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Re: The historical position of the Church Abroad

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  • joeswaydyn2000
    ... was to ... out to ... you may have ... a ruling ... bishops ... even ... lay alike ... chose ... Epistle; The ... you can ... you don t. ... Just seeing it
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 3, 2002
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      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
      > Although I imagine the intent of the recent posting by Mr Kozyreff
      was to
      > show Metropolitan Philaret's strong stance against the MP, it turns
      out to
      > be quite an indictment of ROCiE and the Varnavaites.
      >
      > From M. Philaret's letter:
      > >And have written him letters, etc.? No matter how sincere a man
      you may have
      > >considered him to be, nevertheless, can your private opinion annul
      a ruling
      > >adopted by the Church? <...>
      >
      > Remember the hue and cry over the Epistle of October 2000? Some
      bishops
      > signed and then removed their signatures, former Bp Varnava didn't
      even
      > sign... It seems that many a private opinion from both clergy and
      lay alike
      > interfered with the decision(s) of the Synod. Although Bp Varnava
      chose
      > not sign, it did not mean that he did not have to abide by the
      Epistle; The
      > Orthodox Church is neither a democracy nor a Chinese menu, where
      you can
      > select the things you like about it and chose to ignore the things
      you don't.
      >

      Just seeing it from both sides here, not defending ROCE per se; if
      the ROCOR then signed a document affirming full membership with the
      WCC, the Bishops are obliged to abide by it? I mean, that would also
      be personal opinion. Let's be objective here.

      Joe
    • vkozyreff
      Dear List, Roman Martin writes: the first thing to correct here is the notion that anyone--even the martyrs!--saves the Church. The Church saves us. We do
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 13, 2002
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        Dear List,

        Roman Martin writes:

        "the first thing to correct here is the notion that anyone--even the
        martyrs!--saves the Church. The Church saves us. We do not save the
        Church."

        Let me kindly comment as follows.

        If there is no clergy left and no believers left in a country, the
        Church has ceased to be present in that country (has been lost).
        Achieving this in the USSR (destroying the Church) was the goal of
        the communists. Preventing this from happening (by being faithful)
        was "saving the Church".

        The faith does save the Church. The Faith essential to the Church. No
        faith, no Church. If all are living out of the faith, nobody is
        living in it, and there is no Church.

        The reason the Sergianists allowed themselves to collaborate with the
        atheist regime is that they thought or claimed that this was the only
        way to prevent the extinction of the faith in the Soviet Union.

        In those who accepted this view, they actually did destroy the faith,
        which is indispensable for the Church to be. A great deal of MP
        faithful tell you now that had it not been for Met Sergius, there
        would have been no place left to pray in the Soviet Union or even no
        notion that Christ had ever existed. They thus considered that they
        did save the Faith and thus the Church from disappearing.

        We all know that the Church saves us if we are in Her. This does not
        at all contradict the statement that the martyrs (in Christ) save (in
        Christ) the Church from all our sins. Our faith is to believe that,
        by the grace of God, there will always be martyrs on earth to save
        the Church from disappearing from earth, in spite of all apparently
        realistic predictions. In spite also of the fact that man can, if he
        chooses to, refuse God and thus destroy the Chuch.

        Our sins and our Sergianism in particular (a frequent mistake which
        consists in using evil means for supposedly sacred goals) do harm
        (kill) the Church. Acknowledging Christ in the most difficult
        conditions (being a martyr) is counteracting our sins and thus saving
        the Church.

        The martyrs do prevent the Church from disappearing (save Her) and,
        in doing so, allow us to be saved in Her. That is the Communion of
        Saints.

        Practicing or approving Sergianism is, by definition, not believing
        in the Church, that is not believing Christ: "And I tell you that you
        are rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of
        Hell will not overcome it".(Matthew 16:18)

        "for just as it is a work of his will and is called the world, so
        also the salvation of men is his will and this is called the church"
        (Clement of Alexandria).

        In Christ,

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Russell Martin" <martinre@w...> wrote:
        > I find nothing whatsoever questionable and dubious in Fr.
        Alexander's
        > post. In fact, it is the kind of thing that, if one listens to
        with a
        > calm and charitable heart, only stirs compassion and optimism. At
        least
        > for me. On the other hand:
        >
        > <<< We are together
        > with the millions of martyrs of Russia. They, and only they, saved
        > the Church in Russia.
        > Am I mistaken?
        > or is this so difficult to understand?>>>
        >
        > It is I who am frequently mistaken, but it seems to me that the
        first
        > thing to correct here is the notion that anyone--even the
        > martyrs!--saves the Church. The Church saves us. We do not save
        the
        > Church.
        >
        > I am not, moreover, familiar with any official proclamations that
        > suggest that Met. Sergius, in taking the actions he did, "saved" the
        > Church.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Roman Martin
        >
        > Russell E. Martin
        > Asst. Professor of History
        > Westminster College
        > New Wilmington, PA 16172-0001
        > phone: 724.946.7246
        > fax: 724.946.7256
        > webpage: http://www.westminster.edu/staff/martinre/
        > other email: remartin@p...
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