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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Rename the List?

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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    ... Thank you for stating this so clearly. This makes the answer so simple as to be obvious to anyone. The reason that the Synod of the Church Abroad would not
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 15, 2002
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      >Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
      >
      >I am a simple believer. I know in part at least the content of the
      >accusation. Many do. The accusation concerns apparent repeated cases
      >of communion with heretics.
      >
      >The accusations seem to be serious to many who know them. If the
      >Synod believes the accusations are unfounded, should it not explain
      >why it is so to the believers? We are all ready to listen and we all
      >beg our pastors to respond. Why this silence? We need the conclusion
      >of the judgement, not to condemn priests, but to show to us,
      >believers, why their position is erroneous.
      >
      >I think that even those who did not separate from the Synod should
      >know why those disturbing repeated cases of apparent communion with
      >heretics are considered as insignificant.


      Thank you for stating this so clearly.

      This makes the answer so simple as to be obvious to anyone.

      The reason that the Synod of the Church Abroad would not consider as valid
      any accusations made against a bishop or other clergyman of the ROCOR for
      serving with Serbians or New Calendarists based on the premise that they
      are heretics--is simply because the Synod of the Church Abroad does not
      consider the Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never has.

      The premise is false, so the accusation has no merit and must be dismissed.

      See the following Statement by Metropolitan Vitaly, back in 1986, when
      there were no doubts about his being subject to undue influence because of
      his frailty:

      "At the present time the majority of Local Orthodox Churches are wounded by
      two terrible blows: the new calendar and ecumenism. However,
      notwithstanding their calamitous predicament we dare not, and may the Lord
      forbid us from doing so, declare them void of God's grace (emphasis
      supplied)." (Nativity Epistle of Metropolitan Vitaly, Church Life, 1986,
      #11-12, p. 199)

      Now, that is the historical position of the Church Abroad.




      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
    • joeswaydyn2000
      The whole debate on the list concerning the issue of grace in the MP and grace in the New Calendar Churches is the work, in my opinion, of provocateurs who
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 16, 2002
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        The whole debate on the list concerning the issue of grace in the MP
        and grace in the New Calendar Churches is the work, in my opinion, of
        provocateurs who wish to transform the whole debate of the MP into a
        larger one of "true" and "false" Orthodoxy.

        I personally respect and admire both the positions of Rdr John and Fr
        Alexander on different issues. I personally believe that Rdr John is
        correct concerning the MP, but that Fr Alexander is correct
        concerning the New Calendarists. However, I will say the attempt to
        link them together, and manipulate public opinion to that effect, is
        the product of a propaganda campaign; there is sufficient evidence
        for me, and I will show it.

        The attempts of some to create a sort of 'world-polemic' is, in my
        opinion, the creation of what I call the 'world-shifters' in
        Traditional Orthodoxy (I will demonstrate this in a later posting):
        people who are attempting to shape True Orthodoxy into their mold, a
        mold which is based on the destroying the God-blessed history of the
        ROCOR-- and involves destroying the ROCOR itself, which must preserve
        until the restoration of Russia, no matter how small she may
        be...they wish to bring about the end of the world for the sake of
        their demented vision, a "zeal not according to knowledge"!

        We must be careful to remember that even in the Catacomb Church, the
        True Orthodox Church of Russia, our true-sister Church, opinions
        concerning the Sergianist Patriarchate varied. Yet no judgments were
        called upon the Churches outside the Patriarchate of Russia, and few
        can say that ANYTHING happened between them until the anathema
        against Ecumenism. THESE OPINIONS ARE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN, VARIED
        AND AS OLD AS THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OUTSIDE RUSSIA.

        REMEMBER that the majority of those who are currently the most vocal
        proponents of an active, or *proper* enforcement of the anathema
        against ecumenism were either not members of the Church Abroad when
        it was promulgated, nor did they become members; or they left soon
        after when it was not interpreted in the mind of the 'world-
        shifters'....

        Believe me when I say we must preserve all the traditions of
        Orthodoxy until the end! From the glorification of St Joseph
        (Petrovykh) to the God the Father icon to the toll-houses, we must
        remain untouched the traditions of the Church. We are not in a
        position to judge!

        Again, opinions vary on the Moscow Patriarchate, but none of us
        commune with it. And yet, such a careful effort was made to destroy
        the ROCOR's unity, we have forced the Archbishop of Berlin to meet
        with World Orthodox in an effort to retain his sanity, and believe
        our BRETHREN in the Catacombs do not still exist! We have lost our
        blessed First-Hierarch, and many good and pious people in this last
        schism. Can it not be resolved? Have those 'in their midst' so
        convinced them that schism is better than unity? Was not Bp Varnava,
        the enemy of all these True Orthodox as ROCOR's Bishop in Russia,
        suddenly their hero? No brothers! MORE IS GOING ON THAN WE GIVE
        CREDIT FOR! I beg we do not blame the brethren who have left, in a
        painful schism tearing apart yet more family from family: blame those
        who led them down that path. We must repent of our sins...we allowed
        this to happen...it is we who were not watchful, as enemies of the
        Church we thought of as brothers now pick away at the weaker ones.

        Believe me when I say that too many labelled "True Orthodox" see us
        as worthy of destruction. To this I say: ROCOR is the free part of
        the Russian Church! Try! The Church Abroad was given her Sacred
        Exile by Christ our God, to chastise us and to give the saving power
        of the Church to a fallen Diaspora!

        But to you, my dear brothers in heart, as one awaiting return from
        movements that came from our ROCOR: DO NOT BE CAUGHT UNAWARE!

        A poor sinner who fears for the future, less than an Orthodox
        Christian.

        Joseph Suaiden

        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
        wrote:
        >
        > >Vladimir Kozyreff wrote:
        > >
        > >I am a simple believer. I know in part at least the content of the
        > >accusation. Many do. The accusation concerns apparent repeated
        cases
        > >of communion with heretics.
        > >
        > >The accusations seem to be serious to many who know them. If the
        > >Synod believes the accusations are unfounded, should it not explain
        > >why it is so to the believers? We are all ready to listen and we
        all
        > >beg our pastors to respond. Why this silence? We need the
        conclusion
        > >of the judgement, not to condemn priests, but to show to us,
        > >believers, why their position is erroneous.
        > >
        > >I think that even those who did not separate from the Synod should
        > >know why those disturbing repeated cases of apparent communion with
        > >heretics are considered as insignificant.
        >
        >
        > Thank you for stating this so clearly.
        >
        > This makes the answer so simple as to be obvious to anyone.
        >
        > The reason that the Synod of the Church Abroad would not consider
        as valid
        > any accusations made against a bishop or other clergyman of the
        ROCOR for
        > serving with Serbians or New Calendarists based on the premise that
        they
        > are heretics--is simply because the Synod of the Church Abroad does
        not
        > consider the Serbians or New Calendarists to be heretics, and never
        has.
        >
        > The premise is false, so the accusation has no merit and must be
        dismissed.
        >
        > See the following Statement by Metropolitan Vitaly, back in 1986,
        when
        > there were no doubts about his being subject to undue influence
        because of
        > his frailty:
        >
        > "At the present time the majority of Local Orthodox Churches are
        wounded by
        > two terrible blows: the new calendar and ecumenism. However,
        > notwithstanding their calamitous predicament we dare not, and may
        the Lord
        > forbid us from doing so, declare them void of God's grace (emphasis
        > supplied)." (Nativity Epistle of Metropolitan Vitaly, Church Life,
        1986,
        > #11-12, p. 199)
        >
        > Now, that is the historical position of the Church Abroad.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > With love in Christ,
        >
        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      • vkozyreff
        Dear Father Alexander, bless. Thank you for answering and for expressing appreciation for clarity. My thirst for it is still not satisfied, however. I wrote:
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 1, 2002
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          Dear Father Alexander, bless.

          Thank you for answering and for expressing appreciation for clarity.
          My thirst for it is still not satisfied, however.

          I wrote: "I think that even those who did not separate from the Synod
          should know why those disturbing repeated cases of apparent communion
          with heretics are considered as insignificant".

          You replied: "the Church Abroad does not consider the Serbians or New
          Calendarists to be heretics, and never has".

          How can you state such a thing, knowing the message of Patriarch Paul
          to the Pope: «We cordially thank you for your kind invitation to come
          to Assisi on January 19, 1993, in order to address our Lord in a
          common prayer ... You communicated to us that this prayer will be
          attended by representatives from the Roman Church and from other
          European confessions, as well as by representatives from Islam and
          other great religions ... You can be assured, Your Holiness, that
          during this day, given by God, we will be in communion of prayer with
          You ...». Is this not blatant ecumenism in its most naked form? Is
          this not what our Church has anathematised?

          Moreover, what I had in mind was not as much the communion with the
          Serbian Church, as the communion of Vl Ambrose with the MP, which is
          not less ecumenist and did evidently never renounce sergianism (see
          quotation of the MP in my message of yesterday: "The
          term "sergianism" has been used in the polemics lead by
          representatives of the ROCOR with the MP and expresses an attitude
          that is hostile to the actions of metropolitan Sergius (subsequently
          Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia)...The use of the
          term "sergianism" in the discussions is undesirable, as it is not
          neutral, and in itself expresses a certain position").

          In conclusion, dear Father Alexander, I am still more confused. So
          many serious contradictions in our circles can express only a state
          of deep spiritual disintegration that only sincere search for the
          truth can heal, in my opinion.

          I beg your prayers.

          Vladimir Kozyreff
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