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Archbishop Luka

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  • Fr. Gregory Williams
    I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
      I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died
      as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
    • byakimov@csc.com.au
      Dear Hristofor, He was never a new Martyr & even the MP is divided about his canonisation. Some say he was just a good medical physician & a reasonably good
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
        Dear Hristofor,

        He was never a new Martyr & even the MP is divided about his canonisation.
        Some say
        he was just a good medical physician & a reasonably good Bishop but
        nonetheless was loyal
        to the Soviets. The MP did not canonise him as a new martyr.

        unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberraa






        Hristofor <hristofor@...> on 05/08/2002 10:20:05 PM

        Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        cc:
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka


        Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world as Dr Valentin
        Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included in the cannonization of the New
        Russian Martyrs by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).

        Thanks.
        Hristofor



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      • elisabeth shohov
        Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
          "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died
          as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?

          Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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        • Fr. Gregory Williams
          Elisabeth queried... If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920 s and 1930 s, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
            Elisabeth queried...

            If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's,
            suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that
            the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a
            member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth

            I don't believe I said anything relating to "his suffering in the eyes of
            God", about which I know nothing. What I did say is that he _continued_ as
            a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
            bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
            our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
          • vkozyreff
            Dear Elisabeth, dear List, The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities, with the fallacious hope to save one s life and the Church. In
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
              Dear Elisabeth, dear List,

              The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities,
              with the fallacious hope to save one's life and the Church. In fact
              it did not save anything, and many sergianist bishops were killed by
              the Bolsheviks anyhow.

              Sergianism is anathema. We have no indication that a person who
              accepted and practised sergianism is a saint, if we have no
              indication that that person renounced sergianism and was then
              forgiven by God.

              Maybe it happened (see the good brigand), that is why we should not
              condemn people. Any apparent sinner may have already been forgiven by
              God when we think of him. We condemn sins only. In this particular
              case, we do not know. So there is no reason to believe that that
              person is a saint. It can be, but we do not know.

              Suffering has no meaning without God. Metropolitan Sergius did suffer
              a lot. This does not make him a saint.

              Many Bolshevik leaders suffered a lot when the revolution ate its
              children. Maybe there were Christian martyrs in the same Gulag. The
              bolsheviks that suffered there are probably no saints, though.

              Judas too suffered a lot. This does not make him a saint.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff


              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., elisabeth shohov <mitrophan@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been
              included. After all, he lived and died
              > as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
              >
              > Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in
              the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent
              off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was
              there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his
              suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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            • Hristofor
              If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he was
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
                If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably
                suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he
                was released, I believe, due to the shortage of doctors needed for the war
                effort. In fact, he asked for a temporary release, and wanted to be
                returned to jail after the war was completed, in order to finish his
                sentence. It is a stretch to judge him and say that the reason he asked for
                a temporary release was to get out of jail and save himself by going to the
                front! He could have been killed during the war or have been shot upon
                return, as many soldiers and officers were, for real or imagined
                collaboration with the nazis or some other trumped up reason. This is the
                reason I asked, since he appears to have been a confessor up until WW II
                and then after the war, his life took a different course as he once again
                began to serve as a priest.

                I imagine that there are other less well-known cases of confessor-priests
                who survived the camps and (internal) exile of the 20's, 30's and 40's and
                who in no way could be accused of collaboration or Sergianism. It would be
                interesting to find out the fate of those priests: if they joined the
                catacombs, MP, or attempted to serve on their own.

                Hristofor
              • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                ... This is simply not correct. The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 7, 2002
                  Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


                  >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                  >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
                  >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
                  >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


                  This is simply not correct.

                  The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                  Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                  were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

                  Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
                  explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
                  save Thy people. . ."

                  Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
                  chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
                  demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
                  Tenens.

                  And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
                  not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
                  Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                  (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

                  Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
                  names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

                  It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
                  Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
                  standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

                  Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
                  Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
                  Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
                  after his Declaration?

                  I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
                  there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
                  on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
                  official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

                  >

                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                • Joachim Wertz
                  I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon. Joachim Wertz ... From: Fr. Alexander Lebedeff To:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
                    I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon.

                    Joachim Wertz

                    ----------
                    From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                    Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM


                    Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


                    >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                    >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
                    >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
                    >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


                    This is simply not correct.

                    The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                    Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                    were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

                    Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
                    explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
                    save Thy people. . ."

                    Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
                    chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
                    demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
                    Tenens.

                    And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
                    not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
                    Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                    (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

                    Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
                    names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

                    It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
                    Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
                    standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

                    Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
                    Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
                    Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
                    after his Declaration?

                    I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
                    there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
                    on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
                    official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

                    >

                    With love in Christ,

                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                  • Fr. Gregory Williams
                    Fr. Alexander commented -- The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
                      Fr. Alexander commented --

                      The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                      Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                      were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.


                      True enough. But that's _very_ different from the situation of Abp. Luka,
                      who was a member of the synod of the MP until his death in 1961, having
                      served (even though almost certainly often with much discomfort) not only
                      his flock, but the apparatus of the Soviet Church from the time of its
                      emergence.

                      The clouds and confusion of the 20s and even 30s had little common ground
                      with the horrors of a "Church" which after the "election" of "Patriarch"
                      Alexis had become above all the tool of the Soviet government and more
                      specifically the KGB.
                    • Joseph Digrande
                      Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support the anathema against those who would not commemorate Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
                        Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support
                        the anathema against those who would not commemorate
                        Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                        declaration? And has that anathema against the
                        catacomb church been lifted by the MP in the 90's?
                        I thought that just before Met. Peter's death, he took
                        a much harder line on Sergius, but I might be wrong.
                        Joseph Digrande
                        --- Joachim Wertz <wertz@...> wrote:
                        > I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted
                        > on the Icon.
                        >
                        > Joachim Wertz
                        >
                        > ----------
                        > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                        > <lebedeff@...>
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                        > Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM
                        >
                        >
                        > Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                        > >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his
                        > suffering, and died as a
                        > >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he
                        > be numbered, at least by
                        > >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
                        >
                        >
                        > This is simply not correct.
                        >
                        > The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the
                        > official Icon of the New
                        > Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains
                        > a number of Bishops who
                        > were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.
                        >
                        > Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel,
                        > are commemorated
                        > explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the
                        > long prayer, "O God,
                        > save Thy people. . ."
                        >
                        > Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his
                        > reservations about the path
                        > chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke
                        > communion with him, or
                        > demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his
                        > position as Deputy Locum
                        > Tenens.
                        >
                        > And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to
                        > Metropolitan Sergius, written
                        > not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in
                        > which Metropolitan
                        > Agathangel states that he fully recognizes
                        > Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                        > (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of
                        > historicl record.
                        >
                        > Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky)
                        > of Novgorod, have their
                        > names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.
                        >
                        > It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was
                        > actually a **member** of
                        > Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and
                        > was a bishop in good
                        > standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to
                        > the day he reposed.
                        >
                        > Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of
                        > Metropolitans Peter,
                        > Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images
                        > from the Icon of the New
                        > Martyrs because they did not break communion with
                        > Metropolitans Sergius
                        > after his Declaration?
                        >
                        > I have not had time to research this more fully, but
                        > I am convinced that
                        > there are many more bishops and priests, other than
                        > the ones I mentioned,
                        > on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia,
                        > or depicted on the
                        > official Icon, that also never broke with
                        > Metropolitan Sergius.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > With love in Christ,
                        >
                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                        >
                        >
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                        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • sergerust2002
                        ... I think I got the answer : «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such fantastic
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 14, 2002
                          > Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world
                          > as Dr Valentin Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included
                          > in the cannonization of the New Russian Martyrs
                          > by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).
                          > Thanks. Hristofor (post 6097)


                          I think I got the answer :

                          «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most
                          abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such
                          fantastic "startsi" as Matrionushka, Feodossia. MP canonized
                          them, wrote their icons, published writings about how
                          Matriona prayed for Stalin - the big mix. I happened to see
                          a book on her, a painful reading. Among us, unofficially,
                          this is called "soviet theology". Besides,MP canonized
                          LUKA VOINO-IASENETSKII, but he was simply an heretic,
                          a pantheist. He attempted to to demonstrate the spiritual
                          life through the experience of the witches. He was a good
                          surgeon, but no orthodox theologian. And what they've done
                          in Diveyevo! What speculation all around! The prices of the
                          neighboring barracks went up, as people, leaving their family,
                          go and live there. Typically sectarian. And though, the MP
                          clergy maintain this insane manifestation»
                          (Bishop Evtykhy, December 22, 1999).



                          Serge Rust
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