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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials

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  • William R. Mosher
    Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
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      Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.

      In IC XC,
      Alban
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: vkozyreff
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials


      Dear Joachim,

      What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • arescan@canada.com
      Blessed is our God! Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
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        Blessed is our God!
        Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than the Church!
        En Xto,
        +Emanuel
        "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him heretical?

        In IC XC,
        Alban
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: sergerust2002
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials


        Dear List,

        Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has�

        a distinction appears between the orthodox �Serbians�, and the
        �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian Patriarch
        addresses the Pope :

        � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
        Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
        prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
        by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
        confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
        religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
        day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...�




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • vkozyreff
        Dear Alban, Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ talked even to the Devil. What is wrong is an orthodox metropolitan advising a
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 3, 2002
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          Dear Alban,

          Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ
          talked even to the Devil.

          What is wrong is an "orthodox" metropolitan advising a heretic
          leader that he is going to have communion with him, with Buddhists
          and Moslems. This is indulging in ecumenism. Ecumenism has been
          anathematised by our Church. Ignoring this anathema is excluding
          onself automatically from our Church.

          In spite of this, we are told in our Church that there is nothing
          wrong with it, and that we may continue, with some of our bishops, to
          commune with heretics. We have come to a situation where people that
          consider themselves as orthodox do not even notice those monstrous
          contradictions.

          Those contradictions are incompatible with orthodoxy. Christ has
          commanded us to be consistent. Inconsistency in matters of faith is
          diabolic. "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no';
          anything beyond these is of evil". Matthew 5:37

          Regarding the nature of heresy, many still believe that a heresy is
          necessarily a proposal that has been officially declared as such by a
          Council. Please use the function "search" in this forum, about the
          term "heresy". This topic has been discussed before with this List.

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff




          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
          > Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an
          evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at
          Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.
          >
          > In IC XC,
          > Alban
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: vkozyreff
          > To: orthodox-synod@y...
          > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials
          >
          >
          > Dear Joachim,
          >
          > What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vkozyreff
          Dear List, Not the manner, but the substance. The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and is part of the World Council of Churches –
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 4, 2002
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            Dear List,

            Not the manner, but the substance.

            The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and
            is part of the World Council of Churches – the main organisation of
            the ecumenist heresy. As such, she falls under the 1983 anathema of
            the ROCOR, which reads:

            "To those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's
            Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine
            and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will
            be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or
            denominations, and even religions will be united into one body;

            and who do not distinguish the Priesthood and Mysteries of the Church
            from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of
            heretics is effectual for salvation;

            therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these
            aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their
            heresy of ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the
            supposed unification of separated Christians,

            Anathema!" (" Orthodox Russia " ¹ 10, 1984, page 3).

            This anathema concerns also those who have the appearance of being
            orthodox and participate in a dialogue and joint prayers with active
            or passive followers of the ecumenist movement, that is heretics that
            are outside of Church.

            In Christ,

            Vladimir Kozyreff

            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
            > His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome
            exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the
            old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th
            century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
            Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make
            him heretical?
            >
            > In IC XC,
            > Alban
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: sergerust2002
            > To: orthodox-synod@y...
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
            >
            >
            > Dear List,
            >
            > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
            >
            > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
            > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
            > addresses the Pope :
            >
            > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
            > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
            common
            > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
            attended
            > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
            > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
            big
            > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
            > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vkozyreff
            Dear List, The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and the Emperor.
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 5, 2002
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              Dear List,

              The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was
              the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and
              the Emperor. He was fundamentally orthodox, that is a true orthodox.
              No majority rule here. Orthodox are never the majority. Christ always
              divided men, and the majority had it always wrong.

              If you can find a way that is more orthodox than the way of the
              majority of believers and priests or even the Synod's way, the way
              you have found is the right one.

              An acceptable Moslem should not be a fundamentalist, because the
              teaching of Mohammed contains fundamentally wrong elements that are
              unacceptable and should not be followed. That is why we prefer
              moderate Moslems.

              But no moderate Christians. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither
              hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-17)

              The teaching of Christ being totally right, the only way to be an
              acceptable orthodox is to be totally orthodox, that is fundamentally
              orthodox.

              St. Mark wanted a reunion with the Latino - Catholics, based upon
              unity of faith. He declared that he had come to the Council not to
              sign a capitulation but in order to confirm true and pure doctrine.

              Let us pray that he inspire our hierarchs in their relationship with
              the MP and the Pope of Rome.

              In God,

              Vladimir Kozyreff


              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "arescan@c..." <arescan@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Blessed is our God!
              > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
              heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
              than the Church!
              > En Xto,
              > +Emanuel
              > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote: His Holiness, the
              Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox
              hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman
              Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
              St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence,
              addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him
              heretical?
              >
              > In IC XC,
              > Alban
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: sergerust2002
              > To: orthodox-synod@y...
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
              > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
              >
              >
              > Dear List,
              >
              > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
              >
              > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
              > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
              > addresses the Pope :
              >
              > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
              > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
              common
              > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
              attended
              > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
              > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
              big
              > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
              > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
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            • Kiril Bart
              I would think that even church of Rome of the St. Mark s times would considered modern RC heretical, after all new dogmas that they implemented. Subdeacon
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 6, 2002
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                I would think that even church of Rome of the St.
                Mark's times would considered modern RC heretical,
                after all new dogmas that they implemented.
                Subdeacon Kirill
                --- "arescan@..." <arescan@...> wrote:
                >
                > Blessed is our God!
                > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus
                > would be considerd heretical as measured by the
                > standards of those who are more Orthodox than the
                > Church!
                > En Xto,
                > +Emanuel
                > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His
                > Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope
                > of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address
                > the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of
                > the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
                > St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
                > Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner.
                > Does that make him heretical?
                >
                > In IC XC,
                > Alban
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: sergerust2002
                > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian
                > officials
                >
                >
                > Dear List,
                >
                > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and
                > never has�
                >
                > a distinction appears between the orthodox
                > �Serbians�, and the
                > �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian
                > Patriarch
                > addresses the Pope :
                >
                > � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation
                > to come to
                > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address
                > our Lord in a common
                > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer
                > will be attended
                > by representatives from the Roman Church and from
                > other European
                > confessions, as well as by representatives from
                > Islam and other big
                > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness,
                > that during this
                > day, given by God, we will be in communion of
                > prayer with You ...�
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                >
                > Archives located at
                > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > Archives located at
                > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
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              • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                ... Actually, this is absolutely correct. First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark s travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 7, 2002
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                  >
                  > Blessed is our God!
                  >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                  >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                  >the Church!
                  >En Xto,
                  >+Emanuel

                  Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                  First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travel
                  to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                  betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                  Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                  St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                  (or even being present).

                  Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                  towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                  Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                  of Orthodoxy.

                  And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                  penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                  become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                  betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                • Michael Nikitin
                  Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one. If Fr.Alexander read the History he
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                    Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations
                    Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.

                    If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark of
                    Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.

                    I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it regularly to
                    promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity to
                    slander our Saints.

                    How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give spiritual
                    advice to his faithful.

                    At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple immersion and not
                    much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                    Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                    Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism has
                    changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.

                    Michael N.




                    From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                    Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700

                    >
                    > Blessed is our God!
                    >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                    >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                    >the Church!
                    >En Xto,
                    >+Emanuel

                    Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                    First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travelto
                    Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                    betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                    Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                    St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                    (or even being present).

                    Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                    towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                    Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                    of Orthodoxy.

                    And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                    penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                    become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                    betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                    With love in Christ,

                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • sergerust2002
                    ... It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy Canons : - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in prayer with heretics
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                      Here are some comments on father Alexander's :

                      > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider
                      > St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                      > with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                      It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy
                      Canons :
                      - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in
                      prayer with heretics be excommunicated» (45th Apostolic)
                      - «On must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics »
                      (33rd Laodicea)



                      > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened
                      > with a joint prayer, St. Mark must be considered to be
                      > a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating (or even being present).

                      Joint prayer ? The Pope opened the Council (not every session)
                      with «Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!». Some psalms (not
                      prayers) were then sung. Moreover, on their return, the orthodox
                      repented in these terms : «We have sold our faith, we have
                      exchanged Orthodoxy for heterodoxy, and loosing our former pure faith
                      have become azymites. May our hands, which signed the unjust decree
                      be cut off! May our tongues which have spoken consent with the Latins
                      be plucked out!» These were the words of the good but week
                      pastors–
                      Anthony of Heraclea, the oldest members of the Council, and others
                      (Ducas. c.XXXI, p. 120, 121. Ed 1649). These are the words we would
                      expect today - when the apostasy is much bigger - from the Serbian
                      officials and from some of their defenders within ROCOR. Upon their
                      return to Constantinople, "many of the bishops would not
                      officiate together with the new Patriarch [Metrophanes, although he
                      had also repented]; when the Emperor tried to compel them to do so,
                      Mark of Ephesus and Anthony of Heraclea secretly left
                      Constantinople"
                      (The History of the Council of Florence, by Ivan N. Ostroumoff").



                      > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                      > that he penned after the Council, in which he states that
                      > Roman Catholics who become Orthodox must be received
                      > by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                      St Mark wrote: "Avoid brethren such teachers [the Roman
                      Catholics], and all communion with them. They are false apostles,
                      workers of evil transformed into Apostles of Christ ...".



                      Serge Rust
                    • pcarp88
                      Dear Brother Michael, The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your comments regarding the integrity of Father L. … Fr.Alexander. You
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                        Dear Brother Michael,

                        The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                        comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                        are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                        heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                        faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                        they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                        you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?

                        If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve in
                        our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours to
                        attend services.

                        Nicolai from NY


                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                        > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                        insinuations
                        > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                        >
                        > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark
                        of
                        > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                        >
                        > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                        regularly to
                        > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity
                        to
                        > slander our Saints.
                        >
                        > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                        spiritual
                        > advice to his faithful.
                        >
                        > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                        immersion and not
                        > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                        > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                        > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism
                        has
                        > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                        >
                        > Michael N.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                        > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                        > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                        > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Blessed is our God!
                        > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                        considerd
                        > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                        Orthodox than
                        > >the Church!
                        > >En Xto,
                        > >+Emanuel
                        >
                        > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                        >
                        > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's
                        travelto
                        > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                        be a
                        > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                        >
                        > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                        prayer,
                        > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                        participating
                        > (or even being present).
                        >
                        > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St.
                        Mark
                        > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                        > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                        betrayal
                        > of Orthodoxy.
                        >
                        > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that
                        he
                        > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                        who
                        > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                        to be a
                        > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > With love in Christ,
                        >
                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                        > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                      • vkozyreff
                        Dear List, I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see any in Michael
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
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                          Dear List,

                          I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                          disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see
                          any in Michael Nikitin's post.

                          Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                          would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                          dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").

                          One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                          position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                          ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                          days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                          makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a court
                          accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                          fringe?

                          Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's contribution
                          looks important and positive, in this particular case.

                          As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                          too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                          councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian of
                          piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                          themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                          Roman Pope in 1848.)

                          I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.

                          In God,

                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                          > Dear Brother Michael,
                          >
                          > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                          > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                          > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                          > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                          > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                          > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                          > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                          >
                          > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve
                          in
                          > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                          to
                          > attend services.
                          >
                          > Nicolai from NY
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                          > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                          > insinuations
                          > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                          > >
                          > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                          Mark
                          > of
                          > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                          > >
                          > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                          > regularly to
                          > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                          audacity
                          > to
                          > > slander our Saints.
                          > >
                          > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                          > spiritual
                          > > advice to his faithful.
                          > >
                          > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                          > immersion and not
                          > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                          being
                          > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                          > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                          baptism
                          > has
                          > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                          > >
                          > > Michael N.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                          > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                          > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Blessed is our God!
                          > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                          > considerd
                          > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                          > Orthodox than
                          > > >the Church!
                          > > >En Xto,
                          > > >+Emanuel
                          > >
                          > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                          > >
                          > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                          Mark's
                          > travelto
                          > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                          > be a
                          > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          > >
                          > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                          > prayer,
                          > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                          > participating
                          > > (or even being present).
                          > >
                          > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                          St.
                          > Mark
                          > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                          > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                          > betrayal
                          > > of Orthodoxy.
                          > >
                          > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                          that
                          > he
                          > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                          > who
                          > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                          > to be a
                          > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > With love in Christ,
                          > >
                          > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                          > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                          > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                        • pcarp88
                          Vladimir, I object your Honor! I don t agree with the tone of some forum members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just* in condemning
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 9, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Vladimir,
                            I object your Honor! I don't agree with the tone of some forum
                            members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just*
                            in condemning other members who may *appear* to fault short of
                            following the canons of the church in their dialogue. Father L. may
                            be guilty of the same.

                            My point is ..."The words from the lips of a wise man are gracious"
                            (Eccl. 10:2)


                            Nicolai from NY



                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                            wrote:
                            > Dear List,
                            >
                            > I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                            > disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not
                            see
                            > any in Michael Nikitin's post.
                            >
                            > Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                            > would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                            > dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").
                            >
                            > One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                            > position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                            > ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                            > days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                            > makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a
                            court
                            > accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                            > fringe?
                            >
                            > Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's
                            contribution
                            > looks important and positive, in this particular case.
                            >
                            > As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                            > too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                            > councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian
                            of
                            > piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                            > themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                            > Roman Pope in 1848.)
                            >
                            > I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.
                            >
                            > In God,
                            >
                            > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                            > > Dear Brother Michael,
                            > >
                            > > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and
                            your
                            > > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander.
                            You
                            > > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                            > > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                            > > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                            > > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who
                            told
                            > > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                            > >
                            > > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to
                            serve
                            > in
                            > > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                            > to
                            > > attend services.
                            > >
                            > > Nicolai from NY
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...>
                            wrote:
                            > > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                            > > insinuations
                            > > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                            > > >
                            > > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                            > Mark
                            > > of
                            > > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                            > > >
                            > > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                            > > regularly to
                            > > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                            > audacity
                            > > to
                            > > > slander our Saints.
                            > > >
                            > > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                            > > spiritual
                            > > > advice to his faithful.
                            > > >
                            > > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                            > > immersion and not
                            > > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                            > being
                            > > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart
                            grace.
                            > > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                            > baptism
                            > > has
                            > > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                            > > >
                            > > > Michael N.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                            > > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                            > > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                            > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                            > > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Blessed is our God!
                            > > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                            > > considerd
                            > > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                            > > Orthodox than
                            > > > >the Church!
                            > > > >En Xto,
                            > > > >+Emanuel
                            > > >
                            > > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                            > > >
                            > > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                            > Mark's
                            > > travelto
                            > > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics
                            to
                            > > be a
                            > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                            > > >
                            > > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a
                            joint
                            > > prayer,
                            > > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                            > > participating
                            > > > (or even being present).
                            > > >
                            > > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                            > St.
                            > > Mark
                            > > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                            > > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be
                            a
                            > > betrayal
                            > > > of Orthodoxy.
                            > > >
                            > > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                            > that
                            > > he
                            > > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman
                            Catholics
                            > > who
                            > > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not
                            Baptism)
                            > > to be a
                            > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > With love in Christ,
                            > > >
                            > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            _________________________________________________________________
                            > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                            > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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