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Serbians versus Serbian officials

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  • sergerust2002
    Dear List, Referring to the post dated Jul 15, 2002 by father Alexander Lebedeff : «... the Synod of the Church Abroad does not consider the Serbians or New
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 31, 2002
      Dear List,

      Referring to the post dated Jul 15, 2002 by father Alexander
      Lebedeff :

      «... the Synod of the Church Abroad does not consider the
      Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»

      a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
      «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
      addresses the Pope :

      « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
      Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
      prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
      by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
      confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
      religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
      day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»

      In this connection, father Alexander proposed an interesting quote
      from Metropolitan Vitaly. Here is another one:

      "We should not be indifferent with respect to the last events
      within the Serbian Church. As we know, muscovite Patriarch Alexis has
      been in Yugoslavia and concelebrated with Serbian Patriarch Paul.
      Although this has not yet been a decision at the level of the Synod,
      our good reason should dictate us to be extremely prudent in our
      attitude towards the Serbian Church. For the moment we should not
      invite them to concelebrating in our divine services, we should
      simply limit ourselves to silence, without doing them any reproach,
      even deserved. In other words, we should silently keep spiritually
      aside. In inevitable meetings, we should indicate our amazement, our
      disagreement. Metropolitan Vitaly, 18/31 June 1999"
      (taken from "Ts.N., n°5, (87), year 2000, from "Situation
      of ROCA").


      In Christ,
      Serge Rust
    • Joachim Wertz
      The Serbian Church and the Serbian Patriarch have been concelebrating with the Patriarch of Moscow since the days of Patriarch Aleksii I. In ROCOR terms that
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 31, 2002
        The Serbian Church and the Serbian Patriarch have been concelebrating with
        the Patriarch of Moscow since the days of Patriarch Aleksii I. In ROCOR
        terms that means from the days of Metr. Anastasii. Yet ROCOR and the Serbian
        Church have remained in communion. This is nothing new.
        Joachim Wertz

        ----------
        From: "sergerust2002" <sergerust@...>
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
        Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 12:03 PM


        Dear List,

        Referring to the post dated Jul 15, 2002 by father Alexander
        Lebedeff :

        «... the Synod of the Church Abroad does not consider the
        Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»

        a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
        «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
        addresses the Pope :

        « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
        Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
        prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
        by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
        confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
        religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
        day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»

        In this connection, father Alexander proposed an interesting quote
        from Metropolitan Vitaly. Here is another one:

        "We should not be indifferent with respect to the last events
        within the Serbian Church. As we know, muscovite Patriarch Alexis has
        been in Yugoslavia and concelebrated with Serbian Patriarch Paul.
        Although this has not yet been a decision at the level of the Synod,
        our good reason should dictate us to be extremely prudent in our
        attitude towards the Serbian Church. For the moment we should not
        invite them to concelebrating in our divine services, we should
        simply limit ourselves to silence, without doing them any reproach,
        even deserved. In other words, we should silently keep spiritually
        aside. In inevitable meetings, we should indicate our amazement, our
        disagreement. Metropolitan Vitaly, 18/31 June 1999"
        (taken from "Ts.N., n°5, (87), year 2000, from "Situation
        of ROCA").


        In Christ,
        Serge Rust





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      • vkozyreff
        Dear Joachim, What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope. One would expect this to entail a change in our Church s relationship to the
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
          Dear Joachim,

          What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.

          One would expect this to entail a change in our Church's relationship
          to the Serbian Church. But this did not happen. Moreover, nobody is
          surprised. They say "nothing new".

          In other words,

          - if it is right that having communion with heretics is not being
          heretical oneself any longer,

          - if, despite the MP and the Serbian Church being heretical, one may
          still have communion with them,

          - if bishops do it and encourage believers to do it,

          - if those that object are excommunicated,

          - if our relationship with heretics is not modified when they add a
          new heresy to an old one,

          then, one may conclude:

          "For a heresy to be a heresy, it should be blacker than a heresy and
          more anathema than anathema".

          (I wonder whether this is not a bit heretical, after all).

          In God,

          Vladimir Kozyreff




          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Joachim Wertz" <wertz@p...> wrote:
          > The Serbian Church and the Serbian Patriarch have been
          concelebrating with
          > the Patriarch of Moscow since the days of Patriarch Aleksii I. In
          ROCOR
          > terms that means from the days of Metr. Anastasii. Yet ROCOR and
          the Serbian
          > Church have remained in communion. This is nothing new.
          > Joachim Wertz
          >
          > ----------
          > From: "sergerust2002" <sergerust@h...>
          > To: orthodox-synod@y...
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
          > Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2002, 12:03 PM
          >
          >
          > Dear List,
          >
          > Referring to the post dated Jul 15, 2002 by father Alexander
          > Lebedeff :
          >
          > «... the Synod of the Church Abroad does not consider the
          > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
          >
          > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
          > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
          > addresses the Pope :
          >
          > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
          > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
          > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
          > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
          > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
          > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
          > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
          >
          > In this connection, father Alexander proposed an interesting quote
          > from Metropolitan Vitaly. Here is another one:
          >
          > "We should not be indifferent with respect to the last events
          > within the Serbian Church. As we know, muscovite Patriarch Alexis
          has
          > been in Yugoslavia and concelebrated with Serbian Patriarch Paul.
          > Although this has not yet been a decision at the level of the Synod,
          > our good reason should dictate us to be extremely prudent in our
          > attitude towards the Serbian Church. For the moment we should not
          > invite them to concelebrating in our divine services, we should
          > simply limit ourselves to silence, without doing them any reproach,
          > even deserved. In other words, we should silently keep spiritually
          > aside. In inevitable meetings, we should indicate our amazement, our
          > disagreement. Metropolitan Vitaly, 18/31 June 1999"
          > (taken from "Ts.N., n°5, (87), year 2000, from "Situation
          > of ROCA").
          >
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Serge Rust
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
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          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • William R. Mosher
          Who has declared the Patriarchate of Serbia and the Patriarchate of Moscow heretical? What heresy condemned by an ecumenical council are they guilty of? ROCOR
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
            Who has declared the Patriarchate of Serbia and the Patriarchate of Moscow heretical? What heresy condemned by an ecumenical council are they guilty of? ROCOR has always been in communion with the Patriarchate of Serbia, even when the Patriarchate of Serbia continue to be in communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow.

            In IC XC,
            Alban
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: vkozyreff
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials



            - if, despite the MP and the Serbian Church being heretical, one may
            still have communion with them,




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William R. Mosher
            Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
              Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.

              In IC XC,
              Alban
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: vkozyreff
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials


              Dear Joachim,

              What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William R. Mosher
              His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
                His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him heretical?

                In IC XC,
                Alban
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: sergerust2002
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials


                Dear List,

                Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»

                a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
                «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
                addresses the Pope :

                « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
                Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
                prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
                by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
                confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
                religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
                day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • arescan@canada.com
                Blessed is our God! Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 2, 2002
                  Blessed is our God!
                  Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than the Church!
                  En Xto,
                  +Emanuel
                  "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him heretical?

                  In IC XC,
                  Alban
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: sergerust2002
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials


                  Dear List,

                  Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has�

                  a distinction appears between the orthodox �Serbians�, and the
                  �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian Patriarch
                  addresses the Pope :

                  � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
                  Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a common
                  prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be attended
                  by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
                  confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other big
                  religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
                  day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...�




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • vkozyreff
                  Dear Alban, Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ talked even to the Devil. What is wrong is an orthodox metropolitan advising a
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 3, 2002
                    Dear Alban,

                    Talking to the Pope or to any other heretic is all right. Christ
                    talked even to the Devil.

                    What is wrong is an "orthodox" metropolitan advising a heretic
                    leader that he is going to have communion with him, with Buddhists
                    and Moslems. This is indulging in ecumenism. Ecumenism has been
                    anathematised by our Church. Ignoring this anathema is excluding
                    onself automatically from our Church.

                    In spite of this, we are told in our Church that there is nothing
                    wrong with it, and that we may continue, with some of our bishops, to
                    commune with heretics. We have come to a situation where people that
                    consider themselves as orthodox do not even notice those monstrous
                    contradictions.

                    Those contradictions are incompatible with orthodoxy. Christ has
                    commanded us to be consistent. Inconsistency in matters of faith is
                    diabolic. "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no';
                    anything beyond these is of evil". Matthew 5:37

                    Regarding the nature of heresy, many still believe that a heresy is
                    necessarily a proposal that has been officially declared as such by a
                    Council. Please use the function "search" in this forum, about the
                    term "heresy". This topic has been discussed before with this List.

                    In God,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff




                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
                    > Discourse or dialog with the Pope of Rome is not necessarily an
                    evil thing. Please remember that the ROCOR had official observers at
                    Vatican II. Did that make the ROCOR also heretical in the 1960's?.
                    >
                    > In IC XC,
                    > Alban
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: vkozyreff
                    > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                    > Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:41 AM
                    > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Serbians versus Serbian officials
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Joachim,
                    >
                    > What has changed is the discourse of Patriarch Paul to the Pope.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • vkozyreff
                    Dear List, Not the manner, but the substance. The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and is part of the World Council of Churches –
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 4, 2002
                      Dear List,

                      Not the manner, but the substance.

                      The Serbian Church is an active member of the ecumenist movement and
                      is part of the World Council of Churches – the main organisation of
                      the ecumenist heresy. As such, she falls under the 1983 anathema of
                      the ROCOR, which reads:

                      "To those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's
                      Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine
                      and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will
                      be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or
                      denominations, and even religions will be united into one body;

                      and who do not distinguish the Priesthood and Mysteries of the Church
                      from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of
                      heretics is effectual for salvation;

                      therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these
                      aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their
                      heresy of ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the
                      supposed unification of separated Christians,

                      Anathema!" (" Orthodox Russia " ¹ 10, 1984, page 3).

                      This anathema concerns also those who have the appearance of being
                      orthodox and participate in a dialogue and joint prayers with active
                      or passive followers of the ecumenist movement, that is heretics that
                      are outside of Church.

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote:
                      > His Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome
                      exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the
                      old Roman Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th
                      century. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
                      Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make
                      him heretical?
                      >
                      > In IC XC,
                      > Alban
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: sergerust2002
                      > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear List,
                      >
                      > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
                      >
                      > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
                      > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
                      > addresses the Pope :
                      >
                      > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
                      > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
                      common
                      > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
                      attended
                      > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
                      > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
                      big
                      > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
                      > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • vkozyreff
                      Dear List, The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and the Emperor.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 5, 2002
                        Dear List,

                        The most interesting thing about St Mark of Ephesus is that he was
                        the Church, when he was alone against the Synod, the Patriarch and
                        the Emperor. He was fundamentally orthodox, that is a true orthodox.
                        No majority rule here. Orthodox are never the majority. Christ always
                        divided men, and the majority had it always wrong.

                        If you can find a way that is more orthodox than the way of the
                        majority of believers and priests or even the Synod's way, the way
                        you have found is the right one.

                        An acceptable Moslem should not be a fundamentalist, because the
                        teaching of Mohammed contains fundamentally wrong elements that are
                        unacceptable and should not be followed. That is why we prefer
                        moderate Moslems.

                        But no moderate Christians. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither
                        hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-17)

                        The teaching of Christ being totally right, the only way to be an
                        acceptable orthodox is to be totally orthodox, that is fundamentally
                        orthodox.

                        St. Mark wanted a reunion with the Latino - Catholics, based upon
                        unity of faith. He declared that he had come to the Council not to
                        sign a capitulation but in order to confirm true and pure doctrine.

                        Let us pray that he inspire our hierarchs in their relationship with
                        the MP and the Pope of Rome.

                        In God,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff


                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "arescan@c..." <arescan@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Blessed is our God!
                        > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                        heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox
                        than the Church!
                        > En Xto,
                        > +Emanuel
                        > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@s...> wrote: His Holiness, the
                        Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope of Rome exactly as Orthodox
                        hierarchs have address the Pope of Rome since the old Roman
                        Patriarchate of the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
                        St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at Florence,
                        addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner. Does that make him
                        heretical?
                        >
                        > In IC XC,
                        > Alban
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: sergerust2002
                        > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear List,
                        >
                        > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has»
                        >
                        > a distinction appears between the orthodox «Serbians», and the
                        > «the Serbian officials». See how the Serbian Patriarch
                        > addresses the Pope :
                        >
                        > « We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come to
                        > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
                        common
                        > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
                        attended
                        > by representatives from the Roman Church and from other European
                        > confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and other
                        big
                        > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that during this
                        > day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with You ...»
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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                        >
                        >
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                        Service.
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                        >
                        >
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                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kiril Bart
                        I would think that even church of Rome of the St. Mark s times would considered modern RC heretical, after all new dogmas that they implemented. Subdeacon
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 6, 2002
                          I would think that even church of Rome of the St.
                          Mark's times would considered modern RC heretical,
                          after all new dogmas that they implemented.
                          Subdeacon Kirill
                          --- "arescan@..." <arescan@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Blessed is our God!
                          > Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus
                          > would be considerd heretical as measured by the
                          > standards of those who are more Orthodox than the
                          > Church!
                          > En Xto,
                          > +Emanuel
                          > "William R. Mosher" <woogey@...> wrote: His
                          > Holiness, the Patriarch of Serbia address the Pope
                          > of Rome exactly as Orthodox hierarchs have address
                          > the Pope of Rome since the old Roman Patriarchate of
                          > the West went into schism in the 11th century. Even
                          > St. Mark of Ephesus, that champion of Orthodoxy at
                          > Florence, addressed the Pope of Rome in such manner.
                          > Does that make him heretical?
                          >
                          > In IC XC,
                          > Alban
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: sergerust2002
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM
                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian
                          > officials
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear List,
                          >
                          > Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and
                          > never has�
                          >
                          > a distinction appears between the orthodox
                          > �Serbians�, and the
                          > �the Serbian officials�. See how the Serbian
                          > Patriarch
                          > addresses the Pope :
                          >
                          > � We cordially thank you for your kind invitation
                          > to come to
                          > Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address
                          > our Lord in a common
                          > prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer
                          > will be attended
                          > by representatives from the Roman Church and from
                          > other European
                          > confessions, as well as by representatives from
                          > Islam and other big
                          > religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness,
                          > that during this
                          > day, given by God, we will be in communion of
                          > prayer with You ...�
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          > Archives located at
                          > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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                          >
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                          > Terms of Service.
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                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                          ... Actually, this is absolutely correct. First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark s travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 7, 2002
                            >
                            > Blessed is our God!
                            >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                            >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                            >the Church!
                            >En Xto,
                            >+Emanuel

                            Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                            First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travel
                            to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                            betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                            Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                            St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                            (or even being present).

                            Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                            towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                            Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                            of Orthodoxy.

                            And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                            penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                            become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                            betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                            With love in Christ,

                            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          • Michael Nikitin
                            Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one. If Fr.Alexander read the History he
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                              Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical insinuations
                              Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.

                              If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark of
                              Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.

                              I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it regularly to
                              promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity to
                              slander our Saints.

                              How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give spiritual
                              advice to his faithful.

                              At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple immersion and not
                              much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                              Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                              Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism has
                              changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.

                              Michael N.




                              From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                              Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                              Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700

                              >
                              > Blessed is our God!
                              >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be considerd
                              >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more Orthodox than
                              >the Church!
                              >En Xto,
                              >+Emanuel

                              Actually, this is absolutely correct.

                              First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's travelto
                              Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a
                              betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                              Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint prayer,
                              St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating
                              (or even being present).

                              Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St. Mark
                              towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                              Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a betrayal
                              of Orthodoxy.

                              And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that he
                              penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics who
                              become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a
                              betrayal of Orthodoxy.





                              With love in Christ,

                              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


                              _________________________________________________________________
                              MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                              http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                            • sergerust2002
                              ... It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy Canons : - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in prayer with heretics
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                                Here are some comments on father Alexander's :

                                > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider
                                > St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue
                                > with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                                It is less a matter of «ultra-fanatical fringe» but of Holy
                                Canons :
                                - «Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon who only joins in
                                prayer with heretics be excommunicated» (45th Apostolic)
                                - «On must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics »
                                (33rd Laodicea)



                                > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened
                                > with a joint prayer, St. Mark must be considered to be
                                > a betrayer of Orthodoxy for participating (or even being present).

                                Joint prayer ? The Pope opened the Council (not every session)
                                with «Blessed be the Lord God of Israel!». Some psalms (not
                                prayers) were then sung. Moreover, on their return, the orthodox
                                repented in these terms : «We have sold our faith, we have
                                exchanged Orthodoxy for heterodoxy, and loosing our former pure faith
                                have become azymites. May our hands, which signed the unjust decree
                                be cut off! May our tongues which have spoken consent with the Latins
                                be plucked out!» These were the words of the good but week
                                pastors–
                                Anthony of Heraclea, the oldest members of the Council, and others
                                (Ducas. c.XXXI, p. 120, 121. Ed 1649). These are the words we would
                                expect today - when the apostasy is much bigger - from the Serbian
                                officials and from some of their defenders within ROCOR. Upon their
                                return to Constantinople, "many of the bishops would not
                                officiate together with the new Patriarch [Metrophanes, although he
                                had also repented]; when the Emperor tried to compel them to do so,
                                Mark of Ephesus and Anthony of Heraclea secretly left
                                Constantinople"
                                (The History of the Council of Florence, by Ivan N. Ostroumoff").



                                > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                                > that he penned after the Council, in which he states that
                                > Roman Catholics who become Orthodox must be received
                                > by **Chrismation** (not Baptism) to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy.

                                St Mark wrote: "Avoid brethren such teachers [the Roman
                                Catholics], and all communion with them. They are false apostles,
                                workers of evil transformed into Apostles of Christ ...".



                                Serge Rust
                              • pcarp88
                                Dear Brother Michael, The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your comments regarding the integrity of Father L. … Fr.Alexander. You
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                                  Dear Brother Michael,

                                  The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                                  comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                                  are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                                  heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                                  faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                                  they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                                  you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?

                                  If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve in
                                  our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours to
                                  attend services.

                                  Nicolai from NY


                                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                                  > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                                  insinuations
                                  > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                                  >
                                  > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St. Mark
                                  of
                                  > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                                  >
                                  > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                                  regularly to
                                  > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the audacity
                                  to
                                  > slander our Saints.
                                  >
                                  > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                                  spiritual
                                  > advice to his faithful.
                                  >
                                  > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                                  immersion and not
                                  > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace being
                                  > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                                  > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the baptism
                                  has
                                  > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                                  >
                                  > Michael N.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                  > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                  > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                  > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                                  > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Blessed is our God!
                                  > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                                  considerd
                                  > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                                  Orthodox than
                                  > >the Church!
                                  > >En Xto,
                                  > >+Emanuel
                                  >
                                  > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                                  >
                                  > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St. Mark's
                                  travelto
                                  > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                                  be a
                                  > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                  >
                                  > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                                  prayer,
                                  > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                                  participating
                                  > (or even being present).
                                  >
                                  > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by St.
                                  Mark
                                  > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                                  > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                                  betrayal
                                  > of Orthodoxy.
                                  >
                                  > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark that
                                  he
                                  > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                                  who
                                  > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                                  to be a
                                  > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > With love in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                                  > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                                • vkozyreff
                                  Dear List, I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see any in Michael
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 8, 2002
                                    Dear List,

                                    I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                                    disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not see
                                    any in Michael Nikitin's post.

                                    Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                                    would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                                    dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").

                                    One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                                    position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                                    ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                                    days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                                    makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a court
                                    accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                                    fringe?

                                    Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's contribution
                                    looks important and positive, in this particular case.

                                    As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                                    too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                                    councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian of
                                    piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                                    themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                                    Roman Pope in 1848.)

                                    I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.

                                    In God,

                                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                                    > Dear Brother Michael,
                                    >
                                    > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and your
                                    > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander. You
                                    > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                                    > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                                    > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                                    > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who told
                                    > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                                    >
                                    > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to serve
                                    in
                                    > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                                    to
                                    > attend services.
                                    >
                                    > Nicolai from NY
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...> wrote:
                                    > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                                    > insinuations
                                    > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                                    > >
                                    > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                                    Mark
                                    > of
                                    > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                                    > >
                                    > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                                    > regularly to
                                    > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                                    audacity
                                    > to
                                    > > slander our Saints.
                                    > >
                                    > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                                    > spiritual
                                    > > advice to his faithful.
                                    > >
                                    > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                                    > immersion and not
                                    > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                                    being
                                    > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart grace.
                                    > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                                    baptism
                                    > has
                                    > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                                    > >
                                    > > Michael N.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                    > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                    > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                    > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                                    > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Blessed is our God!
                                    > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                                    > considerd
                                    > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                                    > Orthodox than
                                    > > >the Church!
                                    > > >En Xto,
                                    > > >+Emanuel
                                    > >
                                    > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                                    > >
                                    > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                                    Mark's
                                    > travelto
                                    > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics to
                                    > be a
                                    > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                    > >
                                    > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a joint
                                    > prayer,
                                    > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                                    > participating
                                    > > (or even being present).
                                    > >
                                    > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                                    St.
                                    > Mark
                                    > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                                    > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be a
                                    > betrayal
                                    > > of Orthodoxy.
                                    > >
                                    > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                                    that
                                    > he
                                    > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman Catholics
                                    > who
                                    > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not Baptism)
                                    > to be a
                                    > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > With love in Christ,
                                    > >
                                    > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                                    > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
                                  • pcarp88
                                    Vladimir, I object your Honor! I don t agree with the tone of some forum members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just* in condemning
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 9, 2002
                                      Vladimir,
                                      I object your Honor! I don't agree with the tone of some forum
                                      members who by virtue of their hot headyness believe they are *just*
                                      in condemning other members who may *appear* to fault short of
                                      following the canons of the church in their dialogue. Father L. may
                                      be guilty of the same.

                                      My point is ..."The words from the lips of a wise man are gracious"
                                      (Eccl. 10:2)


                                      Nicolai from NY



                                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Dear List,
                                      >
                                      > I totally agree with Nicolai that forms should be respected. I
                                      > disagree however when he speaks about personal attacks. I do not
                                      see
                                      > any in Michael Nikitin's post.
                                      >
                                      > Father Alexander tone too was brisk ("the ultra-fanatical fringe
                                      > would consider St. Mark's travel to Florence/Ferrara in order to
                                      > dialogue with the Roman Catholics to be a betrayal of Orthodoxy").
                                      >
                                      > One may understand Michael Nikitin's comments on Father Alexander's
                                      > position, which is (who would deny it) always lenient about
                                      > ecumenism, and which is unexpected in the orthodox Church. In our
                                      > days, it seems that taking into account the canons and anathemas
                                      > makes you a fanatic. You refer to a court of law. Would such a
                                      court
                                      > accept that respecting the law is being part of the ultra-fanatical
                                      > fringe?
                                      >
                                      > Even if one may dispute the tone used, Michael Nikitin's
                                      contribution
                                      > looks important and positive, in this particular case.
                                      >
                                      > As you say, we need priests. We need believers as well. Lay people
                                      > too are the guarantors of the faith. "Neither the hierarchy nor
                                      > councils could ever introduce novelty, since with us the guardian
                                      of
                                      > piety and faith is the very Body of the Church, i.e., the people
                                      > themselves." (Encyclical Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs to the
                                      > Roman Pope in 1848.)
                                      >
                                      > I hope that father Alexander will forgive me and I beg his prayers.
                                      >
                                      > In God,
                                      >
                                      > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                      >
                                      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "pcarp88" <pcarp88@y...> wrote:
                                      > > Dear Brother Michael,
                                      > >
                                      > > The smoke seems to be rising in the debate over St. Mark, and
                                      your
                                      > > comments regarding the integrity of Father L. …"Fr.Alexander.
                                      You
                                      > > are a priest behave like one" & "how can Fr.Alexander say these
                                      > > heretical statements and give spiritual advice to his
                                      > > faithful,"…….....would be objectionable in a court of law because
                                      > > they are personal attacks. How would you react to someone who
                                      told
                                      > > you, "You're an ORTHODOX LIST member so behave like one!"?
                                      > >
                                      > > If we had enough "unworthy" priests left around the world to
                                      serve
                                      > in
                                      > > our churches, some of our faithful would not need to travel hours
                                      > to
                                      > > attend services.
                                      > >
                                      > > Nicolai from NY
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@h...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > Absolutely incorrect Fr.Alexander. Stop with these heretical
                                      > > insinuations
                                      > > > Fr.Alexander. You are a priest behave like one.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > If Fr.Alexander read the History he would have known that St.
                                      > Mark
                                      > > of
                                      > > > Ephesus did not pray with the heretics.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I am surprised(I really shouldn't since he's been doing it
                                      > > regularly to
                                      > > > promote his agenda of ecumenism) that Fr.Alexander has the
                                      > audacity
                                      > > to
                                      > > > slander our Saints.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > How can Fr.Alexander say these heretical statements and give
                                      > > spiritual
                                      > > > advice to his faithful.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > At the time of St. Mark the Roman Catholics had the triple
                                      > > immersion and not
                                      > > > much had changed as to baptism except they didn't have grace
                                      > being
                                      > > > Anathematised. Chrismation was given as economia to impart
                                      grace.
                                      > > > Now the Roman Catholics don't have triple immersion and the
                                      > baptism
                                      > > has
                                      > > > changed to the point that ROCOR baptises them.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Michael N.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                      > > > Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                      > > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Serbians versus Serbian officials
                                      > > > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:56 -0700
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Blessed is our God!
                                      > > > >Yes, it would seem that Blessed Mark of Ephesus would be
                                      > > considerd
                                      > > > >heretical as measured by the standards of those who are more
                                      > > Orthodox than
                                      > > > >the Church!
                                      > > > >En Xto,
                                      > > > >+Emanuel
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Actually, this is absolutely correct.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > First of all, the ultra-fanatical fringe would consider St.
                                      > Mark's
                                      > > travelto
                                      > > > Florence/Ferrara in order to dialogue with the Roman Catholics
                                      to
                                      > > be a
                                      > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Secondly, since every session of the Council opened with a
                                      joint
                                      > > prayer,
                                      > > > St. Mark must be considered to be a betrayer of Orthodoxy for
                                      > > participating
                                      > > > (or even being present).
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thirdly, they would claim that the language of respect used by
                                      > St.
                                      > > Mark
                                      > > > towards the Pope and other Roman Catholic Prelates during the
                                      > > > Council (Holy Father, esteemed Brethren in Christ, etc.) to be
                                      a
                                      > > betrayal
                                      > > > of Orthodoxy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > And, finally, they would consider the Encyclical that St. Mark
                                      > that
                                      > > he
                                      > > > penned after the Council, in which he states that Roman
                                      Catholics
                                      > > who
                                      > > > become Orthodox must be received by **Chrismation** (not
                                      Baptism)
                                      > > to be a
                                      > > > betrayal of Orthodoxy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > With love in Christ,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
                                      > > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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