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Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka

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  • elisabeth shohov
    Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
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      "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died
      as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?

      Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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    • Fr. Gregory Williams
      Elisabeth queried... If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920 s and 1930 s, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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        Elisabeth queried...

        If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's,
        suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that
        the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a
        member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth

        I don't believe I said anything relating to "his suffering in the eyes of
        God", about which I know nothing. What I did say is that he _continued_ as
        a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
        bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
        our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Elisabeth, dear List, The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities, with the fallacious hope to save one s life and the Church. In
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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          Dear Elisabeth, dear List,

          The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities,
          with the fallacious hope to save one's life and the Church. In fact
          it did not save anything, and many sergianist bishops were killed by
          the Bolsheviks anyhow.

          Sergianism is anathema. We have no indication that a person who
          accepted and practised sergianism is a saint, if we have no
          indication that that person renounced sergianism and was then
          forgiven by God.

          Maybe it happened (see the good brigand), that is why we should not
          condemn people. Any apparent sinner may have already been forgiven by
          God when we think of him. We condemn sins only. In this particular
          case, we do not know. So there is no reason to believe that that
          person is a saint. It can be, but we do not know.

          Suffering has no meaning without God. Metropolitan Sergius did suffer
          a lot. This does not make him a saint.

          Many Bolshevik leaders suffered a lot when the revolution ate its
          children. Maybe there were Christian martyrs in the same Gulag. The
          bolsheviks that suffered there are probably no saints, though.

          Judas too suffered a lot. This does not make him a saint.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff


          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., elisabeth shohov <mitrophan@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been
          included. After all, he lived and died
          > as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
          >
          > Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in
          the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent
          off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was
          there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his
          suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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        • Hristofor
          If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he was
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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            If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably
            suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he
            was released, I believe, due to the shortage of doctors needed for the war
            effort. In fact, he asked for a temporary release, and wanted to be
            returned to jail after the war was completed, in order to finish his
            sentence. It is a stretch to judge him and say that the reason he asked for
            a temporary release was to get out of jail and save himself by going to the
            front! He could have been killed during the war or have been shot upon
            return, as many soldiers and officers were, for real or imagined
            collaboration with the nazis or some other trumped up reason. This is the
            reason I asked, since he appears to have been a confessor up until WW II
            and then after the war, his life took a different course as he once again
            began to serve as a priest.

            I imagine that there are other less well-known cases of confessor-priests
            who survived the camps and (internal) exile of the 20's, 30's and 40's and
            who in no way could be accused of collaboration or Sergianism. It would be
            interesting to find out the fate of those priests: if they joined the
            catacombs, MP, or attempted to serve on their own.

            Hristofor
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            ... This is simply not correct. The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 7, 2002
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              Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


              >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
              >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
              >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
              >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


              This is simply not correct.

              The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
              Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
              were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

              Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
              explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
              save Thy people. . ."

              Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
              chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
              demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
              Tenens.

              And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
              not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
              Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
              (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

              Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
              names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

              It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
              Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
              standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

              Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
              Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
              Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
              after his Declaration?

              I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
              there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
              on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
              official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

              >

              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
            • Joachim Wertz
              I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon. Joachim Wertz ... From: Fr. Alexander Lebedeff To:
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon.

                Joachim Wertz

                ----------
                From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM


                Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


                >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
                >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
                >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


                This is simply not correct.

                The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

                Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
                explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
                save Thy people. . ."

                Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
                chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
                demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
                Tenens.

                And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
                not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
                Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

                Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
                names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

                It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
                Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
                standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

                Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
                Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
                Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
                after his Declaration?

                I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
                there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
                on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
                official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

                >

                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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              • Fr. Gregory Williams
                Fr. Alexander commented -- The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                  Fr. Alexander commented --

                  The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                  Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                  were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.


                  True enough. But that's _very_ different from the situation of Abp. Luka,
                  who was a member of the synod of the MP until his death in 1961, having
                  served (even though almost certainly often with much discomfort) not only
                  his flock, but the apparatus of the Soviet Church from the time of its
                  emergence.

                  The clouds and confusion of the 20s and even 30s had little common ground
                  with the horrors of a "Church" which after the "election" of "Patriarch"
                  Alexis had become above all the tool of the Soviet government and more
                  specifically the KGB.
                • Joseph Digrande
                  Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support the anathema against those who would not commemorate Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                    Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support
                    the anathema against those who would not commemorate
                    Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                    declaration? And has that anathema against the
                    catacomb church been lifted by the MP in the 90's?
                    I thought that just before Met. Peter's death, he took
                    a much harder line on Sergius, but I might be wrong.
                    Joseph Digrande
                    --- Joachim Wertz <wertz@...> wrote:
                    > I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted
                    > on the Icon.
                    >
                    > Joachim Wertz
                    >
                    > ----------
                    > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                    > <lebedeff@...>
                    > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                    > Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM
                    >
                    >
                    > Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                    > >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his
                    > suffering, and died as a
                    > >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he
                    > be numbered, at least by
                    > >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
                    >
                    >
                    > This is simply not correct.
                    >
                    > The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the
                    > official Icon of the New
                    > Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains
                    > a number of Bishops who
                    > were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.
                    >
                    > Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel,
                    > are commemorated
                    > explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the
                    > long prayer, "O God,
                    > save Thy people. . ."
                    >
                    > Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his
                    > reservations about the path
                    > chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke
                    > communion with him, or
                    > demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his
                    > position as Deputy Locum
                    > Tenens.
                    >
                    > And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to
                    > Metropolitan Sergius, written
                    > not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in
                    > which Metropolitan
                    > Agathangel states that he fully recognizes
                    > Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                    > (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of
                    > historicl record.
                    >
                    > Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky)
                    > of Novgorod, have their
                    > names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.
                    >
                    > It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was
                    > actually a **member** of
                    > Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and
                    > was a bishop in good
                    > standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to
                    > the day he reposed.
                    >
                    > Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of
                    > Metropolitans Peter,
                    > Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images
                    > from the Icon of the New
                    > Martyrs because they did not break communion with
                    > Metropolitans Sergius
                    > after his Declaration?
                    >
                    > I have not had time to research this more fully, but
                    > I am convinced that
                    > there are many more bishops and priests, other than
                    > the ones I mentioned,
                    > on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia,
                    > or depicted on the
                    > official Icon, that also never broke with
                    > Metropolitan Sergius.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > With love in Christ,
                    >
                    > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    > Terms of Service
                    > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • sergerust2002
                    ... I think I got the answer : «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such fantastic
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 14, 2002
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                      > Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world
                      > as Dr Valentin Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included
                      > in the cannonization of the New Russian Martyrs
                      > by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).
                      > Thanks. Hristofor (post 6097)


                      I think I got the answer :

                      «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most
                      abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such
                      fantastic "startsi" as Matrionushka, Feodossia. MP canonized
                      them, wrote their icons, published writings about how
                      Matriona prayed for Stalin - the big mix. I happened to see
                      a book on her, a painful reading. Among us, unofficially,
                      this is called "soviet theology". Besides,MP canonized
                      LUKA VOINO-IASENETSKII, but he was simply an heretic,
                      a pantheist. He attempted to to demonstrate the spiritual
                      life through the experience of the witches. He was a good
                      surgeon, but no orthodox theologian. And what they've done
                      in Diveyevo! What speculation all around! The prices of the
                      neighboring barracks went up, as people, leaving their family,
                      go and live there. Typically sectarian. And though, the MP
                      clergy maintain this insane manifestation»
                      (Bishop Evtykhy, December 22, 1999).



                      Serge Rust
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