to
        > > slander our Saints.
        > >
        > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
        > spiritual
        > > advice to his faithful.
        > >
        > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
        > immersion and not
        > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
        being
        > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
        > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
        baptism
        > has
        > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
        > >
        > > Michael N.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
        > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
        > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
        > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
        > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Blessed is our God!
        > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
        > considerd
        > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
        > Orthodox than
        > > >the Church!
        > > >En Xto,
        > > >+Emanuel
        > >
        > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
        > >
        > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
        Mark's
        > travelto
        > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
        > be a
        > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
        > >
        > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
        > prayer,
        > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
        > participating
        > > (or even being present).
        > >
        > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
        St.
        > Mark
        > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
        > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
        > betrayal
        > > of Orthodoxy.
        > >
        > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
        that
        > he
        > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
        > who
        > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
        > to be a
        > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > With love in Christ,
        > >
        > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        > >
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
        > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
      • pcarp88
        Vladimir, I object your Honor! I don t agree with the tone of some forum members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just* in condemning
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 9, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Vladimir,
          I object your Honor! I don't agree with the tone of some forum
          members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just*
          in condemning other members who may *appear* to fault short of
          following the canons of the church in their dialogue. Father L. may
          be guilty of the same.

          My point is ..."The words from the lips of a wise man are gracious"
          (Eccl. 10:2)


          Nicolai from NY



          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
          wrote:
          > Dear List,
          >
          > I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
          > disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not
          see
          > any in Michael Nikitin's post.
          >
          > Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
          > would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
          > dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").
          >
          > One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
          > position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
          > ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
          > days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
          > makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a
          court
          > accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
          > fringe?
          >
          > Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's
          contribution
          > looks important and positive, in this particular case.
          >
          > As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
          > too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
          > councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian
          of
          > piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
          > themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
          > Roman Pope in 1848.)
          >
          > I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.
          >
          > In God,
          >
          > Vladimir Kozyreff
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
          > > Dear Brother Michael,
          > >
          > > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and
          your
          > > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander.
          You
          > > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
          > > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
          > > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
          > > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who
          told
          > > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
          > >
          > > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to
          serve
          > in
          > > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
          > to
          > > attend services.
          > >
          > > Nicolai from NY
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...>
          wrote:
          > > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
          > > insinuations
          > > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
          > > >
          > > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
          > Mark
          > > of
          > > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
          > > >
          > > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
          > > regularly to
          > > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
          > audacity
          > > to
          > > > slander our Saints.
          > > >
          > > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
          > > spiritual
          > > > advice to his faithful.
          > > >
          > > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
          > > immersion and not
          > > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
          > being
          > > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart
          grace.
          > > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
          > baptism
          > > has
          > > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
          > > >
          > > > Michael N.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
          > > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
          > > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
          > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
          > > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Blessed is our God!
          > > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
          > > considerd
          > > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
          > > Orthodox than
          > > > >the Church!
          > > > >En Xto,
          > > > >+Emanuel
          > > >
          > > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
          > > >
          > > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
          > Mark's
          > > travelto
          > > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics
          to
          > > be a
          > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
          > > >
          > > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a
          joint
          > > prayer,
          > > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
          > > participating
          > > > (or even being present).
          > > >
          > > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
          > St.
          > > Mark
          > > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
          > > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be
          a
          > > betrayal
          > > > of Orthodoxy.
          > > >
          > > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
          > that
          > > he
          > > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman
          Catholics
          > > who
          > > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not
          Baptism)
          > > to be a
          > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > With love in Christ,
          > > >
          > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
          > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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