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Archbishop Luka

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  • Hristofor
    Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world as Dr Valentin Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included in the cannonization of the New Russian
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
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      Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world as Dr Valentin
      Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included in the cannonization of the New
      Russian Martyrs by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).

      Thanks.
      Hristofor
    • Fr. Gregory Williams
      I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
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        I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died
        as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
      • byakimov@csc.com.au
        Dear Hristofor, He was never a new Martyr & even the MP is divided about his canonisation. Some say he was just a good medical physician & a reasonably good
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
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          Dear Hristofor,

          He was never a new Martyr & even the MP is divided about his canonisation.
          Some say
          he was just a good medical physician & a reasonably good Bishop but
          nonetheless was loyal
          to the Soviets. The MP did not canonise him as a new martyr.

          unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberraa






          Hristofor <hristofor@...> on 05/08/2002 10:20:05 PM

          Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          cc:
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka


          Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world as Dr Valentin
          Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included in the cannonization of the New
          Russian Martyrs by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).

          Thanks.
          Hristofor



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        • elisabeth shohov
          Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 5, 2002
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            "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been included. After all, he lived and died
            as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?

            Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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          • Fr. Gregory Williams
            Elisabeth queried... If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920 s and 1930 s, suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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              Elisabeth queried...

              If a person was an ardent member of the MP in the 1920's and 1930's,
              suffered in concentration camps and was sent off to Solovki at the time that
              the new martyr bishop Hilarion was there,- does the fact that he was a
              member of the MP negate his suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth

              I don't believe I said anything relating to "his suffering in the eyes of
              God", about which I know nothing. What I did say is that he _continued_ as
              a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
              bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
              our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
            • vkozyreff
              Dear Elisabeth, dear List, The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities, with the fallacious hope to save one s life and the Church. In
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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                Dear Elisabeth, dear List,

                The principle or Sergianism was to collaborate with the authorities,
                with the fallacious hope to save one's life and the Church. In fact
                it did not save anything, and many sergianist bishops were killed by
                the Bolsheviks anyhow.

                Sergianism is anathema. We have no indication that a person who
                accepted and practised sergianism is a saint, if we have no
                indication that that person renounced sergianism and was then
                forgiven by God.

                Maybe it happened (see the good brigand), that is why we should not
                condemn people. Any apparent sinner may have already been forgiven by
                God when we think of him. We condemn sins only. In this particular
                case, we do not know. So there is no reason to believe that that
                person is a saint. It can be, but we do not know.

                Suffering has no meaning without God. Metropolitan Sergius did suffer
                a lot. This does not make him a saint.

                Many Bolshevik leaders suffered a lot when the revolution ate its
                children. Maybe there were Christian martyrs in the same Gulag. The
                bolsheviks that suffered there are probably no saints, though.

                Judas too suffered a lot. This does not make him a saint.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff


                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., elisabeth shohov <mitrophan@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > "Fr. Gregory Williams" wrote:I would be dumbfounded had he been
                included. After all, he lived and died
                > as an ardent member of the synod of the Moscow Patriarchate!?!?!?
                >
                > Dear Father Gregory- If a person was an ardent member of the MP in
                the 1920's and 1930's, suffered in concentration camps and was sent
                off to Solovki at the time that the new martyr bishop Hilarion was
                there,- does the fact that he was a member of the MP negate his
                suffering in the eyes of God? - Elisabeth
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              • Hristofor
                If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he was
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 6, 2002
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                  If memory serves me correctly, Archbishop Luka was imprisoned (and probably
                  suffered at the same time) before WW II. It was only during the war that he
                  was released, I believe, due to the shortage of doctors needed for the war
                  effort. In fact, he asked for a temporary release, and wanted to be
                  returned to jail after the war was completed, in order to finish his
                  sentence. It is a stretch to judge him and say that the reason he asked for
                  a temporary release was to get out of jail and save himself by going to the
                  front! He could have been killed during the war or have been shot upon
                  return, as many soldiers and officers were, for real or imagined
                  collaboration with the nazis or some other trumped up reason. This is the
                  reason I asked, since he appears to have been a confessor up until WW II
                  and then after the war, his life took a different course as he once again
                  began to serve as a priest.

                  I imagine that there are other less well-known cases of confessor-priests
                  who survived the camps and (internal) exile of the 20's, 30's and 40's and
                  who in no way could be accused of collaboration or Sergianism. It would be
                  interesting to find out the fate of those priests: if they joined the
                  catacombs, MP, or attempted to serve on their own.

                  Hristofor
                • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                  ... This is simply not correct. The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 7, 2002
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                    Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


                    >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                    >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
                    >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
                    >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


                    This is simply not correct.

                    The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                    Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                    were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

                    Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
                    explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
                    save Thy people. . ."

                    Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
                    chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
                    demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
                    Tenens.

                    And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
                    not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
                    Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                    (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

                    Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
                    names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

                    It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
                    Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
                    standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

                    Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
                    Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
                    Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
                    after his Declaration?

                    I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
                    there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
                    on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
                    official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

                    >

                    With love in Christ,

                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                  • Joachim Wertz
                    I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon. Joachim Wertz ... From: Fr. Alexander Lebedeff To:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                      I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted on the Icon.

                      Joachim Wertz

                      ----------
                      From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                      Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM


                      Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:


                      >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                      >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his suffering, and died as a
                      >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he be numbered, at least by
                      >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.


                      This is simply not correct.

                      The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                      Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                      were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.

                      Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel, are commemorated
                      explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the long prayer, "O God,
                      save Thy people. . ."

                      Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his reservations about the path
                      chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke communion with him, or
                      demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his position as Deputy Locum
                      Tenens.

                      And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to Metropolitan Sergius, written
                      not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in which Metropolitan
                      Agathangel states that he fully recognizes Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                      (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of historicl record.

                      Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky) of Novgorod, have their
                      names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.

                      It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was actually a **member** of
                      Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and was a bishop in good
                      standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to the day he reposed.

                      Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of Metropolitans Peter,
                      Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images from the Icon of the New
                      Martyrs because they did not break communion with Metropolitans Sergius
                      after his Declaration?

                      I have not had time to research this more fully, but I am convinced that
                      there are many more bishops and priests, other than the ones I mentioned,
                      on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, or depicted on the
                      official Icon, that also never broke with Metropolitan Sergius.

                      >

                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                    • Fr. Gregory Williams
                      Fr. Alexander commented -- The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                        Fr. Alexander commented --

                        The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the official Icon of the New
                        Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains a number of Bishops who
                        were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.


                        True enough. But that's _very_ different from the situation of Abp. Luka,
                        who was a member of the synod of the MP until his death in 1961, having
                        served (even though almost certainly often with much discomfort) not only
                        his flock, but the apparatus of the Soviet Church from the time of its
                        emergence.

                        The clouds and confusion of the 20s and even 30s had little common ground
                        with the horrors of a "Church" which after the "election" of "Patriarch"
                        Alexis had become above all the tool of the Soviet government and more
                        specifically the KGB.
                      • Joseph Digrande
                        Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support the anathema against those who would not commemorate Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 8, 2002
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                          Did all the clerics listed by Ft. Alexander support
                          the anathema against those who would not commemorate
                          Sergius (issued by Sergius) some years after the
                          declaration? And has that anathema against the
                          catacomb church been lifted by the MP in the 90's?
                          I thought that just before Met. Peter's death, he took
                          a much harder line on Sergius, but I might be wrong.
                          Joseph Digrande
                          --- Joachim Wertz <wertz@...> wrote:
                          > I believe that even Fr. Pavel Florensky is depicted
                          > on the Icon.
                          >
                          > Joachim Wertz
                          >
                          > ----------
                          > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
                          > <lebedeff@...>
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Archbishop Luka
                          > Date: Wed, Aug 7, 2002, 12:17 PM
                          >
                          >
                          > Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > >What I did say is that he _continued_ as
                          > >a loyal (and more) hierarch of the MP _after_ his
                          > suffering, and died as a
                          > >bishop in its ranks. As such, in no sense can he
                          > be numbered, at least by
                          > >our Church, amongst the New Martyrs and Confessors.
                          >
                          >
                          > This is simply not correct.
                          >
                          > The list of New Martyrs and Confessors and the
                          > official Icon of the New
                          > Martyrs and Confessors of Russia certainly contains
                          > a number of Bishops who
                          > were in full communion with Metropolitan Sergius.
                          >
                          > Some, such as Metropolitans Peter and Agathangel,
                          > are commemorated
                          > explicitly at virtually every Matins service in the
                          > long prayer, "O God,
                          > save Thy people. . ."
                          >
                          > Although Metropolitan Peter expressed his
                          > reservations about the path
                          > chosen by Metropolitan Sergius, he never broke
                          > communion with him, or
                          > demanded that Metropolitan Sergius relinquish his
                          > position as Deputy Locum
                          > Tenens.
                          >
                          > And the letter of Metropolitan Agathangel to
                          > Metropolitan Sergius, written
                          > not long before Metropolitan Agathangel's repose in
                          > which Metropolitan
                          > Agathangel states that he fully recognizes
                          > Metropolitan Sergius's authority
                          > (this is long after the Declaration) is a matter of
                          > historicl record.
                          >
                          > Others, such as Metropolitan Arsenius (Stadnitsky)
                          > of Novgorod, have their
                          > names prominent on the Icon of the New Martyrs.
                          >
                          > It should be noted that Metropolitan Arsenius was
                          > actually a **member** of
                          > Metropolitan Sergius's post-Declaration Synod, and
                          > was a bishop in good
                          > standing in Metropolitan Sergius's administration to
                          > the day he reposed.
                          >
                          > Does anyone support ceasing commemorations of
                          > Metropolitans Peter,
                          > Agathangel, or Arsenius or removing their images
                          > from the Icon of the New
                          > Martyrs because they did not break communion with
                          > Metropolitans Sergius
                          > after his Declaration?
                          >
                          > I have not had time to research this more fully, but
                          > I am convinced that
                          > there are many more bishops and priests, other than
                          > the ones I mentioned,
                          > on the list of New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia,
                          > or depicted on the
                          > official Icon, that also never broke with
                          > Metropolitan Sergius.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > With love in Christ,
                          >
                          > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • sergerust2002
                          ... I think I got the answer : «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such fantastic
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 14, 2002
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                            > Does anyone know if Archbishop Luka (known to the world
                            > as Dr Valentin Feliksovich Voino-Iasenetskii) was included
                            > in the cannonization of the New Russian Martyrs
                            > by the ROCA in 1981? (The MP cannonized him in 2000).
                            > Thanks. Hristofor (post 6097)


                            I think I got the answer :

                            «It is worth noting, in relation to the literature most
                            abundantly published by the MP, that they canonized such
                            fantastic "startsi" as Matrionushka, Feodossia. MP canonized
                            them, wrote their icons, published writings about how
                            Matriona prayed for Stalin - the big mix. I happened to see
                            a book on her, a painful reading. Among us, unofficially,
                            this is called "soviet theology". Besides,MP canonized
                            LUKA VOINO-IASENETSKII, but he was simply an heretic,
                            a pantheist. He attempted to to demonstrate the spiritual
                            life through the experience of the witches. He was a good
                            surgeon, but no orthodox theologian. And what they've done
                            in Diveyevo! What speculation all around! The prices of the
                            neighboring barracks went up, as people, leaving their family,
                            go and live there. Typically sectarian. And though, the MP
                            clergy maintain this insane manifestation»
                            (Bishop Evtykhy, December 22, 1999).



                            Serge Rust
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