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Re: He Who Restraineth

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  • rdrjohn2000
    Dear Evgenia, I am honored with your request. Of course you may use the essay. However, I am going to post a more polished version in time for the vigil for
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 14, 2002
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      Dear Evgenia,

      I am honored with your request. Of course you may use the essay.
      However, I am going to post a more polished version in time for the
      vigil for the Royal Martyrs (I'll post it sometime Tuesday).

      In Christ,

      Rdr JOhn
      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Evelyn Hunter" <boots@a...> wrote:
      > Good Morning John,
      >
      > May I use your post in one of our parish newsletters? I would like
      > something to include in a write-up I want to do about Tsar
      Nicholas. Our
      > circulation is very small, but, I know some people (especially non-
      Russians)
      > would like a better grasp on this!
      >
      > May I?
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Evgenia
      >
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Jean-Claude Williams [mailto:cwilliams@i...]
      > > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 5:18 AM
      > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
      > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] He Who Restraineth
      > >
      > >
      > > Amen.
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: rdrjohn2000
      > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
      > > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:47 AM
      > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] He Who Restraineth
      > >
      > >
      > > Very few people realize the impact on Orthodoxy of the
      > > murder of the last Orthodox Emperor. Here is a way to visualize
      the
      > > impact. Think of the largest country in the world. Moving from
      West
      > > to East you leave St. Petersburg with its many churches, go to
      Moscow
      > > with its hundreds of churhes, cross the Urals, go thousands of
      > > miles across the vast steppes, through Siberia, Yakutsk to
      Kamchatka
      > > to the Pacific Ocean (and into Alaska for Orthodoxy had spread
      > > there). From Arkangelsk and Murmansk in the far North and all
      of its
      > > latitudes, South to Odessa on the Black Sea thence East past the
      > > Caspian Sea, past the Turkik regions, past the Aral sea, past
      Lake
      > > Baikhail to Vladivostok. Where ever there were people and
      villages
      > > there existed an Orthodox church. Thousands and thousands of
      them.
      > > Each of these churches had a consecrated altar with relics of
      the
      > > saints. In each Church there was a priest, some not educated,
      but
      > > all the more pious, who gave the holy mysteries to all who
      asked.
      > > Each parish priest instructed his flock and gave sermons about
      > > Christian living from the amvon. The totality of this my
      friends is
      > > purity. Great purity and strength beyond what we can comprehend
      > > today. And this strength is so vast; millions of believers and
      great
      > > spiritual power. In this pious Orthodox land there existed
      hundreds
      > > of monasteries. In this nation all the Orthodox Christians who
      > > attended church prayed for the salvation of the world and for
      all
      > > other Orthodox Christians.
      > >
      > > This great Emperor and his father not only attended to the
      spiritual
      > > needs of Russia; they were the defenders of Orthodoxy
      throughout the
      > > world. They protected Holy Mt. Athos and built St. Pantelaimon's
      > > Monastery,the Prophet Elias skete, and other monasteries. The
      Tsar
      > > protected Orthodox Christians in Eastern Europe by gently (and
      not so
      > > gently sometimes) reminding the heterodox that they will not
      allow
      > > Orthodox lands to be swallowed up by the corrupt Hapsburg
      Empire and
      > > other Western powers. They kept the militant and secular Turks
      of the
      > > Ottoman empire in check by letting it be clear that Holy Russia
      > > viewed the saving of Constantinople as a fundamental element of
      > > Russian foreign policy.
      > >
      > > They built Orthodox churches, monasteries and convents in the
      Holy
      > > Land and were the ONLY world power to defend Orthodoxy in
      Palastine.
      > >
      > > They built Orthodox churches here in America and defended the
      faith
      > > even as far from Moscow as New York, throughout all of
      Pennsylvania
      > > to Clevland and into Detroit. This was all before the Russian
      > > revolution.
      > >
      > > Now give this Christian emperor a faith so strong that he will
      look
      > > Satan and death in the face and not shirk or cower. That he
      will not
      > > bow down to Satan and make his pact with him, but would accept
      the
      > > pain and torture of a martyr's crown; not only for himself but
      for
      > > his family whom he loved and cherished. This was a Tsar who had
      all
      > > the riches in the world, who could have had all the Things of
      This
      > > World if only he had made his pact with the evil one. Yet he,
      St.
      > > Nicholas, was strong in his faith and the love of his country
      and the
      > > Holy Orthodox Faith. He gently accepted this great passion for
      > > himself and his family.
      > >
      > > St. Nicholas died for his people; for their sins and for the
      faith.
      > > That the pseudo church, the MP, questions whether or not this
      man,
      > > one of the greatest saints of all time, is indeed a passion
      bearer,
      > > is a testimony to their spiritual bankruptcy. After all, their
      > > hierarchs are only legitimate if Stalin is legitimate. Met.
      Sergius
      > > and all the MP Patriarchs received their apostolic succession
      from
      > > Lenin and Stalin. Why would they say anything else?
      > >
      > > Each of the thousands of Orthodox churches in Russia has been
      > > desecrated. Yes, some have been rebuilt. With blood money from
      > > murder, drug trafficing and smuggling. The churches have no
      doubt
      > > been reconsecrated by KGB agents wearing a saccos, mitre,
      panagia and
      > > great omophorion. But are these men dressed as bishops Orthodox?
      > >
      > > This is the impact of the murder and sacrifice of St Nicholas,
      The
      > > One Who Restraineth. Instead of great spiritual power throughout
      > > Russia, there is despair. There are churches that have been
      > > restored; some are beautiful no doubt, but their priests
      commemorate
      > > the spiritual descendents of the murderers of St. Nicholas.
      > >
      > > Mt. Athos has no earthly protector. There is spiritual chaos
      now on
      > > the Holy Mountain because the Orthodox champion no longer
      exists.
      > >
      > > The Holy Land has no Orthodox defender. The Orthodox holy
      sites are
      > > swallowed up by evil people.
      > >
      > > Orthodoxy in America is like unto the Tower of Babel with more
      > > jurisdictions than the Protestants.
      > >
      > > The One Who Restraineth is no more my friends. He suffered his
      > > earthly passion and now wears a martyr's crown in heaven. And
      that
      > > is why each one of us must fight the good fight, even unto
      > > the end, because there no one else today who restraineth Satan.
      > >
      > > Brothers and sisters in Christ, Let each one of us recommit
      ourselves
      > > to this spiritual fight for today there is no one who will
      fight for
      > > us.
      > >
      > > Holy Father, St. Nicholas, pray unto God for Us!
      > >
      > > In Christ,
      > >
      > > Rdr John
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Joseph Digrande
      There is another point to Father Alexander s post: All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 14, 2002
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        There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
        All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
        ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
        recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
        Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now. In effect for
        the ROCOR that Father Alexander portrays- being a
        Mason like Meletius is of no importance with regard to
        the question of grace and so Alexi being in the KGB is
        of no great importance either.
        Another point he omits: the Catacomb Church as of 1933
        was in open theological warfare with the MP- some of
        their major hierarchs said they had no grace(St.
        Joseph of Petrograd)and forbid them from entering
        their Churches. They compared them to the
        Renovationists of which many were former members. So
        any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
        after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
        big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
        catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
        this is a group of exiled bishops. Lets not make too
        much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
        ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
        Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
        century is something to take with a grain of salt.
        Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
        only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
        like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
        next step- a step that will not be taken.
        Also Sergius in 27 was devoid of the grace to even
        serve. St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
        repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
        and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
        said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
        his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong


        joseph digrande
        --- "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...> wrote:
        > Dear Fr. Alexander,
        > I am wondering why are you trying so eagerly to
        > convince us that the MP is a
        > true Russian Orthodox Church? You know perfectly
        > well that the recognition
        > of the Holy Zar Nikolas and His family as martirs
        > was done only by people's
        > pressure. If there was not such pressure they
        > wouldn't do it. Maybe I am an
        > old fashined but I still stick to the Apostolic and
        > Ecumenical Council's
        > rules which fill me witl a lot of doubts with
        > regards to your arguments in
        > favour of MP.
        > With love in Christ,
        > Fr. George
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff"
        > <lebedeff@...>
        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:38 AM
        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth
        >
        >
        > > Reader John should be commended for his wonderful
        > presentation of the
        > > meaning of the last Emperor of Russia, St.
        > Nicholas ast "He who
        > retaineth."
        > >
        > > However, the conclusions he reaches are totally
        > fallacious.
        > >
        > > He writes:
        > >
        > >
        > > > > That the pseudo church, the MP, questions
        > whether or not this man,
        > > > > one of the greatest saints of all time, is
        > indeed a passion bearer,
        > > > > is a testimony to their spiritual bankruptcy.
        > >
        > > First of all, the Moscow Patriarchate did glorify
        > St. Nicholas as a
        > > Passion-Bearer, so John's premise is false--if
        > they glorified him as among
        > > the Saints, how can they question his
        > glorification?
        > >
        > > Secondly, never has the Russian Orthodox Church
        > Outside of Russia, in any
        > > official pronouncement, called the MP a "pseudo
        > church," or one that is
        > > devoid of grace.
        > >
        > > Quite the contrary. In its official Epistle of
        > 1933, specifically
        > dedicated
        > > to express with outmost clarity the view of the
        > Church Abroad to the
        > > actions of Metropolitan Sergius, six years after
        > his "Declaration," the
        > > Moscow Patriarchate is **never** called a false
        > Church--and Metropolitan
        > > Sergius is explicitly called "the de facto Head of
        > the Russian Church,"
        > and
        > > is praised for his attempts to give the Church
        > legal status under the
        > > Communist regime.
        > >
        > > Patriarch Alexei I is called by Metropolitan
        > Anastassy "the Head of the
        > > Russian Church," and the "Navigator of the Russian
        > Church" in the
        > Conciliar
        > > Epistles of the Church Abroad in 1946 and 1948.
        > >
        > > >Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko), writing in 1953
        > (when the situation of the
        > > >Moscow Patriarchate was very clear to all):
        > > >
        > > >"First of all, with our former steadfastness we
        > confess our unity with
        > the
        > > >Mother Church of Russia, now enslaved; our
        > faithfulness to Her historical
        > > >thousand-year path, and we send to Her our
        > cordial prayerful wishes that
        > > >She may be freed quickly from the domination of
        > the God-fighters. Without
        > > >any compromise, we condemn the collaboration of
        > Her current leaders in
        > the
        > > >USSR with the atheistic communist authorities.
        > But in a like manner, we
        > > >also condemn all self-created autonomies,
        > separatism, divisions, and
        > > >independent-mindedness. The essence of our Church
        > is not in divisiveness
        > > >and seeking power, but in keeping Divine truth in
        > Unity." ("Motifs of My
        > > >Life," p. 71).
        > > >
        > > >[Actually, in this book, "Motifs of My Life,"
        > published in Jordanville,
        > > >Archbishop Vitaly (who was a confessor, himself)
        > uses the term "Mother
        > > >Church" dozens of times to refer to the Church in
        > Russia. Yes, enslaved,
        > > >yes, downtrodden--but still the Mother Church.
        > >
        > > Here is what St. John of Shanghai and San
        > Francisco wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > "Does the Russian Church inside Russia need, would
        > she benefit from, the
        > > annihilation of the Church Outside of Russia and
        > her annexation to the
        > > Patriarchate? The Russian Orthodox Church Outside
        > of Russia is not
        > > spiritually separated from her suffering Mother.
        > She offers up prayers for
        > > her, preserves her spiritual and material wealth,
        > and in due time she will
        > > unite with her, when the reasons for their
        > disunity shall have vanished.
        > > And there is no doubt that within Russia also many
        > hierarchs, clergy, and
        > > laymen are with us and would themselves be happy
        > to act as we do if they
        > > were able."
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >And, a little more clarity on the opinion of
        > Metropolitan Anthony on
        > > >Metropolitan Sergius (in personal letters,
        > written after the
        > "Declaration"):
        > > >
        > > >"Metropolitan Sergius has scandalized humself: in
        > church the people
        > yelled
        > > >at him: "Traitor, Judas!" and chased him out,
        > tearing off his
        > > >vestments--Evlogy has stopped commemorating him
        > and doesn't know whom he
        > > >can stick to now. Nevertheless, I feel sorry for
        > Metropolitan Sergius: he
        > > >has no willpower, but his mind is clear and his
        > heart is good." (Letters
        > > >of Metropolitan Anthony, p. 221).
        > > >
        > > >"I feel sorry for poor Most Reverend Metropolitan
        > Sergius, who was
        > reviled
        > > >and whistled at in a Moscow church--that is, in
        > the temple; he is, of
        > > >course, not as he was characterized by the
        > revilers, although the last
        > > >three years he has acted unwisely--he outsmarted
        > himself." (Ibid.)
        > >
        > >
        > > Let us look at the book, entitled "Motives of My
        > Life," by Archbishop
        > > Vitaly (Maximenko), published at Jordanville in
        > 1955.
        > >
        > > Now, no one could possibly claim that Archbishop
        > Vitaly, the Missionary of
        > > Pochaev and the Carpathian Moutains, Confessor for
        > the Faith (he was
        > > sentenced to death and was minutes away from
        > execution in 1918), and the
        > > man chosen by Metropolitan Anthony to be
        > consecrated bishop (in 1934) and
        > > sent to North America to heal the rift among the
        > various jurisdictions in
        > > America, was "outside of the mainstream" of the
        > Russian Orthodox Church
        > > Outside of Russia. He was and is greatly revered
        > as the "Avva," and was
        > > instrumental in making the Jordanville Monastery
        > and Seminary what they
        > are
        > > today.
        > >
        > > The book contains an "imprimatur," on the back of
        > the title page:
        > "Printing
        > > permitted. Spiritual Censor Archpriest Michael
        > Pomazansky."
        > >
        > > The book was published at the Monastery in its
        > Second, Revised Edition
        > (the
        > > one I have before me) in 1955, when the Monastery
        > was
        === message truncated ===


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      • VJB
        Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
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          Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch personally returned him the staff acknowledging his episcopacy. Let's be accurate.

          v
          St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
          repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
          and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
          said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
          his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong


          joseph digrande



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          ... They are all documented as to source--anyone can easily verify these quotes. ... The ROCOR absolutely considered Meletios (Metaxakis) to have grace, which
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
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            Joseph Digrande wrote:

            >There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
            >All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
            >ture)

            They are all documented as to source--anyone can easily verify these quotes.



            >could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
            >recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
            >Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now. In effect for
            >the ROCOR that Father Alexander portrays- being a
            >Mason like Meletius is of no importance with regard to
            >the question of grace and so Alexi being in the KGB is
            >of no great importance either.

            The ROCOR absolutely considered Meletios (Metaxakis) to have grace, which
            is confirmed by the fact that Archbishop Anastassy (later Metropolitan),
            who was living in Constantinople from 1920-1924, commemorated Patriarch
            Meletios during his entire tenure there.

            Also, the Church Abroad sent two official representatives--Archbishop
            Anastassy and Archbishop Alexander to the "Pan-Orthodox Congress" called by
            Meletios in Constantinople in 1924--the one at which the calendar reform
            was proposed, among other significant reforms. The representatives of the
            Church Abroad participated as representatives of the entire Church of
            Russia at that Congress, since the Church in Russia was not free.



            >Another point he omits: the Catacomb Church as of 1933
            >was in open theological warfare with the MP- some of
            >their major hierarchs said they had no grace(St.
            >Joseph of Petrograd)and forbid them from entering
            >their Churches. They compared them to the
            >Renovationists of which many were former members. So
            >any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
            >after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
            >big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
            >catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
            >this is a group of exiled bishops.


            This makes no sense. First of all, there was **no** entity called "The
            Catacomb Church"--there were only individual bishops, clergy, and faithful
            who protested the Declaration of Metr. Sergius and broke communion with
            him. There were dozens, if not hundreds of groups of catacombniks--most of
            which had no knowledge of each other or communion with each other, and some
            had very dubious validity of orders. So--no one was authorized to speak for
            all of the catacombniks--and they had widely varying views on the presence
            of grace in Metropolitan Sergius' ecclesiastical organization.

            The Church Abroad, on the other hand, was the sole free part of the Russian
            Church--they only part able to speak freely to the world about the
            persecution of the Church in Soviet Russia.


            >Lets not make too
            >much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
            >ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
            >Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
            >century is something to take with a grain of salt.

            The Church Abroad concelebrated with New Calendarists and those Old
            Calendarists who concelebrated with New Calendarists throughout the entire
            time of the existense of the New Calendar and up to this day.

            Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky) went himself to Bucharest to take part
            in the enthronization of the New Calendar Patriarch Myron of Romania and
            celebrated with New Calendarists all the way to the end of his life, as did
            Metropolitan Anastassy.

            New Calendarist Metropolitan Anthony (Bashir) of the Antiochian Archdiocese
            here was consecrated jointly by ROCOR Bishop Vitaly (Maximenko) and New
            Calendar Bishop Athenagoras (later Patriarch) of the Greek Archdiocese.

            In 1961, the ROCOR published an Encyclical in which it explicitly stated
            that New Calendarists had grace.

            And, for those in the HOCNA who might be interested--the ROCOR had New
            Calendar parishes and concelebrated openly with New Calendarists at the
            time that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers joined the ROCOR and throughout
            the entire time that they were in ROCOR.



            >Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
            >only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
            >like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
            >next step- a step that will not be taken.


            This is again simply historically inaccurate. In fact, exactly the opposite
            took place.

            When Patriarch Tikhon was released from imprisonment (after being required
            to express his support of the New Calendar as a condition of his release),
            many former Renovationist bishops repented, including Metropolitan Sergius,
            and asked to be received back.

            A special order of penitential reception was developed.

            The repenting bishop would, while wearing just the simple undercassock
            (podriasnik) be led into the Church just before Divine Liturgy, where
            Patriarch Tikhon and any other concelebrating bishops and clergy were
            already vested and waiting on the ambo.

            The repenting bishop would, in front of the Patriarch, the clergy, and all
            of the people, would make three full prostration, asking forgiveness of the
            Patriarch, the clergy, and the people.

            After this, the Patriarch would himself lead the repenting bishop into the
            altar, where the repenting bishop would vest in full episcopal vestments
            and would concelebrate with the Patriarch at the Divine Liturgy.

            This is exactly what happened with Metropolitan Sergius--after which the
            Patriarch assigned him as Ruling Bishop of Nizhny-Novgorod--an important see.

            Metropolitan Sergius was never deposed, defrocked, or retirned to the
            status of a simple monk. He was, instead, a Ruling Bishop under Patriarch
            Tikhon until the latter's repose, and then he was appointed as the third
            successor Deputy Locum Tenens by Metropolitan Peter, who himself had been
            appointed the third successor Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal Throne by
            Patriarch Tikhon.


            >Also Sergius in 27 was devoid of the grace to even
            >serve. St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
            >repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed him
            >and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR hierarchs
            >said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius and
            >his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just wrong
            >

            Absolutely incorrect. See above.

            Metropolitan Sergius, after his repentance, was a Ruling Bishop in good
            standing under Patriarch Tikhon, and noone doubted the legitimacy of his
            succession as Deputy Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal Throne.




            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          • Rd. Constantine Wright
            ... But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also accomplished in many places by people s pressure. Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
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              "Fr. George Primak" <primaks@...> wrote:

              > true Russian Orthodox Church? You know perfectly well
              > that the recognition
              > of the Holy Zar Nikolas and His family as martirs was
              > done only by people's
              > pressure. If there was not such pressure they wouldn't
              > do it. Maybe I am an

              But the rejection of the false council of Florence was also
              accomplished in many places by people's pressure.
              Metropolitan Isidore, on behalf of the Russian Church,
              signed on to Florence and acknowledged it... but that
              didn't make the Russian Church of the time graceless and
              irredeemably fallen.

              In Christ,
              Rd. Constantine

              =====
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            • jsbaglien
              ... Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a translation of the text?
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
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                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                wrote:

                > (Patriarch Alexei II) also took upon himself full responsibility
                > and repented for all actions of himself, and his predecessors in
                > the compromises they made with the Soviet atheistic government.

                Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                translation of the text?

                James Baglien
                Corvallis, OR
              • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                ... Sure, James. Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II, given to Izvestia No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled Patriarch Alexis
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 15, 2002
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                  Regarding:



                  >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                  >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                  >translation of the text?
                  >
                  >James Baglien
                  >Corvallis, OR

                  Sure, James.

                  Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP, Alexis II,
                  given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch Alexis II:
                  -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":

                  =============================


                  Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself responsibility
                  for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the good, but
                  also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."

                  Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:

                  Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
                  Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into proper
                  relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in the
                  Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the Church to the
                  interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are incorrect
                  from the point of view of the Church."

                  And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow Patriarchate
                  during the time of the oppression of the Church:

                  Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence, forced
                  passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the Church
                  leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not only
                  before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding, and
                  prayers."




                  With love in Christ,

                  Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical Patriarchate. In Christ Fr.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 16, 2002
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                    On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

                    > And, for those in the HOCNA who might be interested--the ROCOR had New
                    > Calendar parishes and concelebrated openly with New Calendarists at the
                    > time that Fr. Panteleimon and his followers joined the ROCOR and throughout
                    > the entire time that they were in ROCOR.
                    >
                    A vivid enough proof of this is the fact that Panteleimon was
                    received into ROCOR *by canonical transfer* from the Ecumennical
                    Patriarchate.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Hristofor
                    I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion or passion,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
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                      I first would like to thank Fr Alexander for his concise and clear
                      postings, which are done for the enlightenment of all, without any emotion
                      or passion, despite numerous provocations to the contrary.

                      A general observation may be made that many believers, whether converts or
                      "cradle Orthodox" (myself included) know very little about the Church (the
                      group of unschooled unfortunately includes some of the clergy; most of the
                      schism ringleaders have never studied at Seminary). Especially little seems
                      to be known about the canons and how the Church hierarchy functions. Often
                      writings or statements of deceased hierarchs are taken out of context to
                      support one point of view, completing ignoring other writings (which might
                      very well indict those who are trying to "save" Orthodoxy). With the advent
                      of the Internet, as we well know from secular life, anyone can post just
                      about anything and it is taken as Gospel Truth, just because it appeared
                      on the Net'. I am glad that a respected clergyman such as Fr Alexander (and
                      others) participate and correct these mistakes, which may of course be
                      simply errors and not purposely posted as "disinformation."

                      I am also amazed to see what may be called a spirit of sectism (dukh
                      sektantsva) creeping into certain postings. It seems that many whom we
                      thought were with us yesterday have somehow been infected by this virus and
                      are no longer with us.

                      My main comment is taking issue with 2 statements posted by Joseph.

                      >There is another point to Father Alexander's post:
                      >All of the quotes he used from the ROCOR bishops (if
                      >ture) could be just a huge mistake like the mistake of
                      >recognizing the sacraments and clergy of someone like
                      >Meletius in the 20's or Bartholemew now.

                      I don't think that it is appropriate to cast doubt in people's minds about
                      the legitimacy of Fr A's postings by saying "All of the quotes ... (if
                      true)". Instead, be thankful to him for replying so quickly with so many
                      citations that we all can benefit from. Do you honestly believe that he sat
                      and down and composed a bunch of phony citations and quotes? And what
                      exactly is meant by "could be just a huge mistake"? The quotes were made by
                      many respected hierarchs through the life of the ROCA. Yes, individuals may
                      have made mistakes; clergymen are not without sin. However, I believe that
                      when the bishops sit down and call upon the Holy Spirit to guide them in
                      their decision making, most times in front of the Miraculous Kursk ikon,
                      that they are truly seeking to make the best decisions and are not
                      purposely attempting to lead people astray, don't you? If you do not
                      believe this and if you believe that everything over the past 80 years was
                      just a huge mistake, what on earth are you doing in the ROCA, if you are
                      indeed a member? I am afraid that you know not what you write; this seems
                      to me a very serious accusation.

                      >So
                      >any ROCOR statements by any hierarchs (saints or not-
                      >after all Blessed Augustine is a saint to and he made
                      >big mistakes) in 1933 or after that contradicts the
                      >catacomb Churches ruling is devoid of power. After all
                      >this is a group of exiled bishops. Lets not make too
                      >much of them- they O.K.ed New Calendar parishes in
                      >ROCOR despite 11 separate anathemas by the Ecumenical
                      >Church. So their absolute authority in the 20th
                      >century is something to take with a grain of salt.

                      Really? Odd, how this "group of exiled bishops" provided at least 2 saints
                      (to our knowledge) to the choir of saints. Odd, how this "big mistake"
                      Church has been blessed with the Kursk Icon, the renewed icon of the Mother
                      of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow", the Iverskaya Icon, the St Nicholas Icon,
                      to name just a few blessings. Odd, how these exiles were always looked up
                      to through the Iron Curtain. Odd, how a monk at St Sergius Lavra asked me
                      to send a message to "Religous Books for Russia" to stop sending books by
                      Frs Meyendorf and Schmeman and to instead send books by Vl Averky and Fr M
                      Pomazansky to the then USSR. Odd, how modern saints from other Orthodox
                      jurisdictions (such as St Justin Popovic and St Nikolaj Velimirovic to name
                      a few) had great respect for the ROCA. (Oh sorry, since they come from the
                      Serbian Church, you may take their opinions with a grain of salt as well.)
                      Could you clarify--with citations--what you mean by "despite 11 separate
                      anathemas by the Ecumenical Church." It is my recollection that the
                      Ecumenical Patriarchate changed the calendar. How could they then go and
                      issue 11 anathemas against something they had done? The monasteries of Mt
                      Athos are under the omophor of the EP. Although they are Old Calendar, they
                      still commemorate the EP. Are they also not Orthodox?

                      >Alexi has blood on his hands- repentance verbally is
                      >only the first step- being busted to a simple monk
                      >like St. Tikhon did to Sergius of sorry memory is the
                      >next step- a step that will not be taken.

                      Don't think it is appropriate language to say that Patriarch Alexei should
                      "be busted". Despite your opinion, he still is a cergyman and deserves to
                      be treated with respect.

                      Sincerely,

                      Hristofor

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joseph Digrande
                      Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch. Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the crowd
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 17, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                        Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                        knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                        crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                        Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                        On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                        "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                        the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                        and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                        laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                        his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                        cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                        rank of a simple monk."
                        And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                        without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                        the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                        the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                        promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                        exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                        Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                        on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                        deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                        he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                        Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                        the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                        after this he is not only considered banned but also
                        completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                        And this deception was successful for in those days
                        that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                        His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                        the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                        imprisonment,,,"
                        Joseph digrande
                        --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                        > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                        > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                        > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                        > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                        > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                        >
                        > v
                        > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                        > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                        > him
                        > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                        > hierarchs
                        > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                        > and
                        > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                        > wrong
                        >
                        >
                        > joseph digrande
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • VJB
                        Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod? v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese of Nizhniy Novgorod?

                          v
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Joseph Digrande
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                          Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                          Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                          knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                          crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                          Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                          On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                          "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                          the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                          and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                          laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                          his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                          cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                          rank of a simple monk."
                          And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                          without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                          the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                          the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                          promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                          exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                          Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                          on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                          deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                          he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                          Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                          the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                          after this he is not only considered banned but also
                          completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                          And this deception was successful for in those days
                          that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                          His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                          the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                          imprisonment,,,"
                          Joseph digrande
                          --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                          > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                          > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and submitted
                          > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                          > personally returned him the staff acknowledging his
                          > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                          >
                          > v
                          > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                          > repented of being a Renovationist. He disobeyed
                          > him
                          > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                          > hierarchs
                          > said in the intevening years justifiying Sergius
                          > and
                          > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                          > wrong
                          >
                          >
                          > joseph digrande
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joseph Digrande
                          Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 18, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                            exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                            how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                            Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                            Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                            Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                            what I can find/ joseph digrande
                            --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                            > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                            > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                            >
                            > v
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Joseph Digrande
                            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                            > Restraineth
                            >
                            >
                            > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                            > Arch.
                            > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                            > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                            > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                            > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                            > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                            > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                            > into
                            > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                            > renovationism,
                            > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                            > and
                            > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                            > of
                            > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                            > on
                            > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                            > the
                            > rank of a simple monk."
                            > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                            > monastery
                            > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                            > to
                            > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                            > and
                            > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                            > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                            > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                            > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                            > trampled
                            > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                            > Church. He
                            > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                            > that
                            > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                            > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                            > canons of
                            > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                            > after this he is not only considered banned but
                            > also
                            > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                            > And this deception was successful for in those
                            > days
                            > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                            > of
                            > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                            > beyond
                            > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                            > imprisonment,,,"
                            > Joseph digrande
                            > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                            > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                            > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                            > submitted
                            > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                            > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                            > his
                            > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                            > >
                            > > v
                            > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                            > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                            > disobeyed
                            > > him
                            > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                            > > hierarchs
                            > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                            > Sergius
                            > > and
                            > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                            > > wrong
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > joseph digrande
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > > removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                            ... This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist. There
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Joseph Digrande wrote:

                              >Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony, Arch.
                              >Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                              >knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                              >crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                              >Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                              >On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                              >"The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away into
                              >the anti=God heresy of living-Church renovationism,
                              >and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks and
                              >laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest of
                              >his life weeping for what he has done and from now on
                              >cannot touch church serving, but will remain in the
                              >rank of a simple monk."
                              >And he instructed him to remain in a certain monastery
                              >without departing from it, in complete obedience to
                              >the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels and
                              >the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                              >promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                              >exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                              >Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly trampled
                              >on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic Church. He
                              >deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared that
                              >he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                              >Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the canons of
                              >the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                              >after this he is not only considered banned but also
                              >completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                              >And this deception was successful for in those days
                              >that were so difficult for the Church, the voice of
                              >His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard beyond
                              >the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                              >imprisonment,,,"

                              This is a complete fabrication and absolutely does not correspond to the
                              truth. It is a fable--a myth concocted by some fanatical anti-Sergianist.
                              There were plenty of eyewitnesses to the formal repentance of Metropolitan
                              Sergius and the full and accurate description was published many times,
                              including in early ROCOR sources, such as Gleb Rahr's "Subjugated Church."

                              And what is clear is that Patriarch Tikhon accepted Metr. Sergius's
                              repentance and personally assisted in vesting him in full vestments of a
                              Metropolitan and immediately concelebrated Divine Liturgy with him.

                              There are obvious errors in the narrative presented by Joseph--such as "he
                              entered the Church 3 times on his knees begging forgiveness" when the
                              actual procedure of repentance was that the penitent would, inside the
                              Church, make three full prostrations, asking forgiveness of the Patriarch,
                              the clergy, and the faithful.

                              The most telling error is that it states that Patriarch Tikhon, at that
                              time, "lived in imprisonment," when it is known that Patriarch Tikhon was
                              released from imprisonment in July of 1923 (he had been arrested in May of
                              1922). After his release in July of 1923 and up to his repose in April,
                              1924 patriarch Tikhon was not restricted in his ecclesiastical activity--he
                              traveled freely aroung Moscow, serving at the various Churches and was
                              extremely active in sermons, letters, appeals, etc., so that it is
                              ridiculous to state that "his voice could scarcely be heard."

                              Joseph later posted regarding Metropolitan Sergius appointment:

                              >Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                              >exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                              >how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                              >Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                              >Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                              >Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                              >what I can find/ joseph digrande

                              First of all, Metr. Sergius was not appointed "vicar" at Nizny Novgorod.
                              That was not a vicariate, but a major Metropolitan See, where he was
                              appointed Ruling Bishop.

                              Historical evidence is plentiful on this issue.

                              Metr. Sergius was in the Renovationist schism from the middle of 1922 to
                              the beginning of 1924.

                              Immediately after his repentance, Metr. Sergius was appointed by Patriarch
                              Tikhon to the see of Nizhny Novgorod (the exact date was March 18/31, 1924).

                              Less than two months later, on May 8/21, 1924, Patriarch Tikhon and his
                              Patriarchal Synod issued a Decree about the reorganization of the Higher
                              Church Administration and the appointment of the members of the Holy Synod
                              and of the Higher Church Council.

                              Reading from the actual Ukaze:

                              "Appointed as permanent members of the Holy Synod under the chairmanship of
                              Patriarch Tikhon are:

                              Metr. Sergius of Nizhny-Novgorod
                              Metr. Kyrill of Kazan
                              Metr. Tikhon of the Urals
                              Metr. Seraphim of Tver'
                              Metr. Peter of Krutitsk" . . .

                              . . .and 6 more Archbishops (including Archbishop Joseph of Rostov (later
                              Metropolitan of Petrograd) and one other Bishop.

                              So it is perfectly clear that not only was Metr. Sergius **not** removed
                              from serving and reduced to the status of a simple monk, as the fabrication
                              depicts, but actually he was given a criitically important see and
                              appointed the **ranking member** of the Holy Synod by Patriarch Tikhon.




                              With love in Christ,

                              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                            • VJB
                              He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist. v ... From: Joseph Digrande To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                He was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim (Isiderskiy), a renovationist.

                                v
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Joseph Digrande
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:41 PM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                                Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                                exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                                how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                                Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                                Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                                Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                                what I can find/ joseph digrande
                                --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                                > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                                >
                                > v
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Joseph Digrande
                                > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                                > Restraineth
                                >
                                >
                                > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                                > Arch.
                                > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                                > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                                > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                                > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                                > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                                > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                                > into
                                > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                                > renovationism,
                                > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                                > and
                                > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                                > of
                                > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                                > on
                                > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                                > the
                                > rank of a simple monk."
                                > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                                > monastery
                                > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                                > to
                                > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                                > and
                                > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                                > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                                > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                                > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                                > trampled
                                > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                                > Church. He
                                > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                                > that
                                > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                                > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                                > canons of
                                > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                                > after this he is not only considered banned but
                                > also
                                > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                                > And this deception was successful for in those
                                > days
                                > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                                > of
                                > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                                > beyond
                                > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                                > imprisonment,,,"
                                > Joseph digrande
                                > --- VJB <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                                > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                                > submitted
                                > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                                > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                                > his
                                > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                                > >
                                > > v
                                > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                                > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                                > disobeyed
                                > > him
                                > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                                > > hierarchs
                                > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                                > Sergius
                                > > and
                                > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                                > > wrong
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > joseph digrande
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > > removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
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                              • joeswaydyn2000
                                Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the 1920 s communicated
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                  Until Joseph D made this statement I have never seen an argument that
                                  Sergius was only a simple monk. Even the Synod of Bishops in the
                                  1920's communicated with Sergius, who declined to answer questions
                                  about the diaspora because he was unaware of what was going on. That
                                  the Patriarch was a prisoner in the Monastery there is no doubt. But
                                  it would strike me as odd that something of this magnitude is not
                                  even documented in more than one source; all my sources on the
                                  history of the ROCA indicate that Sergius was considered a Bishop
                                  until 1927, when after ten months of imprisonment and torture, he
                                  capitulated to the Communists.- JS

                                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@y...> wrote:
                                  > Good question/I will have to dig a little to find the
                                  > exact date he became the vicar at Nizhniy Novgorod and
                                  > how he became one. Also what evidence that the
                                  > Communists wer involved in his placement there. The
                                  > Patriarch was pretty much a prisoner of the Donskoy
                                  > Monastery at that time. I will get back to you with
                                  > what I can find/ joseph digrande
                                  > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                  > > Is that why Patriarch appointed him to the Diocese
                                  > > of Nizhniy Novgorod?
                                  > >
                                  > > v
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Joseph Digrande
                                  > > To: orthodox-synod@y...
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:59 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who
                                  > > Restraineth
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Acccording to the eyewitness of the ceremony,
                                  > > Arch.
                                  > > Pitirim, Sergius entered the Church 3 times on his
                                  > > knees begging for forgiveness. All three times the
                                  > > crowd in the Church begged Pat. Tikhon to :"Holy
                                  > > Vladyko, do not believe him>"
                                  > > On the third time Pat. Tikhon said,
                                  > > "The former Met. Sergius as having fallen away
                                  > > into
                                  > > the anti=God heresy of living-Church
                                  > > renovationism,
                                  > > and as having drawn many Orthodox priests, monks
                                  > > and
                                  > > laity into destruction, is to remain for the rest
                                  > > of
                                  > > his life weeping for what he has done and from now
                                  > > on
                                  > > cannot touch church serving, but will remain in
                                  > > the
                                  > > rank of a simple monk."
                                  > > And he instructed him to remain in a certain
                                  > > monastery
                                  > > without departing from it, in complete obedience
                                  > > to
                                  > > the father abbot. And before Christ and His Angels
                                  > > and
                                  > > the Holy Church the former Met. Sergius gave a
                                  > > promises to fulfull everything he had promised
                                  > > exactly. But alas, he immediately deceived the
                                  > > Patriarch, broke his promise to him, boldly
                                  > > trampled
                                  > > on the canons of the Catholic and Apostolic
                                  > > Church. He
                                  > > deceived everyone he could deceive, he declared
                                  > > that
                                  > > he had received complete forgiveness from "His
                                  > > Holiness" and began to serve. IN view fo the
                                  > > canons of
                                  > > the Holy Apostles, Holy Councils and Holy Fathers,
                                  > > after this he is not only considered banned but
                                  > > also
                                  > > completely deposed, even excommunicated...
                                  > > And this deception was successful for in those
                                  > > days
                                  > > that were so difficult for the Church, the voice
                                  > > of
                                  > > His Holiness the Pat could scarcely be heard
                                  > > beyond
                                  > > the Donskoy Monastery where he lived in
                                  > > imprisonment,,,"
                                  > > Joseph digrande
                                  > > --- VJB <venceslav@s...> wrote:
                                  > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I was under impression
                                  > > > that Sergius repented of Renovationism and
                                  > > submitted
                                  > > > his staff to Patriarch Tikhon and the Patriarch
                                  > > > personally returned him the staff acknowledging
                                  > > his
                                  > > > episcopacy. Let's be accurate.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > v
                                  > > > St. Tikhon declared that in public when he
                                  > > > repented of being a Renovationist. He
                                  > > disobeyed
                                  > > > him
                                  > > > and continued to serve. Anything that ROCOR
                                  > > > hierarchs
                                  > > > said in the intevening years justifiying
                                  > > Sergius
                                  > > > and
                                  > > > his ilk is just plain wrong/ not foolish/ just
                                  > > > wrong
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > joseph digrande
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  > > > removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > __________________________________________________
                                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes
                                  > > http://autos.yahoo.com
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                                  > >
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                                  > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > > Terms of Service.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  > > removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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                                • frmarkg
                                  Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT Sender: Orthodox Christianity From: Mr. Vincent Niemann
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                    Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:28:04 EDT
                                    Sender: Orthodox Christianity <orthodox@...>
                                    From: "Mr. Vincent Niemann" <GreekOrthodoxTV@...>
                                    Subject: New Rules For This List.

                                    One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher Socrates and
                                    said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"

                                    "Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything
                                    I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter
                                    Test."

                                    "Triple filter?"

                                    "That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about
                                    my friend it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what
                                    you're going to say.

                                    That's why I call it the triple filter test. The first filter
                                    is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about
                                    to tell me is true?"

                                    "No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."

                                    "All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's
                                    true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of
                                    goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend
                                    something good?"

                                    "No, on the contrary..."

                                    "So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad
                                    about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass
                                    the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of
                                    usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my friend going to
                                    be useful to me?"

                                    "No, not really."

                                    "Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is
                                    neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at
                                    all?"
                                  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    ... This is not fully historically accurate. First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was **Meshcherskiy**, not Isiderskiy. Secondly,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                      VJB wrote:

                                      >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace Archbishop Evdokim
                                      >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                      >


                                      This is not fully historically accurate.

                                      First of all, the surname of the renovationist bishop Evdokim was
                                      **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."

                                      Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                      Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June 3/16, 1922 to October
                                      20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                      From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April 13, 1923--he was the
                                      Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April 13, 1924 to September,
                                      1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.

                                      The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny Novgorod was vacant from
                                      June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr. Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                      appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.




                                      With love in Christ,

                                      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                    • goossir
                                      Dear Father Alexander, Bless! About Alexis II s repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his comments on ROCOR Bishops Council response to MP s fraternal
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
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                                        Dear Father Alexander, Bless!

                                        About Alexis II's repentence: 10 years later in november 2001, his
                                        comments on ROCOR Bishops' Council response to MP's fraternal letter:
                                        in http://www.ripnet.org/besieged/rparocora.htm, :

                                        "--About the accusations against us of so-called sergianism I want to
                                        say that it was necessary to live here in the motherland in order to
                                        understand that this is an artificial accusation and artificial
                                        pretext that they are trying to exaggerate so as simply to prevent
                                        reunification. In the main it deals with the letter by Metropolitan
                                        Sergius in 1927, the so-called Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius.
                                        By this letter he wanted to show the authorities, who, I remind you,
                                        had imprisoned and shot clergy and believers, that the church was not
                                        a counterrevolutionary organization. Thus the letter said: "we want
                                        to be Orthodox and we want to realize the Soviet Union as our
                                        motherland, whose joys are our joys and whose sorrows are our
                                        sorrows." Most often it is these words that evoke the far-fetched
                                        criticism: "What kind of joys can be in common with an atheist
                                        state?" But the letter is not talking about an atheist state; it is
                                        talking about the motherland, although in 1927 this concept was
                                        almost forgotten.

                                        This was a clever step by which Metropolitan Sergius tried to save
                                        the church and clergy. In declaring that the members of the church
                                        want to see themselves as a part of the motherland and want to share
                                        her joys and sorrows, he tried to show to those who were persecuting
                                        the church and who were destroying it that we, the children of the
                                        church, want to be loyal citizens so that the affiliation of people
                                        with the church would not place them outside the law. So this is a
                                        far-fetched accusation."

                                        SO-CALLED SERGIANISM! Alexis II finds it clever the step taken by
                                        Met Sergius (a pact with satan to save to church) - no regrets!

                                        If his repentence came after the above declaration, then I could
                                        understand but it is exactly the reverse and, to top it all in
                                        reacting to our Synod.
                                        This cynicism only shows that he thinks we are idiots.

                                        Please forgive me for what could seem as a cutting tone. There is
                                        another interview published at the beginning of this year, that I
                                        will post the momment I can put my hand on it, where Pat Alexis II
                                        justifies sergianism in even better words.

                                        May I ask a question - why are you so kind, understanding and
                                        compassionate with the MP, while, at the same time, full of anger
                                        against your own brothers who questionned some of our bishops about
                                        their sincerity in keeping the true path of our Church?

                                        Yours in Christ,

                                        Irina Pahlen


                                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@w...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Regarding:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >Father, I was not aware of this statement - can you provide more
                                        > >information on the occasion of these remarks, and if possible, a
                                        > >translation of the text?
                                        > >
                                        > >James Baglien
                                        > >Corvallis, OR
                                        >
                                        > Sure, James.
                                        >
                                        > Here are some quotes from an interview of the head of the MP,
                                        Alexis II,
                                        > given to "Izvestia" No 137, June 10, 1991, entitled "Patriarch
                                        Alexis II:
                                        > -- I Take upon Myself Responsibility for All that Happened":
                                        >
                                        > =============================
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Pat A.: "Being a person of the Church, I must take on myself
                                        responsibility
                                        > for all that occurred in the life of my Church: not only for the
                                        good, but
                                        > also for the difficult, the sorrowful, the erroneous."
                                        >
                                        > Regarding the 1927 Declaration of Metropolitan Sergius:
                                        >
                                        > Pat. A.: "Today we can say that falsehood is interspersed in his
                                        > Declaration, which stated as its goal 'placing the Church into
                                        proper
                                        > relations with the Soviet government.' But these relations--and in
                                        the
                                        > Declaration they are clearly defined as the submission of the
                                        Church to the
                                        > interests of governmental politics--are exactly those which are
                                        incorrect
                                        > from the point of view of the Church."
                                        >
                                        > And, regarding the statements and activities of the Moscow
                                        Patriarchate
                                        > during the time of the oppression of the Church:
                                        >
                                        > Pat. A.: "Of people, then, to whom these compromises, silence,
                                        forced
                                        > passivity or expressions of loyalty that were permitted by the
                                        Church
                                        > leadership in those days, have caused pain -- of these people, not
                                        only
                                        > before God, but also before them, I ask forgiveness, understanding,
                                        and
                                        > prayers."
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > With love in Christ,
                                        >
                                        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                      • Kiril Bart
                                        Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov (comunists leader) was killed. Subdeacon Kirill ...
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 23, 2002
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                                          Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                          town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                          (comunists leader) was killed.
                                          Subdeacon Kirill
                                          --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > VJB wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                          > Archbishop Evdokim
                                          > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                          >
                                          > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                          > bishop Evdokim was
                                          > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                          >
                                          > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                          > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                          > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                          > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                          > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                          > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                          > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                          > 13, 1923--he was the
                                          > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                          > 13, 1924 to September,
                                          > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                          >
                                          > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                          > Novgorod was vacant from
                                          > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                          > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                          > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > With love in Christ,
                                          >
                                          > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


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                                        • VJB
                                          True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30 s to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee. v ... From: Kiril Bart To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 24, 2002
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                                            True! Kirov was not even promoted to until late 30's to replace Zinoviev at the Leningrad Committee.

                                            v
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Kiril Bart
                                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:05 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: He Who Restraineth


                                            Bishop of Kirov?? There was no Kirov at the time, that
                                            town was named Vjatka and it was renamed after Kirov
                                            (comunists leader) was killed.
                                            Subdeacon Kirill
                                            --- "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > VJB wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >He [Metropolitan Sergius] was appointed to replace
                                            > Archbishop Evdokim
                                            > >(Isiderskiy), a renovationist.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > This is not fully historically accurate.
                                            >
                                            > First of all, the surname of the renovationist
                                            > bishop Evdokim was
                                            > **Meshcherskiy**, not "Isiderskiy."
                                            >
                                            > Secondly, Evdokim (Meshcherskiy) was the Orthodox
                                            > Ruling Bishop of Nizhny
                                            > Novgorod from 1918 to June 3/16, 1922. From June
                                            > 3/16, 1922 to October
                                            > 20/November 2, 1922 he was the Renovationist Bishop
                                            > of Nizhny Novgorod.
                                            > From October 20/November 2, 1922 to March 31/April
                                            > 13, 1923--he was the
                                            > Renovationist Bishop of Odessa. From March 31/April
                                            > 13, 1924 to September,
                                            > 1924, he was the Renovationist Bishop of Kirov.
                                            >
                                            > The Orthodox (Non-Renovationist) See of Nizhny
                                            > Novgorod was vacant from
                                            > June 3/16, 1922 to March 18/31, 1924, when Metr.
                                            > Sergius (Stragorodsky) was
                                            > appointed by Patriarch Tikhon.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > With love in Christ,
                                            >
                                            > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


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