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Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials

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  • arescan@canada.com
    Blessed is our God! Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
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      Blessed is our God!
      Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than the Church!
      En Xto,
      +Emanuel
      "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him heretical?

      In IC XC,
      Alban
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: sergerust2002
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials


      Dear List,

      Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has�

      a distinction appears between the orthodox �Serbians�, and the
      �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian Patriarch
      addresses the Pope :

      � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
      Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
      prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
      by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
      confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
      religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
      day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...�




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • vkozyreff
      Dear Alban, Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ talked even to the Devil. What is wrong is an orthodox metropolitan advising a
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 3, 2002
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        Dear Alban,

        Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ
        talked even to the Devil.

        What is wrong is an "orthodox" metropolitan advising a heretic
        leader that he is going to have communion with him, with Buddhists
        and Moslems. This is indulging in ecumenism. Ecumenism has been
        anathematised by our Church. Ignoring this anathema is excluding
        onself automatically from our Church.

        In spite of this, we are told in our Church that there is nothing
        wrong with it, and that we may continue, with some of our bishops, to
        commune with heretics. We have come to a situation where people that
        consider themselves as orthodox do not even notice those monstrous
        contradictions.

        Those contradictions are incompatible with orthodoxy. Christ has
        commanded us to be consistent. Inconsistency in matters of faith is
        diabolic. "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no';
        anything beyond these is of evil". Matthew 5:37

        Regarding the nature of heresy, many still believe that a heresy is
        necessarily a proposal that has been officially declared as such by a
        Council. Please use the function "search" in this forum, about the
        term "heresy". This topic has been discussed before with this List.

        In God,

        Vladimir Kozyreff




        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
        > Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an
        evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at
        Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.
        >
        > In IC XC,
        > Alban
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: vkozyreff
        > To: orthodox-synod@y...
        > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials
        >
        >
        > Dear Joachim,
        >
        > What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • vkozyreff
        Dear List, Not the manner, but the substance. The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and is part of the World Council of Churches –
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 4, 2002
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          Dear List,

          Not the manner, but the substance.

          The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and
          is part of the World Council of Churches – the main organisation of
          the ecumenist heresy. As such, she falls under the 1983 anathema of
          the ROCOR, which reads:

          "To those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's
          Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine
          and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will
          be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or
          denominations, and even religions will be united into one body;

          and who do not distinguish the Priesthood and Mysteries of the Church
          from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of
          heretics is effectual for salvation;

          therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these
          aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their
          heresy of ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the
          supposed unification of separated Christians,

          Anathema!" (" Orthodox Russia " ¹ 10, 1984, page 3).

          This anathema concerns also those who have the appearance of being
          orthodox and participate in a dialogue and joint prayers with active
          or passive followers of the ecumenist movement, that is heretics that
          are outside of Church.

          In Christ,

          Vladimir Kozyreff

          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
          > His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome
          exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the
          old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th
          century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
          Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make
          him heretical?
          >
          > In IC XC,
          > Alban
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: sergerust2002
          > To: orthodox-synod@y...
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
          >
          >
          > Dear List,
          >
          > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
          >
          > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
          > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
          > addresses the Pope :
          >
          > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
          > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
          common
          > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
          attended
          > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
          > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
          big
          > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
          > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vkozyreff
          Dear List, The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and the Emperor.
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 5, 2002
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            Dear List,

            The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was
            the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and
            the Emperor. He was fundamentally orthodox, that is a true orthodox.
            No majority rule here. Orthodox are never the majority. Christ always
            divided men, and the majority had it always wrong.

            If you can find a way that is more orthodox than the way of the
            majority of believers and priests or even the Synod's way, the way
            you have found is the right one.

            An acceptable Moslem should not be a fundamentalist, because the
            teaching of Mohammed contains fundamentally wrong elements that are
            unacceptable and should not be followed. That is why we prefer
            moderate Moslems.

            But no moderate Christians. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither
            hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-17)

            The teaching of Christ being totally right, the only way to be an
            acceptable orthodox is to be totally orthodox, that is fundamentally
            orthodox.

            St. Mark wanted a reunion with the Latino - Catholics, based upon
            unity of faith. He declared that he had come to the Council not to
            sign a capitulation but in order to confirm true and pure doctrine.

            Let us pray that he inspire our hierarchs in their relationship with
            the MP and the Pope of Rome.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff


            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "arescan@c..." <arescan@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Blessed is our God!
            > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
            heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
            than the Church!
            > En Xto,
            > +Emanuel
            > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote: His Holiness, the
            Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox
            hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman
            Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
            St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence,
            addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him
            heretical?
            >
            > In IC XC,
            > Alban
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: sergerust2002
            > To: orthodox-synod@y...
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
            >
            >
            > Dear List,
            >
            > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
            >
            > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
            > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
            > addresses the Pope :
            >
            > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
            > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
            common
            > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
            attended
            > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
            > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
            big
            > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
            > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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          • Kiril Bart
            I would think that even church of Rome of the St. Mark s times would considered modern RC heretical, after all new dogmas that they implemented. Subdeacon
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 6, 2002
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              I would think that even church of Rome of the St.
              Mark's times would considered modern RC heretical,
              after all new dogmas that they implemented.
              Subdeacon Kirill
              --- "arescan@..." <arescan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Blessed is our God!
              > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus
              > would be considerd heretical as measured by the
              > standards of those who are more Orthodox than the
              > Church!
              > En Xto,
              > +Emanuel
              > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His
              > Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope
              > of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address
              > the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of
              > the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
              > St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
              > Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner.
              > Does that make him heretical?
              >
              > In IC XC,
              > Alban
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: sergerust2002
              > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
              > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian
              > officials
              >
              >
              > Dear List,
              >
              > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and
              > never has�
              >
              > a distinction appears between the orthodox
              > �Serbians�, and the
              > �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian
              > Patriarch
              > addresses the Pope :
              >
              > � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation
              > to come to
              > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address
              > our Lord in a common
              > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer
              > will be attended
              > by representatives from the Roman Church and from
              > other European
              > confessions, as well as by representatives from
              > Islam and other big
              > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness,
              > that during this
              > day, given by God, we will be in communion of
              > prayer with You ...�
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              >
              > Archives located at
              > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > Archives located at
              > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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            • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
              ... Actually, this is absolutely correct. First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark s travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 7, 2002
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                >
                > Blessed is our God!
                >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                >the Church!
                >En Xto,
                >+Emanuel

                Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travel
                to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                (or even being present).

                Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                of Orthodoxy.

                And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
              • Michael Nikitin
                Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one. If Fr.Alexander read the History he
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                  Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations
                  Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.

                  If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark of
                  Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.

                  I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it regularly to
                  promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity to
                  slander our Saints.

                  How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give spiritual
                  advice to his faithful.

                  At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple immersion and not
                  much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                  Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                  Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism has
                  changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.

                  Michael N.




                  From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                  Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700

                  >
                  > Blessed is our God!
                  >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                  >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                  >the Church!
                  >En Xto,
                  >+Emanuel

                  Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                  First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travelto
                  Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                  betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                  Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                  St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                  (or even being present).

                  Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                  towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                  Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                  of Orthodoxy.

                  And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                  penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                  become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                  betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • sergerust2002
                  ... It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy Canons : - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in prayer with heretics
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                    Here are some comments on father Alexander's :

                    > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider
                    > St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                    > with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                    It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy
                    Canons :
                    - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in
                    prayer with heretics be excommunicated» (45th Apostolic)
                    - «On must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics »
                    (33rd Laodicea)



                    > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened
                    > with a joint prayer, St. Mark must be considered to be
                    > a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating (or even being present).

                    Joint prayer ? The Pope opened the Council (not every session)
                    with «Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!». Some psalms (not
                    prayers) were then sung. Moreover, on their return, the orthodox
                    repented in these terms : «We have sold our faith, we have
                    exchanged Orthodoxy for heterodoxy, and loosing our former pure faith
                    have become azymites. May our hands, which signed the unjust decree
                    be cut off! May our tongues which have spoken consent with the Latins
                    be plucked out!» These were the words of the good but week
                    pastors–
                    Anthony of Heraclea, the oldest members of the Council, and others
                    (Ducas. c.XXXI, p. 120, 121. Ed 1649). These are the words we would
                    expect today - when the apostasy is much bigger - from the Serbian
                    officials and from some of their defenders within ROCOR. Upon their
                    return to Constantinople, "many of the bishops would not
                    officiate together with the new Patriarch [Metrophanes, although he
                    had also repented]; when the Emperor tried to compel them to do so,
                    Mark of Ephesus and Anthony of Heraclea secretly left
                    Constantinople"
                    (The History of the Council of Florence, by Ivan N. Ostroumoff").



                    > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                    > that he penned after the Council, in which he states that
                    > Roman Catholics who become Orthodox must be received
                    > by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                    St Mark wrote: "Avoid brethren such teachers [the Roman
                    Catholics], and all communion with them. They are false apostles,
                    workers of evil transformed into Apostles of Christ ...".



                    Serge Rust
                  • pcarp88
                    Dear Brother Michael, The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your comments regarding the integrity of Father L. … Fr.Alexander. You
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                      Dear Brother Michael,

                      The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                      comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                      are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                      heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                      faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                      they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                      you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?

                      If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve in
                      our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours to
                      attend services.

                      Nicolai from NY


                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                      > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                      insinuations
                      > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                      >
                      > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark
                      of
                      > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                      >
                      > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                      regularly to
                      > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity
                      to
                      > slander our Saints.
                      >
                      > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                      spiritual
                      > advice to his faithful.
                      >
                      > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                      immersion and not
                      > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                      > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                      > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism
                      has
                      > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                      >
                      > Michael N.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                      > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                      > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                      > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Blessed is our God!
                      > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                      considerd
                      > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                      Orthodox than
                      > >the Church!
                      > >En Xto,
                      > >+Emanuel
                      >
                      > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                      >
                      > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's
                      travelto
                      > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                      be a
                      > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                      >
                      > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                      prayer,
                      > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                      participating
                      > (or even being present).
                      >
                      > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St.
                      Mark
                      > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                      > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                      betrayal
                      > of Orthodoxy.
                      >
                      > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that
                      he
                      > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                      who
                      > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                      to be a
                      > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > With love in Christ,
                      >
                      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                      > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear List, I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see any in Michael
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                        Dear List,

                        I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                        disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see
                        any in Michael Nikitin's post.

                        Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                        would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                        dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").

                        One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                        position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                        ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                        days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                        makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a court
                        accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                        fringe?

                        Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's contribution
                        looks important and positive, in this particular case.

                        As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                        too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                        councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian of
                        piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                        themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                        Roman Pope in 1848.)

                        I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear Brother Michael,
                        >
                        > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                        > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                        > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                        > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                        > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                        > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                        > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                        >
                        > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve
                        in
                        > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                        to
                        > attend services.
                        >
                        > Nicolai from NY
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                        > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                        > insinuations
                        > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                        > >
                        > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                        Mark
                        > of
                        > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                        > >
                        > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                        > regularly to
                        > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                        audacity
                        > to
                        > > slander our Saints.
                        > >
                        > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                        > spiritual
                        > > advice to his faithful.
                        > >
                        > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                        > immersion and not
                        > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                        being
                        > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                        > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                        baptism
                        > has
                        > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                        > >
                        > > Michael N.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                        > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                        > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                        > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                        > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Blessed is our God!
                        > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                        > considerd
                        > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                        > Orthodox than
                        > > >the Church!
                        > > >En Xto,
                        > > >+Emanuel
                        > >
                        > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                        > >
                        > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                        Mark's
                        > travelto
                        > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                        > be a
                        > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                        > >
                        > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                        > prayer,
                        > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                        > participating
                        > > (or even being present).
                        > >
                        > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                        St.
                        > Mark
                        > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                        > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                        > betrayal
                        > > of Orthodoxy.
                        > >
                        > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                        that
                        > he
                        > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                        > who
                        > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                        > to be a
                        > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > With love in Christ,
                        > >
                        > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                        > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                      • pcarp88
                        Vladimir, I object your Honor! I don t agree with the tone of some forum members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just* in condemning
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 9, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Vladimir,
                          I object your Honor! I don't agree with the tone of some forum
                          members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just*
                          in condemning other members who may *appear* to fault short of
                          following the canons of the church in their dialogue. Father L. may
                          be guilty of the same.

                          My point is ..."The words from the lips of a wise man are gracious"
                          (Eccl. 10:2)


                          Nicolai from NY



                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > Dear List,
                          >
                          > I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                          > disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not
                          see
                          > any in Michael Nikitin's post.
                          >
                          > Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                          > would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                          > dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").
                          >
                          > One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                          > position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                          > ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                          > days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                          > makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a
                          court
                          > accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                          > fringe?
                          >
                          > Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's
                          contribution
                          > looks important and positive, in this particular case.
                          >
                          > As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                          > too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                          > councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian
                          of
                          > piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                          > themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                          > Roman Pope in 1848.)
                          >
                          > I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.
                          >
                          > In God,
                          >
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                          > > Dear Brother Michael,
                          > >
                          > > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and
                          your
                          > > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander.
                          You
                          > > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                          > > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                          > > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                          > > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who
                          told
                          > > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                          > >
                          > > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to
                          serve
                          > in
                          > > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                          > to
                          > > attend services.
                          > >
                          > > Nicolai from NY
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...>
                          wrote:
                          > > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                          > > insinuations
                          > > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                          > > >
                          > > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                          > Mark
                          > > of
                          > > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                          > > >
                          > > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                          > > regularly to
                          > > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                          > audacity
                          > > to
                          > > > slander our Saints.
                          > > >
                          > > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                          > > spiritual
                          > > > advice to his faithful.
                          > > >
                          > > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                          > > immersion and not
                          > > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                          > being
                          > > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart
                          grace.
                          > > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                          > baptism
                          > > has
                          > > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                          > > >
                          > > > Michael N.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                          > > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                          > > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Blessed is our God!
                          > > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                          > > considerd
                          > > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                          > > Orthodox than
                          > > > >the Church!
                          > > > >En Xto,
                          > > > >+Emanuel
                          > > >
                          > > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                          > > >
                          > > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                          > Mark's
                          > > travelto
                          > > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics
                          to
                          > > be a
                          > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          > > >
                          > > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a
                          joint
                          > > prayer,
                          > > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                          > > participating
                          > > > (or even being present).
                          > > >
                          > > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                          > St.
                          > > Mark
                          > > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                          > > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be
                          a
                          > > betrayal
                          > > > of Orthodoxy.
                          > > >
                          > > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                          > that
                          > > he
                          > > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman
                          Catholics
                          > > who
                          > > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not
                          Baptism)
                          > > to be a
                          > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > With love in Christ,
                          > > >
                          > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          _________________________________________________________________
                          > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                          > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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