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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials

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  • William R. Mosher
    Who has declared the Patriarchate of Serbia and the Patriarchate of Moscow heretical? What heresy condemned by an ecumenical council are they guilty of? ROCOR
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
      Who has declared the Patriarchate of Serbia and the Patriarchate of Moscow heretical? What heresy condemned by an ecumenical council are they guilty of? ROCOR has always been in communion with the Patriarchate of Serbia, even when the Patriarchate of Serbia continue to be in communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow.

      In IC XC,
      Alban
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: vkozyreff
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials



      - if, despite the MP and the Serbian Church being heretical, one may
      still have communion with them,




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William R. Mosher
      Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
        Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.

        In IC XC,
        Alban
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: vkozyreff
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials


        Dear Joachim,

        What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • arescan@canada.com
        Blessed is our God! Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
          Blessed is our God!
          Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than the Church!
          En Xto,
          +Emanuel
          "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him heretical?

          In IC XC,
          Alban
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: sergerust2002
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials


          Dear List,

          Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has�

          a distinction appears between the orthodox �Serbians�, and the
          �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian Patriarch
          addresses the Pope :

          � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
          Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
          prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
          by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
          confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
          religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
          day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...�




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vkozyreff
          Dear Alban, Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ talked even to the Devil. What is wrong is an orthodox metropolitan advising a
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 3, 2002
            Dear Alban,

            Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ
            talked even to the Devil.

            What is wrong is an "orthodox" metropolitan advising a heretic
            leader that he is going to have communion with him, with Buddhists
            and Moslems. This is indulging in ecumenism. Ecumenism has been
            anathematised by our Church. Ignoring this anathema is excluding
            onself automatically from our Church.

            In spite of this, we are told in our Church that there is nothing
            wrong with it, and that we may continue, with some of our bishops, to
            commune with heretics. We have come to a situation where people that
            consider themselves as orthodox do not even notice those monstrous
            contradictions.

            Those contradictions are incompatible with orthodoxy. Christ has
            commanded us to be consistent. Inconsistency in matters of faith is
            diabolic. "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no';
            anything beyond these is of evil". Matthew 5:37

            Regarding the nature of heresy, many still believe that a heresy is
            necessarily a proposal that has been officially declared as such by a
            Council. Please use the function "search" in this forum, about the
            term "heresy". This topic has been discussed before with this List.

            In God,

            Vladimir Kozyreff




            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
            > Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an
            evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at
            Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.
            >
            > In IC XC,
            > Alban
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: vkozyreff
            > To: orthodox-synod@y...
            > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials
            >
            >
            > Dear Joachim,
            >
            > What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vkozyreff
            Dear List, Not the manner, but the substance. The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and is part of the World Council of Churches –
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 4, 2002
              Dear List,

              Not the manner, but the substance.

              The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and
              is part of the World Council of Churches – the main organisation of
              the ecumenist heresy. As such, she falls under the 1983 anathema of
              the ROCOR, which reads:

              "To those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's
              Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine
              and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will
              be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or
              denominations, and even religions will be united into one body;

              and who do not distinguish the Priesthood and Mysteries of the Church
              from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of
              heretics is effectual for salvation;

              therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these
              aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their
              heresy of ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the
              supposed unification of separated Christians,

              Anathema!" (" Orthodox Russia " ¹ 10, 1984, page 3).

              This anathema concerns also those who have the appearance of being
              orthodox and participate in a dialogue and joint prayers with active
              or passive followers of the ecumenist movement, that is heretics that
              are outside of Church.

              In Christ,

              Vladimir Kozyreff

              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
              > His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome
              exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the
              old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th
              century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
              Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make
              him heretical?
              >
              > In IC XC,
              > Alban
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: sergerust2002
              > To: orthodox-synod@y...
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
              > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
              >
              >
              > Dear List,
              >
              > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
              >
              > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
              > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
              > addresses the Pope :
              >
              > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
              > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
              common
              > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
              attended
              > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
              > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
              big
              > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
              > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vkozyreff
              Dear List, The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and the Emperor.
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 5, 2002
                Dear List,

                The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was
                the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and
                the Emperor. He was fundamentally orthodox, that is a true orthodox.
                No majority rule here. Orthodox are never the majority. Christ always
                divided men, and the majority had it always wrong.

                If you can find a way that is more orthodox than the way of the
                majority of believers and priests or even the Synod's way, the way
                you have found is the right one.

                An acceptable Moslem should not be a fundamentalist, because the
                teaching of Mohammed contains fundamentally wrong elements that are
                unacceptable and should not be followed. That is why we prefer
                moderate Moslems.

                But no moderate Christians. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither
                hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-17)

                The teaching of Christ being totally right, the only way to be an
                acceptable orthodox is to be totally orthodox, that is fundamentally
                orthodox.

                St. Mark wanted a reunion with the Latino - Catholics, based upon
                unity of faith. He declared that he had come to the Council not to
                sign a capitulation but in order to confirm true and pure doctrine.

                Let us pray that he inspire our hierarchs in their relationship with
                the MP and the Pope of Rome.

                In God,

                Vladimir Kozyreff


                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "arescan@c..." <arescan@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Blessed is our God!
                > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
                than the Church!
                > En Xto,
                > +Emanuel
                > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote: His Holiness, the
                Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox
                hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman
                Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
                St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence,
                addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him
                heretical?
                >
                > In IC XC,
                > Alban
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: sergerust2002
                > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                >
                >
                > Dear List,
                >
                > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
                >
                > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
                > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
                > addresses the Pope :
                >
                > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
                > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
                common
                > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
                attended
                > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
                > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
                big
                > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
                > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
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              • Kiril Bart
                I would think that even church of Rome of the St. Mark s times would considered modern RC heretical, after all new dogmas that they implemented. Subdeacon
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 6, 2002
                  I would think that even church of Rome of the St.
                  Mark's times would considered modern RC heretical,
                  after all new dogmas that they implemented.
                  Subdeacon Kirill
                  --- "arescan@..." <arescan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Blessed is our God!
                  > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus
                  > would be considerd heretical as measured by the
                  > standards of those who are more Orthodox than the
                  > Church!
                  > En Xto,
                  > +Emanuel
                  > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His
                  > Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope
                  > of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address
                  > the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of
                  > the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
                  > St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
                  > Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner.
                  > Does that make him heretical?
                  >
                  > In IC XC,
                  > Alban
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: sergerust2002
                  > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                  > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian
                  > officials
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear List,
                  >
                  > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and
                  > never has�
                  >
                  > a distinction appears between the orthodox
                  > �Serbians�, and the
                  > �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian
                  > Patriarch
                  > addresses the Pope :
                  >
                  > � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation
                  > to come to
                  > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address
                  > our Lord in a common
                  > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer
                  > will be attended
                  > by representatives from the Roman Church and from
                  > other European
                  > confessions, as well as by representatives from
                  > Islam and other big
                  > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness,
                  > that during this
                  > day, given by God, we will be in communion of
                  > prayer with You ...�
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  > Archives located at
                  > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  > Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >
                  > Archives located at
                  > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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                  >
                  >


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                • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                  ... Actually, this is absolutely correct. First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark s travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 7, 2002
                    >
                    > Blessed is our God!
                    >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                    >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                    >the Church!
                    >En Xto,
                    >+Emanuel

                    Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                    First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travel
                    to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                    betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                    Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                    St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                    (or even being present).

                    Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                    towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                    Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                    of Orthodoxy.

                    And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                    penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                    become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                    betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                    With love in Christ,

                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                  • Michael Nikitin
                    Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one. If Fr.Alexander read the History he
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                      Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations
                      Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.

                      If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark of
                      Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.

                      I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it regularly to
                      promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity to
                      slander our Saints.

                      How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give spiritual
                      advice to his faithful.

                      At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple immersion and not
                      much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                      Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                      Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism has
                      changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.

                      Michael N.




                      From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                      Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                      Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700

                      >
                      > Blessed is our God!
                      >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                      >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                      >the Church!
                      >En Xto,
                      >+Emanuel

                      Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                      First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travelto
                      Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                      betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                      Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                      St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                      (or even being present).

                      Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                      towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                      Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                      of Orthodoxy.

                      And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                      penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                      become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                      betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


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                    • sergerust2002
                      ... It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy Canons : - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in prayer with heretics
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                        Here are some comments on father Alexander's :

                        > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider
                        > St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                        > with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                        It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy
                        Canons :
                        - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in
                        prayer with heretics be excommunicated» (45th Apostolic)
                        - «On must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics »
                        (33rd Laodicea)



                        > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened
                        > with a joint prayer, St. Mark must be considered to be
                        > a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating (or even being present).

                        Joint prayer ? The Pope opened the Council (not every session)
                        with «Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!». Some psalms (not
                        prayers) were then sung. Moreover, on their return, the orthodox
                        repented in these terms : «We have sold our faith, we have
                        exchanged Orthodoxy for heterodoxy, and loosing our former pure faith
                        have become azymites. May our hands, which signed the unjust decree
                        be cut off! May our tongues which have spoken consent with the Latins
                        be plucked out!» These were the words of the good but week
                        pastors–
                        Anthony of Heraclea, the oldest members of the Council, and others
                        (Ducas. c.XXXI, p. 120, 121. Ed 1649). These are the words we would
                        expect today - when the apostasy is much bigger - from the Serbian
                        officials and from some of their defenders within ROCOR. Upon their
                        return to Constantinople, "many of the bishops would not
                        officiate together with the new Patriarch [Metrophanes, although he
                        had also repented]; when the Emperor tried to compel them to do so,
                        Mark of Ephesus and Anthony of Heraclea secretly left
                        Constantinople"
                        (The History of the Council of Florence, by Ivan N. Ostroumoff").



                        > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                        > that he penned after the Council, in which he states that
                        > Roman Catholics who become Orthodox must be received
                        > by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                        St Mark wrote: "Avoid brethren such teachers [the Roman
                        Catholics], and all communion with them. They are false apostles,
                        workers of evil transformed into Apostles of Christ ...".



                        Serge Rust
                      • pcarp88
                        Dear Brother Michael, The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your comments regarding the integrity of Father L. … Fr.Alexander. You
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                          Dear Brother Michael,

                          The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                          comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                          are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                          heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                          faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                          they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                          you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?

                          If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve in
                          our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours to
                          attend services.

                          Nicolai from NY


                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                          > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                          insinuations
                          > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                          >
                          > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark
                          of
                          > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                          >
                          > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                          regularly to
                          > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity
                          to
                          > slander our Saints.
                          >
                          > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                          spiritual
                          > advice to his faithful.
                          >
                          > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                          immersion and not
                          > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                          > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                          > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism
                          has
                          > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                          >
                          > Michael N.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                          > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                          > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Blessed is our God!
                          > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                          considerd
                          > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                          Orthodox than
                          > >the Church!
                          > >En Xto,
                          > >+Emanuel
                          >
                          > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                          >
                          > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's
                          travelto
                          > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                          be a
                          > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          >
                          > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                          prayer,
                          > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                          participating
                          > (or even being present).
                          >
                          > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St.
                          Mark
                          > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                          > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                          betrayal
                          > of Orthodoxy.
                          >
                          > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that
                          he
                          > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                          who
                          > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                          to be a
                          > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > With love in Christ,
                          >
                          > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
                          > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                          > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                        • vkozyreff
                          Dear List, I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see any in Michael
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                            Dear List,

                            I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                            disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see
                            any in Michael Nikitin's post.

                            Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                            would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                            dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").

                            One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                            position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                            ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                            days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                            makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a court
                            accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                            fringe?

                            Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's contribution
                            looks important and positive, in this particular case.

                            As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                            too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                            councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian of
                            piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                            themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                            Roman Pope in 1848.)

                            I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.

                            In God,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff

                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                            > Dear Brother Michael,
                            >
                            > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                            > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                            > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                            > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                            > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                            > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                            > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                            >
                            > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve
                            in
                            > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                            to
                            > attend services.
                            >
                            > Nicolai from NY
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                            > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                            > insinuations
                            > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                            > >
                            > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                            Mark
                            > of
                            > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                            > >
                            > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                            > regularly to
                            > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                            audacity
                            > to
                            > > slander our Saints.
                            > >
                            > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                            > spiritual
                            > > advice to his faithful.
                            > >
                            > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                            > immersion and not
                            > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                            being
                            > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                            > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                            baptism
                            > has
                            > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                            > >
                            > > Michael N.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                            > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                            > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                            > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                            > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Blessed is our God!
                            > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                            > considerd
                            > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                            > Orthodox than
                            > > >the Church!
                            > > >En Xto,
                            > > >+Emanuel
                            > >
                            > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                            > >
                            > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                            Mark's
                            > travelto
                            > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                            > be a
                            > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                            > >
                            > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                            > prayer,
                            > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                            > participating
                            > > (or even being present).
                            > >
                            > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                            St.
                            > Mark
                            > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                            > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                            > betrayal
                            > > of Orthodoxy.
                            > >
                            > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                            that
                            > he
                            > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                            > who
                            > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                            > to be a
                            > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > With love in Christ,
                            > >
                            > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > _________________________________________________________________
                            > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                            > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                          • pcarp88
                            Vladimir, I object your Honor! I don t agree with the tone of some forum members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just* in condemning
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 9, 2002
                              Vladimir,
                              I object your Honor! I don't agree with the tone of some forum
                              members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just*
                              in condemning other members who may *appear* to fault short of
                              following the canons of the church in their dialogue. Father L. may
                              be guilty of the same.

                              My point is ..."The words from the lips of a wise man are gracious"
                              (Eccl. 10:2)


                              Nicolai from NY



                              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                              wrote:
                              > Dear List,
                              >
                              > I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                              > disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not
                              see
                              > any in Michael Nikitin's post.
                              >
                              > Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                              > would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                              > dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").
                              >
                              > One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                              > position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                              > ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                              > days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                              > makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a
                              court
                              > accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                              > fringe?
                              >
                              > Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's
                              contribution
                              > looks important and positive, in this particular case.
                              >
                              > As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                              > too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                              > councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian
                              of
                              > piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                              > themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                              > Roman Pope in 1848.)
                              >
                              > I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.
                              >
                              > In God,
                              >
                              > Vladimir Kozyreff
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                              > > Dear Brother Michael,
                              > >
                              > > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and
                              your
                              > > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander.
                              You
                              > > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                              > > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                              > > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                              > > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who
                              told
                              > > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                              > >
                              > > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to
                              serve
                              > in
                              > > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                              > to
                              > > attend services.
                              > >
                              > > Nicolai from NY
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                              > > insinuations
                              > > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                              > > >
                              > > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                              > Mark
                              > > of
                              > > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                              > > >
                              > > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                              > > regularly to
                              > > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                              > audacity
                              > > to
                              > > > slander our Saints.
                              > > >
                              > > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                              > > spiritual
                              > > > advice to his faithful.
                              > > >
                              > > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                              > > immersion and not
                              > > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                              > being
                              > > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart
                              grace.
                              > > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                              > baptism
                              > > has
                              > > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                              > > >
                              > > > Michael N.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                              > > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                              > > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                              > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                              > > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Blessed is our God!
                              > > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                              > > considerd
                              > > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                              > > Orthodox than
                              > > > >the Church!
                              > > > >En Xto,
                              > > > >+Emanuel
                              > > >
                              > > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                              > > >
                              > > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                              > Mark's
                              > > travelto
                              > > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics
                              to
                              > > be a
                              > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                              > > >
                              > > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a
                              joint
                              > > prayer,
                              > > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                              > > participating
                              > > > (or even being present).
                              > > >
                              > > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                              > St.
                              > > Mark
                              > > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                              > > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be
                              a
                              > > betrayal
                              > > > of Orthodoxy.
                              > > >
                              > > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                              > that
                              > > he
                              > > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman
                              Catholics
                              > > who
                              > > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not
                              Baptism)
                              > > to be a
                              > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > With love in Christ,
                              > > >
                              > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              _________________________________________________________________
                              > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                              > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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