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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth

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  • Joseph Digrande
    There is another point to Father Alexander s post: All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 14, 2002
      There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
      All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
      ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
      recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
      Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now. In effect for
      the ROCOR that Father Alexander portrays- being a
      Mason like Meletius is of no importance with regard to
      the question of grace and so Alexi being in the KGB is
      of no great importance either.
      Another point he omits: the Catacomb Church as of 1933
      was in open theological warfare with the MP- some of
      their major hierarchs said they had no grace(St.
      Joseph of Petrograd)and forbid them from entering
      their Churches. They compared them to the
      Renovationists of which many were former members. So
      any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
      after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
      big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
      catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
      this is a group of exiled bishops. Lets not make too
      much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
      ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
      Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
      century is something to take with a grain of salt.
      Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
      only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
      like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
      next step- a step that will not be taken.
      Also Sergius in 27 was devoid of the grace to even
      serve. St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
      repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
      and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
      said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
      his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong


      joseph digrande
      --- "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...> wrote:
      > Dear Fr. Alexander,
      > I am wondering why are you trying so eagerly to
      > convince us that the MP is a
      > true Russian Orthodox Church? You know perfectly
      > well that the recognition
      > of the Holy Zar Nikolas and His family as martirs
      > was done only by people's
      > pressure. If there was not such pressure they
      > wouldn't do it. Maybe I am an
      > old fashined but I still stick to the Apostolic and
      > Ecumenical Council's
      > rules which fill me witl a lot of doubts with
      > regards to your arguments in
      > favour of MP.
      > With love in Christ,
      > Fr. George
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
      > <lebedeff@...>
      > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:38 AM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth
      >
      >
      > > Reader John should be commended for his wonderful
      > presentation of the
      > > meaning of the last Emperor of Russia, St.
      > Nicholas ast "He who
      > retaineth."
      > >
      > > However, the conclusions he reaches are totally
      > fallacious.
      > >
      > > He writes:
      > >
      > >
      > > > > That the pseudo church, the MP, questions
      > whether or not this man,
      > > > > one of the greatest saints of all time, is
      > indeed a passion bearer,
      > > > > is a testimony to their spiritual bankruptcy.
      > >
      > > First of all, the Moscow Patriarchate did glorify
      > St. Nicholas as a
      > > Passion-Bearer, so John's premise is false--if
      > they glorified him as among
      > > the Saints, how can they question his
      > glorification?
      > >
      > > Secondly, never has the Russian Orthodox Church
      > Outside of Russia, in any
      > > official pronouncement, called the MP a "pseudo
      > church," or one that is
      > > devoid of grace.
      > >
      > > Quite the contrary. In its official Epistle of
      > 1933, specifically
      > dedicated
      > > to express with outmost clarity the view of the
      > Church Abroad to the
      > > actions of Metropolitan Sergius, six years after
      > his "Declaration," the
      > > Moscow Patriarchate is **never** called a false
      > Church--and Metropolitan
      > > Sergius is explicitly called "the de facto Head of
      > the Russian Church,"
      > and
      > > is praised for his attempts to give the Church
      > legal status under the
      > > Communist regime.
      > >
      > > Patriarch Alexei I is called by Metropolitan
      > Anastassy "the Head of the
      > > Russian Church," and the "Navigator of the Russian
      > Church" in the
      > Conciliar
      > > Epistles of the Church Abroad in 1946 and 1948.
      > >
      > > >Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko), writing in 1953
      > (when the situation of the
      > > >Moscow Patriarchate was very clear to all):
      > > >
      > > >"First of all, with our former steadfastness we
      > confess our unity with
      > the
      > > >Mother Church of Russia, now enslaved; our
      > faithfulness to Her historical
      > > >thousand-year path, and we send to Her our
      > cordial prayerful wishes that
      > > >She may be freed quickly from the domination of
      > the God-fighters. Without
      > > >any compromise, we condemn the collaboration of
      > Her current leaders in
      > the
      > > >USSR with the atheistic communist authorities.
      > But in a like manner, we
      > > >also condemn all self-created autonomies,
      > separatism, divisions, and
      > > >independent-mindedness. The essence of our Church
      > is not in divisiveness
      > > >and seeking power, but in keeping Divine truth in
      > Unity." ("Motifs of My
      > > >Life," p. 71).
      > > >
      > > >[Actually, in this book, "Motifs of My Life,"
      > published in Jordanville,
      > > >Archbishop Vitaly (who was a confessor, himself)
      > uses the term "Mother
      > > >Church" dozens of times to refer to the Church in
      > Russia. Yes, enslaved,
      > > >yes, downtrodden--but still the Mother Church.
      > >
      > > Here is what St. John of Shanghai and San
      > Francisco wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > "Does the Russian Church inside Russia need, would
      > she benefit from, the
      > > annihilation of the Church Outside of Russia and
      > her annexation to the
      > > Patriarchate? The Russian Orthodox Church Outside
      > of Russia is not
      > > spiritually separated from her suffering Mother.
      > She offers up prayers for
      > > her, preserves her spiritual and material wealth,
      > and in due time she will
      > > unite with her, when the reasons for their
      > disunity shall have vanished.
      > > And there is no doubt that within Russia also many
      > hierarchs, clergy, and
      > > laymen are with us and would themselves be happy
      > to act as we do if they
      > > were able."
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >And, a little more clarity on the opinion of
      > Metropolitan Anthony on
      > > >Metropolitan Sergius (in personal letters,
      > written after the
      > "Declaration"):
      > > >
      > > >"Metropolitan Sergius has scandalized humself: in
      > church the people
      > yelled
      > > >at him: "Traitor, Judas!" and chased him out,
      > tearing off his
      > > >vestments--Evlogy has stopped commemorating him
      > and doesn't know whom he
      > > >can stick to now. Nevertheless, I feel sorry for
      > Metropolitan Sergius: he
      > > >has no willpower, but his mind is clear and his
      > heart is good." (Letters
      > > >of Metropolitan Anthony, p. 221).
      > > >
      > > >"I feel sorry for poor Most Reverend Metropolitan
      > Sergius, who was
      > reviled
      > > >and whistled at in a Moscow church--that is, in
      > the temple; he is, of
      > > >course, not as he was characterized by the
      > revilers, although the last
      > > >three years he has acted unwisely--he outsmarted
      > himself." (Ibid.)
      > >
      > >
      > > Let us look at the book, entitled "Motives of My
      > Life," by Archbishop
      > > Vitaly (Maximenko), published at Jordanville in
      > 1955.
      > >
      > > Now, no one could possibly claim that Archbishop
      > Vitaly, the Missionary of
      > > Pochaev and the Carpathian Moutains, Confessor for
      > the Faith (he was
      > > sentenced to death and was minutes away from
      > execution in 1918), and the
      > > man chosen by Metropolitan Anthony to be
      > consecrated bishop (in 1934) and
      > > sent to North America to heal the rift among the
      > various jurisdictions in
      > > America, was "outside of the mainstream" of the
      > Russian Orthodox Church
      > > Outside of Russia. He was and is greatly revered
      > as the "Avva," and was
      > > instrumental in making the Jordanville Monastery
      > and Seminary what they
      > are
      > > today.
      > >
      > > The book contains an "imprimatur," on the back of
      > the title page:
      > "Printing
      > > permitted. Spiritual Censor Archpriest Michael
      > Pomazansky."
      > >
      > > The book was published at the Monastery in its
      > Second, Revised Edition
      > (the
      > > one I have before me) in 1955, when the Monastery
      > was
      === message truncated ===


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    • VJB
      Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
        Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch personally returned him the staff acknowledging his episcopacy. Let's be accurate.

        v
        St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
        repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
        and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
        said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
        his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong


        joseph digrande



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
        ... They are all documented as to source--anyone can easily verify these quotes. ... The ROCOR absolutely considered Meletios (Metaxakis) to have grace, which
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
          Joseph Digrande wrote:

          >There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
          >All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
          >ture)

          They are all documented as to source--anyone can easily verify these quotes.



          >could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
          >recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
          >Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now. In effect for
          >the ROCOR that Father Alexander portrays- being a
          >Mason like Meletius is of no importance with regard to
          >the question of grace and so Alexi being in the KGB is
          >of no great importance either.

          The ROCOR absolutely considered Meletios (Metaxakis) to have grace, which
          is confirmed by the fact that Archbishop Anastassy (later Metropolitan),
          who was living in Constantinople from 1920-1924, commemorated Patriarch
          Meletios during his entire tenure there.

          Also, the Church Abroad sent two official representatives--Archbishop
          Anastassy and Archbishop Alexander to the "Pan-Orthodox Congress" called by
          Meletios in Constantinople in 1924--the one at which the calendar reform
          was proposed, among other significant reforms. The representatives of the
          Church Abroad participated as representatives of the entire Church of
          Russia at that Congress, since the Church in Russia was not free.



          >Another point he omits: the Catacomb Church as of 1933
          >was in open theological warfare with the MP- some of
          >their major hierarchs said they had no grace(St.
          >Joseph of Petrograd)and forbid them from entering
          >their Churches. They compared them to the
          >Renovationists of which many were former members. So
          >any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
          >after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
          >big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
          >catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
          >this is a group of exiled bishops.


          This makes no sense. First of all, there was **no** entity called "The
          Catacomb Church"--there were only individual bishops, clergy, and faithful
          who protested the Declaration of Metr. Sergius and broke communion with
          him. There were dozens, if not hundreds of groups of catacombniks--most of
          which had no knowledge of each other or communion with each other, and some
          had very dubious validity of orders. So--no one was authorized to speak for
          all of the catacombniks--and they had widely varying views on the presence
          of grace in Metropolitan Sergius' ecclesiastical organization.

          The Church Abroad, on the other hand, was the sole free part of the Russian
          Church--they only part able to speak freely to the world about the
          persecution of the Church in Soviet Russia.


          >Lets not make too
          >much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
          >ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
          >Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
          >century is something to take with a grain of salt.

          The Church Abroad concelebrated with New Calendarists and those Old
          Calendarists who concelebrated with New Calendarists throughout the entire
          time of the existense of the New Calendar and up to this day.

          Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) went himself to Bucharest to take part
          in the enthronization of the New Calendar Patriarch Myron of Romania and
          celebrated with New Calendarists all the way to the end of his life, as did
          Metropolitan Anastassy.

          New Calendarist Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) of the Antiochian Archdiocese
          here was consecrated jointly by ROCOR Bishop Vitaly (Maximenko) and New
          Calendar Bishop Athenagoras (later Patriarch) of the Greek Archdiocese.

          In 1961, the ROCOR published an Encyclical in which it explicitly stated
          that New Calendarists had grace.

          And, for those in the HOCNA who might be interested--the ROCOR had New
          Calendar parishes and concelebrated openly with New Calendarists at the
          time that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers joined the ROCOR and throughout
          the entire time that they were in ROCOR.



          >Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
          >only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
          >like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
          >next step- a step that will not be taken.


          This is again simply historically inaccurate. In fact, exactly the opposite
          took place.

          When Patriarch Tikhon was released from imprisonment (after being required
          to express his support of the New Calendar as a condition of his release),
          many former Renovationist bishops repented, including Metropolitan Sergius,
          and asked to be received back.

          A special order of penitential reception was developed.

          The repenting bishop would, while wearing just the simple undercassock
          (podriasnik) be led into the Church just before Divine Liturgy, where
          Patriarch Tikhon and any other concelebrating bishops and clergy were
          already vested and waiting on the ambo.

          The repenting bishop would, in front of the Patriarch, the clergy, and all
          of the people, would make three full prostration, asking forgiveness of the
          Patriarch, the clergy, and the people.

          After this, the Patriarch would himself lead the repenting bishop into the
          altar, where the repenting bishop would vest in full episcopal vestments
          and would concelebrate with the Patriarch at the Divine Liturgy.

          This is exactly what happened with Metropolitan Sergius--after which the
          Patriarch assigned him as Ruling Bishop of Nizhny-Novgorod--an important see.

          Metropolitan Sergius was never deposed, defrocked, or retirned to the
          status of a simple monk. He was, instead, a Ruling Bishop under Patriarch
          Tikhon until the latter's repose, and then he was appointed as the third
          successor Deputy Locum Tenens by Metropolitan Peter, who himself had been
          appointed the third successor Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal Throne by
          Patriarch Tikhon.


          >Also Sergius in 27 was devoid of the grace to even
          >serve. St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
          >repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
          >and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
          >said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
          >his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong
          >

          Absolutely incorrect. See above.

          Metropolitan Sergius, after his repentance, was a Ruling Bishop in good
          standing under Patriarch Tikhon, and noone doubted the legitimacy of his
          succession as Deputy Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal Throne.




          With love in Christ,

          Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        • Rd. Constantine Wright
          ... But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also accomplished in many places by people s pressure. Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
            "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...> wrote:

            > true Russian Orthodox Church? You know perfectly well
            > that the recognition
            > of the Holy Zar Nikolas and His family as martirs was
            > done only by people's
            > pressure. If there was not such pressure they wouldn't
            > do it. Maybe I am an

            But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also
            accomplished in many places by people's pressure.
            Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the Russian Church,
            signed on to Florence and acknowledged it... but that
            didn't make the Russian Church of the time graceless and
            irredeemably fallen.

            In Christ,
            Rd. Constantine

            =====
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          • jsbaglien
            ... Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a translation of the text?
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
              wrote:

              > (Patriarch Alexei II) also took upon himself full responsibility
              > and repented for all actions of himself, and his predecessors in
              > the compromises they made with the Soviet atheistic government.

              Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
              information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
              translation of the text?

              James Baglien
              Corvallis, OR
            • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
              ... Sure, James. Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II, given to Izvestia No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled Patriarch Alexis
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
                Regarding:



                >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                >translation of the text?
                >
                >James Baglien
                >Corvallis, OR

                Sure, James.

                Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II,
                given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch Alexis II:
                -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":

                =============================


                Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself responsibility
                for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the good, but
                also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."

                Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:

                Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
                Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into proper
                relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in the
                Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the Church to the
                interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are incorrect
                from the point of view of the Church."

                And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow Patriarchate
                during the time of the oppression of the Church:

                Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence, forced
                passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the Church
                leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not only
                before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and
                prayers."




                With love in Christ,

                Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical Patriarchate. In Christ Fr.
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 16, 2002
                  On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

                  > And, for those in the HOCNA who might be interested--the ROCOR had New
                  > Calendar parishes and concelebrated openly with New Calendarists at the
                  > time that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers joined the ROCOR and throughout
                  > the entire time that they were in ROCOR.
                  >
                  A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was
                  received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical
                  Patriarchate.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Hristofor
                  I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion or passion,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
                    I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear
                    postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion
                    or passion, despite numerous provocations to the contrary.

                    A general observation may be made that many believers, whether converts or
                    "cradle Orthodox" (myself included) know very little about the Church (the
                    group of unschooled unfortunately includes some of the clergy; most of the
                    schism ringleaders have never studied at Seminary). Especially little seems
                    to be known about the canons and how the Church hierarchy functions. Often
                    writings or statements of deceased hierarchs are taken out of context to
                    support one point of view, completing ignoring other writings (which might
                    very well indict those who are trying to "save" Orthodoxy). With the advent
                    of the Internet, as we well know from secular life, anyone can post just
                    about anything and it is taken as Gospel Truth, just because it appeared
                    on the Net'. I am glad that a respected clergyman such as Fr Alexander (and
                    others) participate and correct these mistakes, which may of course be
                    simply errors and not purposely posted as "disinformation."

                    I am also amazed to see what may be called a spirit of sectism (dukh
                    sektantsva) creeping into certain postings. It seems that many whom we
                    thought were with us yesterday have somehow been infected by this virus and
                    are no longer with us.

                    My main comment is taking issue with 2 statements posted by Joseph.

                    >There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
                    >All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
                    >ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
                    >recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
                    >Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now.

                    I don't think that it is appropriate to cast doubt in people's minds about
                    the legitimacy of Fr A's postings by saying "All of the quotes ... (if
                    true)". Instead, be thankful to him for replying so quickly with so many
                    citations that we all can benefit from. Do you honestly believe that he sat
                    and down and composed a bunch of phony citations and quotes? And what
                    exactly is meant by "could be just a huge mistake"? The quotes were made by
                    many respected hierarchs through the life of the ROCA. Yes, individuals may
                    have made mistakes; clergymen are not without sin. However, I believe that
                    when the bishops sit down and call upon the Holy Spirit to guide them in
                    their decision making, most times in front of the Miraculous Kursk ikon,
                    that they are truly seeking to make the best decisions and are not
                    purposely attempting to lead people astray, don't you? If you do not
                    believe this and if you believe that everything over the past 80 years was
                    just a huge mistake, what on earth are you doing in the ROCA, if you are
                    indeed a member? I am afraid that you know not what you write; this seems
                    to me a very serious accusation.

                    >So
                    >any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
                    >after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
                    >big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
                    >catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
                    >this is a group of exiled bishops. Lets not make too
                    >much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
                    >ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
                    >Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
                    >century is something to take with a grain of salt.

                    Really? Odd, how this "group of exiled bishops" provided at least 2 saints
                    (to our knowledge) to the choir of saints. Odd, how this "big mistake"
                    Church has been blessed with the Kursk Icon, the renewed icon of the Mother
                    of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow", the Iverskaya Icon, the St Nicholas Icon,
                    to name just a few blessings. Odd, how these exiles were always looked up
                    to through the Iron Curtain. Odd, how a monk at St Sergius Lavra asked me
                    to send a message to "Religous Books for Russia" to stop sending books by
                    Frs Meyendorf and Schmeman and to instead send books by Vl Averky and Fr M
                    Pomazansky to the then USSR. Odd, how modern saints from other Orthodox
                    jurisdictions (such as St Justin Popovic and St Nikolaj Velimirovic to name
                    a few) had great respect for the ROCA. (Oh sorry, since they come from the
                    Serbian Church, you may take their opinions with a grain of salt as well.)
                    Could you clarify--with citations--what you mean by "despite 11 separate
                    anathemas by the Ecumenical Church." It is my recollection that the
                    Ecumenical Patriarchate changed the calendar. How could they then go and
                    issue 11 anathemas against something they had done? The monasteries of Mt
                    Athos are under the omophor of the EP. Although they are Old Calendar, they
                    still commemorate the EP. Are they also not Orthodox?

                    >Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
                    >only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
                    >like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
                    >next step- a step that will not be taken.

                    Don't think it is appropriate language to say that Patriarch Alexei should
                    "be busted". Despite your opinion, he still is a cergyman and deserves to
                    be treated with respect.

                    Sincerely,

                    Hristofor

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joseph Digrande
                    Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch. Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the crowd
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
                      Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                      Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                      knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                      crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                      Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                      On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                      "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                      the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                      and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                      laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                      his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                      cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                      rank of a simple monk."
                      And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                      without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                      the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                      the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                      promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                      exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                      Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                      on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                      deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                      he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                      Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                      the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                      after this he is not only considered banned but also
                      completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                      And this deception was successful for in those days
                      that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                      His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                      the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                      imprisonment,,,"
                      Joseph digrande
                      --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                      > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                      > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                      > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                      > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                      > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                      >
                      > v
                      > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                      > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                      > him
                      > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                      > hierarchs
                      > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                      > and
                      > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                      > wrong
                      >
                      >
                      > joseph digrande
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • VJB
                      Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod? v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                        Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod?

                        v
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Joseph Digrande
                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                        Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                        Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                        knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                        crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                        Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                        On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                        "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                        the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                        and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                        laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                        his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                        cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                        rank of a simple monk."
                        And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                        without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                        the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                        the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                        promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                        exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                        Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                        on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                        deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                        he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                        Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                        the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                        after this he is not only considered banned but also
                        completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                        And this deception was successful for in those days
                        that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                        His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                        the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                        imprisonment,,,"
                        Joseph digrande
                        --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                        > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                        > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                        > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                        > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                        > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                        >
                        > v
                        > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                        > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                        > him
                        > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                        > hierarchs
                        > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                        > and
                        > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                        > wrong
                        >
                        >
                        > joseph digrande
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joseph Digrande
                        Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                          Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                          exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                          how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                          Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                          Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                          Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                          what I can find/ joseph digrande
                          --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                          > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                          > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                          >
                          > v
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Joseph Digrande
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                          > Restraineth
                          >
                          >
                          > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                          > Arch.
                          > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                          > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                          > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                          > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                          > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                          > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                          > into
                          > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                          > renovationism,
                          > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                          > and
                          > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                          > of
                          > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                          > on
                          > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                          > the
                          > rank of a simple monk."
                          > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                          > monastery
                          > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                          > to
                          > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                          > and
                          > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                          > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                          > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                          > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                          > trampled
                          > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                          > Church. He
                          > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                          > that
                          > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                          > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                          > canons of
                          > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                          > after this he is not only considered banned but
                          > also
                          > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                          > And this deception was successful for in those
                          > days
                          > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                          > of
                          > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                          > beyond
                          > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                          > imprisonment,,,"
                          > Joseph digrande
                          > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                          > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                          > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                          > submitted
                          > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                          > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                          > his
                          > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                          > >
                          > > v
                          > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                          > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                          > disobeyed
                          > > him
                          > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                          > > hierarchs
                          > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                          > Sergius
                          > > and
                          > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                          > > wrong
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > joseph digrande
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > > removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
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                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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                        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                          ... This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist. There
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                            Joseph Digrande wrote:

                            >Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                            >Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                            >knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                            >crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                            >Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                            >On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                            >"The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                            >the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                            >and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                            >laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                            >his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                            >cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                            >rank of a simple monk."
                            >And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                            >without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                            >the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                            >the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                            >promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                            >exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                            >Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                            >on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                            >deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                            >he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                            >Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                            >the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                            >after this he is not only considered banned but also
                            >completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                            >And this deception was successful for in those days
                            >that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                            >His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                            >the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                            >imprisonment,,,"

                            This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the
                            truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist.
                            There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the formal repentance of Metropolitan
                            Sergius and the full and accurate description was published many times,
                            including in early ROCOR sources, such as Gleb Rahr's "Subjugated Church."

                            And what is clear is that Patriarch Tikhon accepted Metr. Sergius's
                            repentance and personally assisted in vesting him in full vestments of a
                            Metropolitan and immediately concelebrated Divine Liturgy with him.

                            There are obvious errors in the narrative presented by Joseph--such as "he
                            entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging forgiveness" when the
                            actual procedure of repentance was that the penitent would, inside the
                            Church, make three full prostrations, asking forgiveness of the Patriarch,
                            the clergy, and the faithful.

                            The most telling error is that it states that Patriarch Tikhon, at that
                            time, "lived in imprisonment," when it is known that Patriarch Tikhon was
                            released from imprisonment in July of 1923 (he had been arrested in May of
                            1922). After his release in July of 1923 and up to his repose in April,
                            1924 patriarch Tikhon was not restricted in his ecclesiastical activity--he
                            traveled freely aroung Moscow, serving at the various Churches and was
                            extremely active in sermons, letters, appeals, etc., so that it is
                            ridiculous to state that "his voice could scarcely be heard."

                            Joseph later posted regarding Metropolitan Sergius appointment:

                            >Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                            >exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                            >how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                            >Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                            >Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                            >Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                            >what I can find/ joseph digrande

                            First of all, Metr. Sergius was not appointed "vicar" at Nizny Novgorod.
                            That was not a vicariate, but a major Metropolitan See, where he was
                            appointed Ruling Bishop.

                            Historical evidence is plentiful on this issue.

                            Metr. Sergius was in the Renovationist schism from the middle of 1922 to
                            the beginning of 1924.

                            Immediately after his repentance, Metr. Sergius was appointed by Patriarch
                            Tikhon to the see of Nizhny Novgorod (the exact date was March 18/31, 1924).

                            Less than two months later, on May 8/21, 1924, Patriarch Tikhon and his
                            Patriarchal Synod issued a Decree about the reorganization of the Higher
                            Church Administration and the appointment of the members of the Holy Synod
                            and of the Higher Church Council.

                            Reading from the actual Ukaze:

                            "Appointed as permanent members of the Holy Synod under the chairmanship of
                            Patriarch Tikhon are:

                            Metr. Sergius of Nizhny-Novgorod
                            Metr. Kyrill of Kazan
                            Metr. Tikhon of the Urals
                            Metr. Seraphim of Tver'
                            Metr. Peter of Krutitsk" . . .

                            . . .and 6 more Archbishops (including Archbishop Joseph of Rostov (later
                            Metropolitan of Petrograd) and one other Bishop.

                            So it is perfectly clear that not only was Metr. Sergius **not** removed
                            from serving and reduced to the status of a simple monk, as the fabrication
                            depicts, but actually he was given a criitically important see and
                            appointed the **ranking member** of the Holy Synod by Patriarch Tikhon.




                            With love in Christ,

                            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                          • VJB
                            He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist. v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                              He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist.

                              v
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Joseph Digrande
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:41 PM
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                              Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                              exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                              how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                              Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                              Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                              Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                              what I can find/ joseph digrande
                              --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                              > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                              > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                              >
                              > v
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Joseph Digrande
                              > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                              > Restraineth
                              >
                              >
                              > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                              > Arch.
                              > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                              > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                              > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                              > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                              > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                              > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                              > into
                              > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                              > renovationism,
                              > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                              > and
                              > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                              > of
                              > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                              > on
                              > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                              > the
                              > rank of a simple monk."
                              > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                              > monastery
                              > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                              > to
                              > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                              > and
                              > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                              > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                              > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                              > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                              > trampled
                              > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                              > Church. He
                              > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                              > that
                              > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                              > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                              > canons of
                              > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                              > after this he is not only considered banned but
                              > also
                              > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                              > And this deception was successful for in those
                              > days
                              > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                              > of
                              > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                              > beyond
                              > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                              > imprisonment,,,"
                              > Joseph digrande
                              > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                              > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                              > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                              > submitted
                              > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                              > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                              > his
                              > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                              > >
                              > > v
                              > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                              > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                              > disobeyed
                              > > him
                              > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                              > > hierarchs
                              > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                              > Sergius
                              > > and
                              > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                              > > wrong
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > joseph digrande
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > > removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • joeswaydyn2000
                              Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the 1920 s communicated
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                                Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that
                                Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the
                                1920's communicated with Sergius, who declined to answer questions
                                about the diaspora because he was unaware of what was going on. That
                                the Patriarch was a prisoner in the Monastery there is no doubt. But
                                it would strike me as odd that something of this magnitude is not
                                even documented in more than one source; all my sources on the
                                history of the ROCA indicate that Sergius was considered a Bishop
                                until 1927, when after ten months of imprisonment and torture, he
                                capitulated to the Communists.- JS

                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@y...> wrote:
                                > Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                                > exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                                > how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                                > Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                                > Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                                > Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                                > what I can find/ joseph digrande
                                > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                > > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                                > > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                                > >
                                > > v
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Joseph Digrande
                                > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                                > > Restraineth
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                                > > Arch.
                                > > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                                > > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                                > > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                                > > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                                > > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                                > > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                                > > into
                                > > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                                > > renovationism,
                                > > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                                > > and
                                > > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                                > > of
                                > > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                                > > on
                                > > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                                > > the
                                > > rank of a simple monk."
                                > > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                                > > monastery
                                > > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                                > > to
                                > > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                                > > and
                                > > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                                > > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                                > > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                                > > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                                > > trampled
                                > > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                                > > Church. He
                                > > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                                > > that
                                > > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                                > > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                                > > canons of
                                > > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                                > > after this he is not only considered banned but
                                > > also
                                > > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                                > > And this deception was successful for in those
                                > > days
                                > > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                                > > of
                                > > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                                > > beyond
                                > > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                                > > imprisonment,,,"
                                > > Joseph digrande
                                > > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                                > > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                                > > submitted
                                > > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                                > > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                                > > his
                                > > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                                > > >
                                > > > v
                                > > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                                > > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                                > > disobeyed
                                > > > him
                                > > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                                > > > hierarchs
                                > > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                                > > Sergius
                                > > > and
                                > > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                                > > > wrong
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > joseph digrande
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > > > removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > __________________________________________________
                                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                                > > http://autos.yahoo.com
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                                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                > >
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                                > > Terms of Service.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > > removed]
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                              • frmarkg
                                Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT Sender: Orthodox Christianity From: Mr. Vincent Niemann
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                                  Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT
                                  Sender: Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@...>
                                  From: "Mr. Vincent Niemann" <GreekOrthodoxTV@...>
                                  Subject: New Rules For This List.

                                  One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher Socrates and
                                  said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"

                                  "Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything
                                  I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter
                                  Test."

                                  "Triple filter?"

                                  "That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about
                                  my friend it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what
                                  you're going to say.

                                  That's why I call it the triple filter test. The first filter
                                  is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about
                                  to tell me is true?"

                                  "No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."

                                  "All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's
                                  true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of
                                  goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend
                                  something good?"

                                  "No, on the contrary..."

                                  "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad
                                  about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass
                                  the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of
                                  usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my friend going to
                                  be useful to me?"

                                  "No, not really."

                                  "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is
                                  neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at
                                  all?"
                                • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  ... This is not fully historically accurate. First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was **Meshcherskiy**, not Isiderskiy. Secondly,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                                    VJB wrote:

                                    >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim
                                    >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                    >


                                    This is not fully historically accurate.

                                    First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was
                                    **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."

                                    Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                    Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June 3/16, 1922 to October
                                    20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                    From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April 13, 1923--he was the
                                    Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April 13, 1924 to September,
                                    1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.

                                    The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny Novgorod was vacant from
                                    June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr. Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                    appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.




                                    With love in Christ,

                                    Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                  • goossir
                                    Dear Father Alexander, Bless! About Alexis II s repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his comments on ROCOR Bishops Council response to MP s fraternal
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
                                      Dear Father Alexander, Bless!

                                      About Alexis II's repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his
                                      comments on ROCOR Bishops' Council response to MP's fraternal letter:
                                      in http://www.ripnet.org/besieged/rparocora.htm, :

                                      "--About the accusations against us of so-called sergianism I want to
                                      say that it was necessary to live here in the motherland in order to
                                      understand that this is an artificial accusation and artificial
                                      pretext that they are trying to exaggerate so as simply to prevent
                                      reunification. In the main it deals with the letter by Metropolitan
                                      Sergius in 1927, the so-called Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius.
                                      By this letter he wanted to show the authorities, who, I remind you,
                                      had imprisoned and shot clergy and believers, that the church was not
                                      a counterrevolutionary organization. Thus the letter said: "we want
                                      to be Orthodox and we want to realize the Soviet Union as our
                                      motherland, whose joys are our joys and whose sorrows are our
                                      sorrows." Most often it is these words that evoke the far-fetched
                                      criticism: "What kind of joys can be in common with an atheist
                                      state?" But the letter is not talking about an atheist state; it is
                                      talking about the motherland, although in 1927 this concept was
                                      almost forgotten.

                                      This was a clever step by which Metropolitan Sergius tried to save
                                      the church and clergy. In declaring that the members of the church
                                      want to see themselves as a part of the motherland and want to share
                                      her joys and sorrows, he tried to show to those who were persecuting
                                      the church and who were destroying it that we, the children of the
                                      church, want to be loyal citizens so that the affiliation of people
                                      with the church would not place them outside the law. So this is a
                                      far-fetched accusation."

                                      SO-CALLED SERGIANISM! Alexis II finds it clever the step taken by
                                      Met Sergius (a pact with satan to save to church) - no regrets!

                                      If his repentence came after the above declaration, then I could
                                      understand but it is exactly the reverse and, to top it all in
                                      reacting to our Synod.
                                      This cynicism only shows that he thinks we are idiots.

                                      Please forgive me for what could seem as a cutting tone. There is
                                      another interview published at the beginning of this year, that I
                                      will post the momment I can put my hand on it, where Pat Alexis II
                                      justifies sergianism in even better words.

                                      May I ask a question - why are you so kind, understanding and
                                      compassionate with the MP, while, at the same time, full of anger
                                      against your own brothers who questionned some of our bishops about
                                      their sincerity in keeping the true path of our Church?

                                      Yours in Christ,

                                      Irina Pahlen


                                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Regarding:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                                      > >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                                      > >translation of the text?
                                      > >
                                      > >James Baglien
                                      > >Corvallis, OR
                                      >
                                      > Sure, James.
                                      >
                                      > Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP,
                                      Alexis II,
                                      > given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch
                                      Alexis II:
                                      > -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":
                                      >
                                      > =============================
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself
                                      responsibility
                                      > for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the
                                      good, but
                                      > also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."
                                      >
                                      > Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:
                                      >
                                      > Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
                                      > Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into
                                      proper
                                      > relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in
                                      the
                                      > Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the
                                      Church to the
                                      > interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are
                                      incorrect
                                      > from the point of view of the Church."
                                      >
                                      > And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow
                                      Patriarchate
                                      > during the time of the oppression of the Church:
                                      >
                                      > Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence,
                                      forced
                                      > passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the
                                      Church
                                      > leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not
                                      only
                                      > before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding,
                                      and
                                      > prayers."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > With love in Christ,
                                      >
                                      > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    • Kiril Bart
                                      Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov (comunists leader) was killed. Subdeacon Kirill ...
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
                                        Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                        town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                        (comunists leader) was killed.
                                        Subdeacon Kirill
                                        --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > VJB wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                        > Archbishop Evdokim
                                        > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                        >
                                        > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                        > bishop Evdokim was
                                        > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                        >
                                        > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                        > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                        > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                        > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                        > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                        > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                        > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                        > 13, 1923--he was the
                                        > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                        > 13, 1924 to September,
                                        > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                        >
                                        > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                        > Novgorod was vacant from
                                        > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                        > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                        > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > With love in Christ,
                                        >
                                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


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                                      • VJB
                                        True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30 s to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee. v ... From: Kiril Bart To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 24, 2002
                                          True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30's to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee.

                                          v
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Kiril Bart
                                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:05 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                                          Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                          town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                          (comunists leader) was killed.
                                          Subdeacon Kirill
                                          --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > VJB wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                          > Archbishop Evdokim
                                          > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                          >
                                          > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                          > bishop Evdokim was
                                          > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                          >
                                          > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                          > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                          > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                          > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                          > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                          > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                          > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                          > 13, 1923--he was the
                                          > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                          > 13, 1924 to September,
                                          > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                          >
                                          > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                          > Novgorod was vacant from
                                          > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                          > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                          > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > With love in Christ,
                                          >
                                          > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


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