Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth

Expand Messages
  • Rd. Constantine Wright
    ... But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also accomplished in many places by people s pressure. Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...> wrote:

      > true Russian Orthodox Church? You know perfectly well
      > that the recognition
      > of the Holy Zar Nikolas and His family as martirs was
      > done only by people's
      > pressure. If there was not such pressure they wouldn't
      > do it. Maybe I am an

      But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also
      accomplished in many places by people's pressure.
      Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the Russian Church,
      signed on to Florence and acknowledged it... but that
      didn't make the Russian Church of the time graceless and
      irredeemably fallen.

      In Christ,
      Rd. Constantine

      =====
      +----------------------------------------------------------+-------+
      |Reader Constantine Wright St. Lawrence Orthodox Church| |
      |PO Box 1457, Felton CA 95018 Patriarchate of Jerusalem| IC|XC |
      |----------------------------------------------------------| ----- |
      | CHURCH WEBPAGE: http://www.angelfire.com/zine/rocanews | NI|KA |
      | PERSONAL WEBPAGE: http://constans_wright.tripod.com | |
      +----------------------------------------------------------+-------+

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
      http://autos.yahoo.com
    • jsbaglien
      ... Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a translation of the text?
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
        wrote:

        > (Patriarch Alexei II) also took upon himself full responsibility
        > and repented for all actions of himself, and his predecessors in
        > the compromises they made with the Soviet atheistic government.

        Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
        information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
        translation of the text?

        James Baglien
        Corvallis, OR
      • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
        ... Sure, James. Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II, given to Izvestia No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled Patriarch Alexis
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Regarding:



          >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
          >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
          >translation of the text?
          >
          >James Baglien
          >Corvallis, OR

          Sure, James.

          Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II,
          given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch Alexis II:
          -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":

          =============================


          Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself responsibility
          for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the good, but
          also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."

          Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:

          Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
          Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into proper
          relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in the
          Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the Church to the
          interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are incorrect
          from the point of view of the Church."

          And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow Patriarchate
          during the time of the oppression of the Church:

          Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence, forced
          passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the Church
          leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not only
          before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and
          prayers."




          With love in Christ,

          Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical Patriarchate. In Christ Fr.
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 16, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

            > And, for those in the HOCNA who might be interested--the ROCOR had New
            > Calendar parishes and concelebrated openly with New Calendarists at the
            > time that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers joined the ROCOR and throughout
            > the entire time that they were in ROCOR.
            >
            A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was
            received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical
            Patriarchate.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Hristofor
            I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion or passion,
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear
              postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion
              or passion, despite numerous provocations to the contrary.

              A general observation may be made that many believers, whether converts or
              "cradle Orthodox" (myself included) know very little about the Church (the
              group of unschooled unfortunately includes some of the clergy; most of the
              schism ringleaders have never studied at Seminary). Especially little seems
              to be known about the canons and how the Church hierarchy functions. Often
              writings or statements of deceased hierarchs are taken out of context to
              support one point of view, completing ignoring other writings (which might
              very well indict those who are trying to "save" Orthodoxy). With the advent
              of the Internet, as we well know from secular life, anyone can post just
              about anything and it is taken as Gospel Truth, just because it appeared
              on the Net'. I am glad that a respected clergyman such as Fr Alexander (and
              others) participate and correct these mistakes, which may of course be
              simply errors and not purposely posted as "disinformation."

              I am also amazed to see what may be called a spirit of sectism (dukh
              sektantsva) creeping into certain postings. It seems that many whom we
              thought were with us yesterday have somehow been infected by this virus and
              are no longer with us.

              My main comment is taking issue with 2 statements posted by Joseph.

              >There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
              >All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
              >ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
              >recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
              >Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now.

              I don't think that it is appropriate to cast doubt in people's minds about
              the legitimacy of Fr A's postings by saying "All of the quotes ... (if
              true)". Instead, be thankful to him for replying so quickly with so many
              citations that we all can benefit from. Do you honestly believe that he sat
              and down and composed a bunch of phony citations and quotes? And what
              exactly is meant by "could be just a huge mistake"? The quotes were made by
              many respected hierarchs through the life of the ROCA. Yes, individuals may
              have made mistakes; clergymen are not without sin. However, I believe that
              when the bishops sit down and call upon the Holy Spirit to guide them in
              their decision making, most times in front of the Miraculous Kursk ikon,
              that they are truly seeking to make the best decisions and are not
              purposely attempting to lead people astray, don't you? If you do not
              believe this and if you believe that everything over the past 80 years was
              just a huge mistake, what on earth are you doing in the ROCA, if you are
              indeed a member? I am afraid that you know not what you write; this seems
              to me a very serious accusation.

              >So
              >any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
              >after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
              >big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
              >catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
              >this is a group of exiled bishops. Lets not make too
              >much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
              >ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
              >Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
              >century is something to take with a grain of salt.

              Really? Odd, how this "group of exiled bishops" provided at least 2 saints
              (to our knowledge) to the choir of saints. Odd, how this "big mistake"
              Church has been blessed with the Kursk Icon, the renewed icon of the Mother
              of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow", the Iverskaya Icon, the St Nicholas Icon,
              to name just a few blessings. Odd, how these exiles were always looked up
              to through the Iron Curtain. Odd, how a monk at St Sergius Lavra asked me
              to send a message to "Religous Books for Russia" to stop sending books by
              Frs Meyendorf and Schmeman and to instead send books by Vl Averky and Fr M
              Pomazansky to the then USSR. Odd, how modern saints from other Orthodox
              jurisdictions (such as St Justin Popovic and St Nikolaj Velimirovic to name
              a few) had great respect for the ROCA. (Oh sorry, since they come from the
              Serbian Church, you may take their opinions with a grain of salt as well.)
              Could you clarify--with citations--what you mean by "despite 11 separate
              anathemas by the Ecumenical Church." It is my recollection that the
              Ecumenical Patriarchate changed the calendar. How could they then go and
              issue 11 anathemas against something they had done? The monasteries of Mt
              Athos are under the omophor of the EP. Although they are Old Calendar, they
              still commemorate the EP. Are they also not Orthodox?

              >Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
              >only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
              >like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
              >next step- a step that will not be taken.

              Don't think it is appropriate language to say that Patriarch Alexei should
              "be busted". Despite your opinion, he still is a cergyman and deserves to
              be treated with respect.

              Sincerely,

              Hristofor

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joseph Digrande
              Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch. Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the crowd
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                rank of a simple monk."
                And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                after this he is not only considered banned but also
                completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                And this deception was successful for in those days
                that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                imprisonment,,,"
                Joseph digrande
                --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                >
                > v
                > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                > him
                > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                > hierarchs
                > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                > and
                > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                > wrong
                >
                >
                > joseph digrande
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >


                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                http://autos.yahoo.com
              • VJB
                Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod? v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod?

                  v
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Joseph Digrande
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                  Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                  Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                  knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                  crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                  Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                  On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                  "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                  the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                  and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                  laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                  his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                  cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                  rank of a simple monk."
                  And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                  without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                  the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                  the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                  promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                  exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                  Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                  on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                  deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                  he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                  Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                  the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                  after this he is not only considered banned but also
                  completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                  And this deception was successful for in those days
                  that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                  His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                  the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                  imprisonment,,,"
                  Joseph digrande
                  --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                  > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                  > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                  > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                  > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                  > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                  >
                  > v
                  > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                  > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                  > him
                  > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                  > hierarchs
                  > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                  > and
                  > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                  > wrong
                  >
                  >
                  > joseph digrande
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                  http://autos.yahoo.com


                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  ADVERTISEMENT



                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joseph Digrande
                  Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                    exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                    how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                    Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                    Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                    Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                    what I can find/ joseph digrande
                    --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                    > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                    > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                    >
                    > v
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Joseph Digrande
                    > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                    > Restraineth
                    >
                    >
                    > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                    > Arch.
                    > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                    > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                    > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                    > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                    > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                    > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                    > into
                    > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                    > renovationism,
                    > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                    > and
                    > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                    > of
                    > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                    > on
                    > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                    > the
                    > rank of a simple monk."
                    > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                    > monastery
                    > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                    > to
                    > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                    > and
                    > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                    > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                    > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                    > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                    > trampled
                    > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                    > Church. He
                    > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                    > that
                    > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                    > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                    > canons of
                    > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                    > after this he is not only considered banned but
                    > also
                    > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                    > And this deception was successful for in those
                    > days
                    > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                    > of
                    > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                    > beyond
                    > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                    > imprisonment,,,"
                    > Joseph digrande
                    > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                    > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                    > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                    > submitted
                    > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                    > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                    > his
                    > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                    > >
                    > > v
                    > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                    > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                    > disobeyed
                    > > him
                    > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                    > > hierarchs
                    > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                    > Sergius
                    > > and
                    > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                    > > wrong
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > joseph digrande
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                    > http://autos.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at
                    > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    > Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                    http://autos.yahoo.com
                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                    ... This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist. There
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Joseph Digrande wrote:

                      >Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                      >Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                      >knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                      >crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                      >Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                      >On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                      >"The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                      >the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                      >and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                      >laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                      >his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                      >cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                      >rank of a simple monk."
                      >And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                      >without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                      >the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                      >the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                      >promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                      >exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                      >Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                      >on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                      >deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                      >he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                      >Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                      >the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                      >after this he is not only considered banned but also
                      >completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                      >And this deception was successful for in those days
                      >that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                      >His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                      >the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                      >imprisonment,,,"

                      This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the
                      truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist.
                      There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the formal repentance of Metropolitan
                      Sergius and the full and accurate description was published many times,
                      including in early ROCOR sources, such as Gleb Rahr's "Subjugated Church."

                      And what is clear is that Patriarch Tikhon accepted Metr. Sergius's
                      repentance and personally assisted in vesting him in full vestments of a
                      Metropolitan and immediately concelebrated Divine Liturgy with him.

                      There are obvious errors in the narrative presented by Joseph--such as "he
                      entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging forgiveness" when the
                      actual procedure of repentance was that the penitent would, inside the
                      Church, make three full prostrations, asking forgiveness of the Patriarch,
                      the clergy, and the faithful.

                      The most telling error is that it states that Patriarch Tikhon, at that
                      time, "lived in imprisonment," when it is known that Patriarch Tikhon was
                      released from imprisonment in July of 1923 (he had been arrested in May of
                      1922). After his release in July of 1923 and up to his repose in April,
                      1924 patriarch Tikhon was not restricted in his ecclesiastical activity--he
                      traveled freely aroung Moscow, serving at the various Churches and was
                      extremely active in sermons, letters, appeals, etc., so that it is
                      ridiculous to state that "his voice could scarcely be heard."

                      Joseph later posted regarding Metropolitan Sergius appointment:

                      >Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                      >exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                      >how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                      >Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                      >Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                      >Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                      >what I can find/ joseph digrande

                      First of all, Metr. Sergius was not appointed "vicar" at Nizny Novgorod.
                      That was not a vicariate, but a major Metropolitan See, where he was
                      appointed Ruling Bishop.

                      Historical evidence is plentiful on this issue.

                      Metr. Sergius was in the Renovationist schism from the middle of 1922 to
                      the beginning of 1924.

                      Immediately after his repentance, Metr. Sergius was appointed by Patriarch
                      Tikhon to the see of Nizhny Novgorod (the exact date was March 18/31, 1924).

                      Less than two months later, on May 8/21, 1924, Patriarch Tikhon and his
                      Patriarchal Synod issued a Decree about the reorganization of the Higher
                      Church Administration and the appointment of the members of the Holy Synod
                      and of the Higher Church Council.

                      Reading from the actual Ukaze:

                      "Appointed as permanent members of the Holy Synod under the chairmanship of
                      Patriarch Tikhon are:

                      Metr. Sergius of Nizhny-Novgorod
                      Metr. Kyrill of Kazan
                      Metr. Tikhon of the Urals
                      Metr. Seraphim of Tver'
                      Metr. Peter of Krutitsk" . . .

                      . . .and 6 more Archbishops (including Archbishop Joseph of Rostov (later
                      Metropolitan of Petrograd) and one other Bishop.

                      So it is perfectly clear that not only was Metr. Sergius **not** removed
                      from serving and reduced to the status of a simple monk, as the fabrication
                      depicts, but actually he was given a criitically important see and
                      appointed the **ranking member** of the Holy Synod by Patriarch Tikhon.




                      With love in Christ,

                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                    • VJB
                      He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist. v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist.

                        v
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Joseph Digrande
                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:41 PM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                        Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                        exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                        how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                        Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                        Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                        Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                        what I can find/ joseph digrande
                        --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                        > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                        > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                        >
                        > v
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Joseph Digrande
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                        > Restraineth
                        >
                        >
                        > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                        > Arch.
                        > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                        > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                        > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                        > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                        > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                        > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                        > into
                        > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                        > renovationism,
                        > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                        > and
                        > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                        > of
                        > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                        > on
                        > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                        > the
                        > rank of a simple monk."
                        > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                        > monastery
                        > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                        > to
                        > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                        > and
                        > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                        > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                        > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                        > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                        > trampled
                        > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                        > Church. He
                        > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                        > that
                        > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                        > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                        > canons of
                        > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                        > after this he is not only considered banned but
                        > also
                        > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                        > And this deception was successful for in those
                        > days
                        > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                        > of
                        > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                        > beyond
                        > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                        > imprisonment,,,"
                        > Joseph digrande
                        > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                        > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                        > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                        > submitted
                        > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                        > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                        > his
                        > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                        > >
                        > > v
                        > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                        > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                        > disobeyed
                        > > him
                        > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                        > > hierarchs
                        > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                        > Sergius
                        > > and
                        > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                        > > wrong
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > joseph digrande
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                        > http://autos.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > ADVERTISEMENT
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at
                        > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                        > Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                        http://autos.yahoo.com


                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT



                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • joeswaydyn2000
                        Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the 1920 s communicated
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that
                          Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the
                          1920's communicated with Sergius, who declined to answer questions
                          about the diaspora because he was unaware of what was going on. That
                          the Patriarch was a prisoner in the Monastery there is no doubt. But
                          it would strike me as odd that something of this magnitude is not
                          even documented in more than one source; all my sources on the
                          history of the ROCA indicate that Sergius was considered a Bishop
                          until 1927, when after ten months of imprisonment and torture, he
                          capitulated to the Communists.- JS

                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@y...> wrote:
                          > Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                          > exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                          > how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                          > Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                          > Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                          > Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                          > what I can find/ joseph digrande
                          > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                          > > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                          > > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                          > >
                          > > v
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Joseph Digrande
                          > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                          > > Restraineth
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                          > > Arch.
                          > > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                          > > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                          > > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                          > > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                          > > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                          > > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                          > > into
                          > > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                          > > renovationism,
                          > > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                          > > and
                          > > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                          > > of
                          > > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                          > > on
                          > > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                          > > the
                          > > rank of a simple monk."
                          > > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                          > > monastery
                          > > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                          > > to
                          > > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                          > > and
                          > > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                          > > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                          > > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                          > > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                          > > trampled
                          > > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                          > > Church. He
                          > > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                          > > that
                          > > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                          > > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                          > > canons of
                          > > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                          > > after this he is not only considered banned but
                          > > also
                          > > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                          > > And this deception was successful for in those
                          > > days
                          > > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                          > > of
                          > > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                          > > beyond
                          > > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                          > > imprisonment,,,"
                          > > Joseph digrande
                          > > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                          > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                          > > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                          > > submitted
                          > > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                          > > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                          > > his
                          > > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                          > > >
                          > > > v
                          > > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                          > > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                          > > disobeyed
                          > > > him
                          > > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                          > > > hierarchs
                          > > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                          > > Sergius
                          > > > and
                          > > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                          > > > wrong
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > joseph digrande
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > > > removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                          > > http://autos.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > > ADVERTISEMENT
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Archives located at
                          > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                          > > Terms of Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > > removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                          > http://autos.yahoo.com
                        • frmarkg
                          Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT Sender: Orthodox Christianity From: Mr. Vincent Niemann
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT
                            Sender: Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@...>
                            From: "Mr. Vincent Niemann" <GreekOrthodoxTV@...>
                            Subject: New Rules For This List.

                            One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher Socrates and
                            said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"

                            "Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything
                            I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter
                            Test."

                            "Triple filter?"

                            "That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about
                            my friend it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what
                            you're going to say.

                            That's why I call it the triple filter test. The first filter
                            is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about
                            to tell me is true?"

                            "No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."

                            "All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's
                            true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of
                            goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend
                            something good?"

                            "No, on the contrary..."

                            "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad
                            about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass
                            the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of
                            usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my friend going to
                            be useful to me?"

                            "No, not really."

                            "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is
                            neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at
                            all?"
                          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                            ... This is not fully historically accurate. First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was **Meshcherskiy**, not Isiderskiy. Secondly,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              VJB wrote:

                              >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim
                              >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                              >


                              This is not fully historically accurate.

                              First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was
                              **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."

                              Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                              Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June 3/16, 1922 to October
                              20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop of Nizhny Novgorod.
                              From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April 13, 1923--he was the
                              Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April 13, 1924 to September,
                              1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.

                              The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny Novgorod was vacant from
                              June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr. Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                              appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.




                              With love in Christ,

                              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            • goossir
                              Dear Father Alexander, Bless! About Alexis II s repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his comments on ROCOR Bishops Council response to MP s fraternal
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Father Alexander, Bless!

                                About Alexis II's repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his
                                comments on ROCOR Bishops' Council response to MP's fraternal letter:
                                in http://www.ripnet.org/besieged/rparocora.htm, :

                                "--About the accusations against us of so-called sergianism I want to
                                say that it was necessary to live here in the motherland in order to
                                understand that this is an artificial accusation and artificial
                                pretext that they are trying to exaggerate so as simply to prevent
                                reunification. In the main it deals with the letter by Metropolitan
                                Sergius in 1927, the so-called Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius.
                                By this letter he wanted to show the authorities, who, I remind you,
                                had imprisoned and shot clergy and believers, that the church was not
                                a counterrevolutionary organization. Thus the letter said: "we want
                                to be Orthodox and we want to realize the Soviet Union as our
                                motherland, whose joys are our joys and whose sorrows are our
                                sorrows." Most often it is these words that evoke the far-fetched
                                criticism: "What kind of joys can be in common with an atheist
                                state?" But the letter is not talking about an atheist state; it is
                                talking about the motherland, although in 1927 this concept was
                                almost forgotten.

                                This was a clever step by which Metropolitan Sergius tried to save
                                the church and clergy. In declaring that the members of the church
                                want to see themselves as a part of the motherland and want to share
                                her joys and sorrows, he tried to show to those who were persecuting
                                the church and who were destroying it that we, the children of the
                                church, want to be loyal citizens so that the affiliation of people
                                with the church would not place them outside the law. So this is a
                                far-fetched accusation."

                                SO-CALLED SERGIANISM! Alexis II finds it clever the step taken by
                                Met Sergius (a pact with satan to save to church) - no regrets!

                                If his repentence came after the above declaration, then I could
                                understand but it is exactly the reverse and, to top it all in
                                reacting to our Synod.
                                This cynicism only shows that he thinks we are idiots.

                                Please forgive me for what could seem as a cutting tone. There is
                                another interview published at the beginning of this year, that I
                                will post the momment I can put my hand on it, where Pat Alexis II
                                justifies sergianism in even better words.

                                May I ask a question - why are you so kind, understanding and
                                compassionate with the MP, while, at the same time, full of anger
                                against your own brothers who questionned some of our bishops about
                                their sincerity in keeping the true path of our Church?

                                Yours in Christ,

                                Irina Pahlen


                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                wrote:
                                > Regarding:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                                > >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                                > >translation of the text?
                                > >
                                > >James Baglien
                                > >Corvallis, OR
                                >
                                > Sure, James.
                                >
                                > Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP,
                                Alexis II,
                                > given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch
                                Alexis II:
                                > -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":
                                >
                                > =============================
                                >
                                >
                                > Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself
                                responsibility
                                > for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the
                                good, but
                                > also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."
                                >
                                > Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:
                                >
                                > Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
                                > Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into
                                proper
                                > relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in
                                the
                                > Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the
                                Church to the
                                > interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are
                                incorrect
                                > from the point of view of the Church."
                                >
                                > And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow
                                Patriarchate
                                > during the time of the oppression of the Church:
                                >
                                > Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence,
                                forced
                                > passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the
                                Church
                                > leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not
                                only
                                > before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding,
                                and
                                > prayers."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > With love in Christ,
                                >
                                > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                              • Kiril Bart
                                Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov (comunists leader) was killed. Subdeacon Kirill ...
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                  town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                  (comunists leader) was killed.
                                  Subdeacon Kirill
                                  --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > VJB wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                  > Archbishop Evdokim
                                  > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                  >
                                  > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                  > bishop Evdokim was
                                  > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                  >
                                  > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                  > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                  > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                  > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                  > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                  > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                  > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                  > 13, 1923--he was the
                                  > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                  > 13, 1924 to September,
                                  > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                  >
                                  > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                  > Novgorod was vacant from
                                  > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                  > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                  > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > With love in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
                                  http://health.yahoo.com
                                • VJB
                                  True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30 s to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee. v ... From: Kiril Bart To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 24, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30's to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee.

                                    v
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Kiril Bart
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:05 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                                    Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                    town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                    (comunists leader) was killed.
                                    Subdeacon Kirill
                                    --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > VJB wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                    > Archbishop Evdokim
                                    > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                    >
                                    > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                    > bishop Evdokim was
                                    > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                    >
                                    > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                    > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                    > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                    > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                    > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                    > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                    > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                    > 13, 1923--he was the
                                    > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                    > 13, 1924 to September,
                                    > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                    >
                                    > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                    > Novgorod was vacant from
                                    > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                    > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                    > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > With love in Christ,
                                    >
                                    > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
                                    http://health.yahoo.com


                                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    ADVERTISEMENT



                                    Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.