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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

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  • Joachim Wertz
    Dear Irina, First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark. However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
      Dear Irina,

      First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark.
      However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his email
      is hiobmon@..., at least that is the latest information I have access
      to.

      According to the interview published in "Kontinent" (no. 98 [4], 1998) pp.
      284-286, Vl. Mark's spiritual father at the Skete of the Prophet Elias on
      the Holy Mountain gave him an obedience to study theology. Now bearing in
      mind that Vl. Mark already possessed a doctorate and was well versed in
      Patristics , Russian Orthodox spirituality, as well as having spent
      considerable time on Mt. Athos, it can be implied from the context that it
      was meant that he study what we would call theology at GRADUATE level.
      Jordanville is a SEMINARY, not an ecclesiastical academy or theological
      faculty. It's main purpose is to train priests and give them the basics of
      theology, liturgics, Church music, pastoral care, apologetics, etc. Many of
      its students have traditionally entered the seminary lacking the equivalent
      of a college degree (US). This is not a criticism, but a statement of the
      situation. The Jordanville seminary serves its defined purpose well. But I
      am drifting from my point. It should be mentioned that Vl. Mark applied to
      the Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy located at the Trinity-St. Sergius
      Monastery, to be admitted as a CORRESPONDENCE STUDENT (just for the record).
      AFTER obtaining his theological education in Belgrade, Bp. Pavel suggested
      to Vl. Mark that he go to Jordanville since the Bishop thought that Vl.
      Mark's knowledge and talents would be useful at the seminary. I do not know
      why this did not come to fruition. So you see that Vl. Mark went to America
      to look into a possible position at Jordanville, not to be a student. Upon
      his return from America, Vl. Mark told Bp. Pavel that what he wanted was to
      serve in the German Diocese.

      I do not have any clear knowledge of the events in the European dioceses you
      mention and will not comment on them.

      In the email you sent to me personally, you mention that Mr. V. Kozyreff was
      called a "fundamentalist". I did not so call him.

      Let me say that I know Vl. Mark personally, having met him in NY shortly
      after his consecration and later I was a pilgrim at his monastery in Munich.
      I spoke with him briefly by telephone when he was in NY in the mid-90's.
      That was the last contact I had with him. I respect him highly.

      In Christ,

      Joachim Wertz

      ----------
      From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
      Date: Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 5:07 AM


      Dear Elizabeth,

      As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also
      privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of
      my letters, posted previously on this topic to the official chat site
      were never published - it seems some censorship was working. So this
      time I wanted to make sure that it attained its correspondents - and
      it worked.

      I do thank you for your openness to dialogue. It is only by
      exchanging our views clearly that perhaps we will get out of this
      hole in which our Church is for the moment and force people who do
      not want to hear and see to finally open their ears and eyes.
      Vladimir K. already answered many of your remarks so I will not go
      back to them as, personally, I fully agree with his approach.

      Regarding Vl. Mark, Joaquim Wertz said that we can call him or write
      to him - good idea but I do not have his phone number or address - so
      perhaps he could provide it.

      Still, something is puzzling me. The Monastery of the Trinity St
      Sergius in Russia was in those days (and still is) totally part of
      the MP who was totally subdued to the Communist regime. So how can
      someone following our path envisage that their curriculum is better
      than Jordanville in the matter of spirituality?? Even if the quality
      of the general subjects in Jordanville were not taught top grade, a
      faithful person will not go to people who made a pact with satan
      (which is actually what communism is, like it or not). I guess Vl
      Mark will have difficulties explaining this to me!

      Vl Mark is also quite silent about the several appeals made by the 10
      priests (12 at the time) of the European dioceses and their request
      of an ecclesiastical judgment, already back in 1999, and that no
      answer EVER came from the Synod. He just waves them away as a bunch
      of "extremists" deserving their suspension made after a quick and
      grotesque judgment defying any ecclesiastic rules. And what about
      the events in Mansonville??? Can any Christian approve sincerely
      what happened there? Is this the way churchmen should behave?
      I know, Dear Elizabeth, that you cannot answer these questions -
      neither do I, but they were put hundred times to bishops, priests in
      the Synod and they were never really answered up to now.

      Many reply: who are we to demand from our bishops? We should obey
      and pray - and that is all. Personally I think it is erroneous as
      Christ asked us to judge. When someone asked him: How shall we
      recognise where is the true Church, he answered: You will judge them
      by their fruits. (I quote more or less out of memory).
      Blind obedience could be very dangerous. This is what we
      call "papist"

      In Christ,
      Irina Goossens






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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • vladimir kozyreff
      Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus the Confessor, said in the 7th century: I do not desire heretics to be tormented
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 15, 2002
        Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus
        the Confessor, said in the 7th century: "I do not desire heretics to be
        tormented and do not rejoice in their evil - God forbid! But I rejoice the
        more so in their conversion... I have not so far lost my reason as to value
        mercilessness above love for others...

        But despite this I say that heretics cannot be helped by confirming them in
        their insane beliefs, here one has to be blunt and uncompromising.
        For I call it not love, but hatred for one's fellow men and a falling away
        from
        Divine love when anyone confirms heretics in their errors, leading to
        the inevitable perdition of these people."

        This is why the ROCA has never confirmed the MP in its errors by
        hypocritically
        recognizing its "lawfulness" and "fullness," the "grace of its Church life,"
        or that it is supposedly a "part" of the one Russian Church, for the
        inevitable
        perdition of whatever is still alive in the MP.

        Archpriest Lev Lebedeff
        Great Lent 1998
        Kursk.

        -----Message d'origine-----
        De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
        Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
        A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


        Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

        To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


        >
        > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
        > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
        must be
        > the ex-KGB officers and their
        > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
        develop
        > relationship
        > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
        >

        OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
        (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
        glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
        leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
        doesn't exist!

        Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
        society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
        were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
        the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
        spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
        already a MIRACLE.

        If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
        leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
        indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
        the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
        perhaps Islam?

        Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
        the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
        intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
        generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
        now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
        as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
        includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
        or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
        continue to provide guidance!



        >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
        without
        any
        > ground.

        I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
        what I have witnessed in others.

        >
        > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
        it was
        > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
        > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
        MP
        > cannot be part of the Church.

        If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


        > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
        understand
        > that the Synod
        > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
        confusion. The
        > Church
        > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
        >

        I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
        was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
        opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
        credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
        controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



        > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
        claiming
        > that this
        > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
        statement
        > is an outrage to the martyrs,
        > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
        heresy
        > cannot be part of the Church.

        This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
        calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

        >
        > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
        consider
        > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
        told you
        > ever that this
        > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
        > sergianists?
        >
        > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
        Sergianism.


        In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
        strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
        mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
        accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
        without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
        sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
        is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
        "four" regarding 2+2...

        I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
        critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
        them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
        'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
        our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
        goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
        of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

        I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

        In the ascended Christ,
        Elizabeth



        >
        > -----Message d'origine-----
        > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
        > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
        > A : orthodox-synod@y...
        > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
        >
        >
        > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
        > responses:
        >
        > to QUESTION 1:
        > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
        answering
        > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
        >
        >
        > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
        > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
        > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
        > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
        taking
        > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
        >
        > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
        > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
        > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
        > expectations."...
        >
        > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
        > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
        > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
        > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
        > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
        > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
        opinion,
        > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
        >
        > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
        > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
        > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
        > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
        are
        > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
        that
        > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
        > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
        Hodigitria
        > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
        > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
        churches
        > to them...
        >
        > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
        > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
        >
        > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
        > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
        > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
        to
        > be the case all too often.
        >
        > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
        > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
        > heartbreaking.
        >
        > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
        >
        > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
        >
        > Elizabeth
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • vladimir kozyreff
        Dear Elisabeth and others, I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 16, 2002
          Dear Elisabeth and others,

          I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent
          before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to delete it
          and to replace it by the following one, which I have now finalised.


          Below, I respond to your successive points.

          >OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
          >(something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
          >glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)?

          Any legitimate means may be used to influence them. Pretending to accept
          that their past collaboration with the communist regime was
          inspired by the holy Spirit and that their excommunicating the martyrs was
          blessed by Christ is not legitimate. This would amount to adopt a totally
          wrong concept of Christianity and of the Church.

          >We cannot have our leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that
          >the huge MP doesn't exist!

          Alas we know too well that it exists. It is even the cause of our discord.

          >Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
          >society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
          >we>re raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
          >the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
          >spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
          >already a MIRACLE.

          I agree with you.

          >Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
          >the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
          >intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
          >generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
          >now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
          >as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
          >includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
          >or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
          >continue to provide guidance!

          I agree totally with you. Our mission is in Russia. This does not seem to be
          Vl Mark's opinion however.

          >If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

          I am totally with you.

          >I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
          >was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
          >opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
          >credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
          >controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

          What is not clear is that bishops allow themselves to have personal views
          that are different from those of the Church and to publish them. For
          Instance, Vl Ambrosius thinks that sergianism is not that important. He
          believes that only psychological obstacles remain between us and the MP.
          This personal view is well known and was many times confirmed, even in
          private conversations with him. Of course, his official discourse is
          different. The accusation that the Synod never accepted to judge concerns
          certain actions of Vl Ambrosius, that were in line with his personal views
          and that contradict the teaching of the Church. This is an example of
          intolerable confusion.

          >This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
          >calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

          Condemning somebody is stating his culpability. As Christians, we are not
          entitled to condemn our neighbour. We must however resist his wrongdoings.
          We
          have the duty to distinguish between the good and the evil. Identifying a
          proposal that is incompatible with Christ's teaching is identifying a
          heresy. We must exercise our spiritual judgement. A Christian must be
          merciful for the sinner but intolerant to the sin.

          >In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
          >strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
          >mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
          >accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
          >without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
          >sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
          >is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
          >"four" regarding 2+2...

          The fact that baptism or ordinations are not re-done is just an application
          of "oeconomia". This is a rule of the Church by which derogations are made
          to the canons when it helps people to return to the truth, when it is in the
          interest of the person in question, in the interest of the Church and in the
          interest of the Truth. I know your argument is often used in our discussion,
          but it is not applicable here.

          Concerning the heretical nature of sergianism, I refer you to my previous
          communications below.

          From: "Vladimir Kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
          Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:45 pm
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


          I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
          stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
          teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
          heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
          themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

          This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
          question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

          In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
          Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
          collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
          the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
          temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
          martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
          Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
          Spirit.

          " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
          Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
          before my Father in heaven".

          The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
          knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
          will remain anathema.

          This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
          Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
          is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
          stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

          In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
          anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
          wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
          in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

          From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
          Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:45 pm
          Subject: Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

          Dear Father Seraphim,

          You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
          heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".

          Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
          distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":

          1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
          in deeds.
          2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
          Church.

          Both of them are heretical.

          Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
          collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
          is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
          that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
          contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.

          (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
          with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
          thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
          Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
          promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
          heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
          seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
          that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:

          Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
          Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
          had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
          Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
          You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
          opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
          is heretical too.
          In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
          that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
          not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
          counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
          is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
          action that displeased God is heretical too.

          It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
          explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
          heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
          Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
          we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
          can see it.

          Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
          our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
          schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
          same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
          the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
          As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
          start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
          nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
          orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.

          >I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
          >critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
          >them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
          >'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
          >our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
          >goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
          >of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

          Because of my belief in the calling of our Church, I cannot agree with Vl
          Mark. His position amounts to stating the following, which is totally
          unacceptable:
          - our Church must forget that she once was Russian
          - the MP is good enough to be the Church of Russia that we dreamed to be
          - Sergianism is not an issue any longer
          - We must be realistic: we will never make it
          - Let us sign a Yalta agreement with the MP. Each "Church" will be allocated
          a territory of influence and peace will come.

          Dear Elisabeth, we both love Russia. The return to the truth of our brothers
          and sisters in Russia is my greatest concern. I feel very humble, because I
          might have been less resistant than most them to the terrible spiritual
          ordeal that they experienced. I never thought of judging them. I agree that
          we should show them love and understanding. We must never adopt an out of
          place attitude of superiority. Of course, we must talk to them, but never at
          the expense of the truth. I am sure that we will make peace, you and I,
          after we have put aside certain disagreements. We might be closer than we
          think.

          Forgive me if I have iritated you. I appreciate a lot your kind attention.

          With love in Christ.

          Vladimir Kozyreff




          -----Message d'origine-----
          De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
          Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
          A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


          Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

          To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


          >
          > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
          > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
          must be
          > the ex-KGB officers and their
          > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
          develop
          > relationship
          > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
          >

          OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
          (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
          glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
          leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
          doesn't exist!

          Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
          society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
          were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
          the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
          spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
          already a MIRACLE.

          If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
          leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
          indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
          the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
          perhaps Islam?

          Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
          the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
          intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
          generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
          now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
          as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
          includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
          or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
          continue to provide guidance!



          >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
          without
          any
          > ground.

          I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
          what I have witnessed in others.

          >
          > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
          it was
          > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
          > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
          MP
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


          > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
          understand
          > that the Synod
          > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
          confusion. The
          > Church
          > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
          >

          I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
          was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
          opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
          credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
          controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



          > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
          claiming
          > that this
          > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
          statement
          > is an outrage to the martyrs,
          > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
          heresy
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
          calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

          >
          > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
          consider
          > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
          told you
          > ever that this
          > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
          > sergianists?
          >
          > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
          Sergianism.


          In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
          strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
          mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
          accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
          without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
          sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
          is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
          "four" regarding 2+2...

          I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
          critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
          them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
          'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
          our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
          goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
          of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

          I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

          In the ascended Christ,
          Elizabeth



          >
          > -----Message d'origine-----
          > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
          > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
          > A : orthodox-synod@y...
          > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
          >
          >
          > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
          > responses:
          >
          > to QUESTION 1:
          > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
          answering
          > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
          >
          >
          > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
          > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
          > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
          > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
          taking
          > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
          >
          > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
          > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
          > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
          > expectations."...
          >
          > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
          > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
          > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
          > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
          > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
          > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
          opinion,
          > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
          >
          > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
          > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
          > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
          > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
          are
          > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
          that
          > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
          > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
          Hodigitria
          > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
          > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
          churches
          > to them...
          >
          > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
          > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
          >
          > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
          > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
          > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
          to
          > be the case all too often.
          >
          > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
          > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
          > heartbreaking.
          >
          > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
          >
          > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
          >
          > Elizabeth
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




          -----Message d'origine-----
          De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
          Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
          A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


          Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

          To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


          >
          > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
          > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
          must be
          > the ex-KGB officers and their
          > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
          develop
          > relationship
          > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
          >

          OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
          (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
          glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
          leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
          doesn't exist!

          Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
          society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
          were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
          the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
          spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
          already a MIRACLE.

          If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
          leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
          indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
          the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
          perhaps Islam?

          Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
          the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
          intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
          generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
          now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
          as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
          includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
          or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
          continue to provide guidance!



          >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
          without
          any
          > ground.

          I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
          what I have witnessed in others.

          >
          > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
          it was
          > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
          > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
          MP
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


          > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
          understand
          > that the Synod
          > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
          confusion. The
          > Church
          > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
          >

          I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
          was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
          opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
          credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
          controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



          > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
          claiming
          > that this
          > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
          statement
          > is an outrage to the martyrs,
          > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
          heresy
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
          calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

          >
          > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
          consider
          > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
          told you
          > ever that this
          > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
          > sergianists?
          >
          > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
          Sergianism.


          In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
          strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
          mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
          accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
          without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
          sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
          is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
          "four" regarding 2+2...

          I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
          critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
          them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
          'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
          our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
          goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
          of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

          I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

          In the ascended Christ,
          Elizabeth



          >
          > -----Message d'origine-----
          > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
          > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
          > A : orthodox-synod@y...
          > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
          >
          >
          > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
          > responses:
          >
          > to QUESTION 1:
          > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
          answering
          > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
          >
          >
          > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
          > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
          > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
          > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
          taking
          > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
          >
          > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
          > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
          > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
          > expectations."...
          >
          > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
          > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
          > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
          > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
          > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
          > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
          opinion,
          > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
          >
          > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
          > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
          > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
          > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
          are
          > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
          that
          > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
          > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
          Hodigitria
          > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
          > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
          churches
          > to them...
          >
          > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
          > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
          >
          > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
          > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
          > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
          to
          > be the case all too often.
          >
          > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
          > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
          > heartbreaking.
          >
          > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
          >
          > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
          >
          > Elizabeth
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • vladimir kozyreff
          I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very knowledgeable and respected person. I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
            I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very
            knowledgeable and respected person.

            I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
            atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his position.

            In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad of
            February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a four-day
            visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21. The
            report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-celebrated
            with Serbian priests.

            The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of Churches.
            The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How can we
            reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with the
            Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position relative to
            our Church's.

            Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line of the
            Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the Church,
            committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches obedience
            to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already confuse time?
            Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not? If not,
            why? Is this a acceptable question to put?

            Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests from
            Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been heard by
            the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that they did
            not obey.

            In Christ,

            Vladimir Kozyreff
          • joeswaydyn2000
            Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in communion with the Serbs--
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
              Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
              here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
              communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
              communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
              clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
              claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
              something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
              with.

              To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
              Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
              doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
              word 'disobedience' in quotes.

              Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
              so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.

              Joseph

              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
              > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
              very
              > knowledgeable and respected person.
              >
              > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
              > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
              position.
              >
              > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
              Abroad of
              > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
              four-day
              > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
              8/21. The
              > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
              celebrated
              > with Serbian priests.
              >
              > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
              Churches.
              > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
              can we
              > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
              with the
              > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
              relative to
              > our Church's.
              >
              > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
              of the
              > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
              Church,
              > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
              obedience
              > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
              confuse time?
              > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
              If not,
              > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
              >
              > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
              priests from
              > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
              heard by
              > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
              they did
              > not obey.
              >
              > In Christ,
              >
              > Vladimir Kozyreff
            • boulia_1
              Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO intervention (i.e. act of War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of Serbia, where a
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                cathedral several years back.

                Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                Shanghai/S.F.).

                To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                In Christ's love,
                Elizabeth

                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                very
                > knowledgeable and respected person.
                >
                > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                position.
                >
                > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                Abroad of
                > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                four-day
                > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                The
                > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                co-celebrated
                > with Serbian priests.
                >
                > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                Churches.
                > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                can we
                > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                the
                > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                relative to
                > our Church's.
                >
                > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                of the
                > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                Church,
                > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                obedience
                > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                confuse time?
                > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                If not,
                > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                >
                > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                from
                > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                heard by
                > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                they did
                > not obey.
                >
                > In Christ,
                >
                > Vladimir Kozyreff
              • Kiril Bart
                Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent person from holding and using firearms, or any other weapons. Try to be more realistic. Subdeacon Kirill P.S.
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                  Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                  person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                  weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                  Subdeacon Kirill
                  P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                  crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                  --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                  > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                  > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                  > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                  > Orthodox people of
                  > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                  > terrorist Albanians has
                  > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                  > their Serb victims,
                  > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                  > cross themselves!
                  >
                  > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                  > similarly and just as
                  > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                  > serve in the SF
                  > cathedral several years back.
                  >
                  > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                  > the important and
                  > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                  > protecting their Orthodox
                  > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                  > most esteemed
                  > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                  > John of
                  > Shanghai/S.F.).
                  >
                  > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                  > the most pious of
                  > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                  > and among the
                  > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                  > understand this
                  > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                  > fault.
                  >
                  > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                  > brother's eye, but
                  > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                  > Thou hypocrite,
                  > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                  > then shalt thou see
                  > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                  > brother's eye."
                  >
                  > In Christ's love,
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                  > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                  > Mark describe a
                  > very
                  > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                  > >
                  > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                  > insist that he looks
                  > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                  > about his
                  > position.
                  > >
                  > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                  > Orthodox Church
                  > Abroad of
                  > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                  > Serbia " describes a
                  > four-day
                  > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                  > till February, 8/21.
                  > The
                  > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                  > in which he
                  > co-celebrated
                  > > with Serbian priests.
                  > >
                  > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                  > World Council of
                  > Churches.
                  > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                  > church in1983. How
                  > can we
                  > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                  > Mark's communion with
                  > the
                  > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                  > Mark's position
                  > relative to
                  > > our Church's.
                  > >
                  > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                  > following the line
                  > of the
                  > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                  > disobedience to the
                  > Church,
                  > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                  > incidently teaches
                  > obedience
                  > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                  > of an already
                  > confuse time?
                  > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                  > movement? Or not?
                  > If not,
                  > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                  > >
                  > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                  > meantime, 12 priests
                  > from
                  > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                  > without having been
                  > heard by
                  > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                  > believers, except that
                  > they did
                  > > not obey.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ,
                  > >
                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
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                • Ledkovsky, Nina
                  Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim s way of spitting at the Orthodox. It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well... -Nina Ledkovsky ...
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                    Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim's way of spitting at the Orthodox.
                    It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well...
                    -Nina Ledkovsky

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:11 PM
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                    Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                    person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                    weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                    Subdeacon Kirill
                    P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                    crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                    --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                    > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                    > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                    > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                    > Orthodox people of
                    > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                    > terrorist Albanians has
                    > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                    > their Serb victims,
                    > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                    > cross themselves!
                    >
                    > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                    > similarly and just as
                    > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                    > serve in the SF
                    > cathedral several years back.
                    >
                    > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                    > the important and
                    > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                    > protecting their Orthodox
                    > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                    > most esteemed
                    > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                    > John of
                    > Shanghai/S.F.).
                    >
                    > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                    > the most pious of
                    > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                    > and among the
                    > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                    > understand this
                    > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                    > fault.
                    >
                    > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                    > brother's eye, but
                    > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                    > Thou hypocrite,
                    > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                    > then shalt thou see
                    > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                    > brother's eye."
                    >
                    > In Christ's love,
                    > Elizabeth
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                    > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                    > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                    > Mark describe a
                    > very
                    > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                    > >
                    > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                    > insist that he looks
                    > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                    > about his
                    > position.
                    > >
                    > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                    > Orthodox Church
                    > Abroad of
                    > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                    > Serbia " describes a
                    > four-day
                    > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                    > till February, 8/21.
                    > The
                    > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                    > in which he
                    > co-celebrated
                    > > with Serbian priests.
                    > >
                    > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                    > World Council of
                    > Churches.
                    > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                    > church in1983. How
                    > can we
                    > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                    > Mark's communion with
                    > the
                    > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                    > Mark's position
                    > relative to
                    > > our Church's.
                    > >
                    > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                    > following the line
                    > of the
                    > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                    > disobedience to the
                    > Church,
                    > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                    > incidently teaches
                    > obedience
                    > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                    > of an already
                    > confuse time?
                    > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                    > movement? Or not?
                    > If not,
                    > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                    > >
                    > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                    > meantime, 12 priests
                    > from
                    > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                    > without having been
                    > heard by
                    > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                    > believers, except that
                    > they did
                    > > not obey.
                    > >
                    > > In Christ,
                    > >
                    > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • vladimir kozyreff
                    Dear Elisabeth, I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                      Dear Elisabeth,

                      I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to
                      people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this case),
                      makes you turn a
                      blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you are right,
                      because
                      you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam and the
                      splinter).
                      However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion) before
                      your "dukhovnost'"
                      (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                      For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                      limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen outside the
                      limits of the
                      Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute respect for
                      His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth. Failure
                      to
                      respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and ecumenism.
                      As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                      faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In Judaism, people
                      do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism originated in an
                      adulteration of the creed,
                      which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers are the
                      last faithful.
                      The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most sacred duty
                      is to preserve it.
                      This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on us.

                      Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world. The world
                      is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold the
                      truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus the
                      natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes differently
                      from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of respect.
                      Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.

                      As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of the
                      Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our brothers does
                      not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of offending
                      them, on the contrary:

                      1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because they are
                      particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because they have
                      endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish, since
                      the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know that
                      the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                      2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help them to
                      overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                      are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must show
                      understanding,
                      nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                      This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from the
                      devil
                      that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but saving them.
                      3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is not an
                      aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary, in
                      denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is like a
                      physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured if those
                      beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                      4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the heresy
                      in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but one of
                      humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our Church
                      is right
                      and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and we
                      believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught by our
                      Church.
                      5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be helped out
                      too.
                      If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                      in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the heresy
                      in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                      Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have communion with
                      heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is the
                      person we love most, more than any human.

                      In Christ's love,
                      Vladimir Kozyreff
                      -----Message d'origine-----
                      De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                      Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                      A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                      Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                      War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                      Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                      been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                      so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                      Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                      ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                      cathedral several years back.

                      Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                      salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                      brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                      hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                      Shanghai/S.F.).

                      To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                      people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                      closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                      desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                      "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                      perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                      cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                      clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                      In Christ's love,
                      Elizabeth

                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                      > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                      very
                      > knowledgeable and respected person.
                      >
                      > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                      > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                      position.
                      >
                      > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                      Abroad of
                      > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                      four-day
                      > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                      The
                      > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                      co-celebrated
                      > with Serbian priests.
                      >
                      > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                      Churches.
                      > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                      can we
                      > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                      the
                      > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                      relative to
                      > our Church's.
                      >
                      > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                      of the
                      > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                      Church,
                      > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                      obedience
                      > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                      confuse time?
                      > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                      If not,
                      > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                      >
                      > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                      from
                      > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                      heard by
                      > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                      they did
                      > not obey.
                      >
                      > In Christ,
                      >
                      > Vladimir Kozyreff




                      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Hristofor
                      To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued a we are no longer in communion with Serbia ukase (If someone knows to the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                        To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                        a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                        the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                        were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                        Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                        with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                        Hristofor

                        At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                        >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                        >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                        >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                        >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                        >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                        >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                        >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                        >with.
                        >
                        >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                        >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                        >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                        >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                        >
                        >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                        >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                        >
                        >Joseph
                        >
                        >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                        ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                        >very
                        > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                        > >
                        > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                        > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                        >position.
                        > >
                        > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                        >Abroad of
                        > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                        >four-day
                        > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                        >8/21. The
                        > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                        >celebrated
                        > > with Serbian priests.
                        > >
                        > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                        >Churches.
                        > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                        >can we
                        > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                        >with the
                        > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                        >relative to
                        > > our Church's.
                        > >
                        > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                        >of the
                        > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                        >Church,
                        > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                        >obedience
                        > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                        >confuse time?
                        > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                        >If not,
                        > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                        > >
                        > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                        >priests from
                        > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                        >heard by
                        > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                        >they did
                        > > not obey.
                        > >
                        > > In Christ,
                        > >
                        > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Michael Nikitin
                        The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued. All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it. MN From: Hristofor Reply-To:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                          The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued.
                          All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it.

                          MN

                          From: Hristofor <hristofor@...>
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
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                          To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                          a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                          the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                          were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                          Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                          with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                          Hristofor

                          At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                          >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                          >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                          >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                          >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                          >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                          >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                          >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                          >with.
                          >
                          >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                          >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                          >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                          >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                          >
                          >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                          >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                          >
                          >Joseph
                          >
                          >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                          ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                          > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                          >very
                          > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                          > >
                          > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                          > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                          >position.
                          > >
                          > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                          >Abroad of
                          > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                          >four-day
                          > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                          >8/21. The
                          > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                          >celebrated
                          > > with Serbian priests.
                          > >
                          > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                          >Churches.
                          > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                          >can we
                          > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                          >with the
                          > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                          >relative to
                          > > our Church's.
                          > >
                          > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                          >of the
                          > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                          >Church,
                          > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                          >obedience
                          > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                          >confuse time?
                          > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                          >If not,
                          > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                          > >
                          > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                          >priests from
                          > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                          >heard by
                          > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                          >they did
                          > > not obey.
                          > >
                          > > In Christ,
                          > >
                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >

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                        • Michael Nikitin
                          It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                            It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem
                            if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is
                            the Serbian Church that does not want to be in communion with it's brethren
                            by being involved with the heretical organization WCC.
                            Fr.Justin Popovich a much revered Father of the Serbian Church called the
                            WCC a prostitute.
                            No one cares that the Church is in the heretical organization?

                            MN


                            From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
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                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
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                            FILETIME=[657A44D0:01C216C7]

                            Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                            War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                            Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                            been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                            so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                            Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                            ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                            cathedral several years back.

                            Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                            salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                            brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                            hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                            Shanghai/S.F.).

                            To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                            people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                            closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                            desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                            "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                            perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                            cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                            clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                            In Christ's love,
                            Elizabeth

                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                            > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                            very
                            > knowledgeable and respected person.
                            >
                            > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                            > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                            position.
                            >
                            > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                            Abroad of
                            > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                            four-day
                            > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                            The
                            > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                            co-celebrated
                            > with Serbian priests.
                            >
                            > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                            Churches.
                            > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                            can we
                            > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                            the
                            > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                            relative to
                            > our Church's.
                            >
                            > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                            of the
                            > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                            Church,
                            > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                            obedience
                            > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                            confuse time?
                            > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                            If not,
                            > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                            >
                            > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                            from
                            > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                            heard by
                            > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                            they did
                            > not obey.
                            >
                            > In Christ,
                            >
                            > Vladimir Kozyreff



                            _________________________________________________________________
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                          • goossir
                            This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is worthwhile reading.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                              This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our
                              church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is
                              worthwhile reading.

                              Yours in Christ
                              Irina


                              News Release


                              Divisions within Orthodox church abroad

                              CHURCH ABROAD ON BRINK OF SCHISM

                              by Alexander Soldatov
                              Nezavisimaia gazeta--religiia


                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ----------

                              15 April 1998

                              Attempts at dialogue with Moscow patriarchate provoke sharp criticism

                              The past year has brought many trials to the Russian Orthodox Church
                              Abroad (RPTsZ), headed by the 88-year-old primate Metropolitan Vitaly
                              Ustinov. RPTsZ lost the Holy Trinity monastery in Hebron, which was
                              turned over by the Palestinian authority to the Russian Orthodox
                              church of the Moscow Patriarch (RPTs MP), and the Saint Nicholas
                              cathedral church in Montreal, in all likelihood torched by unknown
                              antagonists. Archprist Alexander Zharkov, a prominent RPTsZ priest in
                              St. Petersburg, and Iosif Munoz Cortes, the curator of the greatest
                              shrine of the Russian emigration, the Iverian Myrrh-streaming icon of
                              the Mother of God, perished at the hands of bandits. The icon itself
                              disappeared and its location is unknown. This spring, by decision of
                              Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany was
                              expelled from the bishops' synod of RPTsZ. [Archbishop Mark's
                              response]

                              It is not surprising that these sad events, viewed by many in RPTsZ
                              as the "end of the world," became the catalyst for processes of
                              internal division among the clergy and flock of the Russian
                              emigration on the question of mutual relations with RPTsMP. It may be
                              strange, but the part of RPTsZ that was most politicized in the past
                              has become the most active advocates of rapprochement and even
                              unification with the Mother church after the fall of USSR and the
                              democratic reforms in Russia. The aging priests in Europe and America
                              and parishioners from among the first and part of the second "wave"
                              of emigration are hoping to live to see the "desired unification." We
                              recall that the distinguished arch-presbyter Alexander Kiselev, a
                              pastor who is extremely authoritative and popular within RPTsZ and
                              the long-time clergyman of the synodal cathedral in New York, has
                              moved toward an open rupture with Metropolitan Vitaly because of his
                              burning love for the motherland and for Patriarch Alexis II
                              personally.

                              By way of contrast, the new generation, especially the so-called
                              converts (Protestants and Catholics who have transferred into
                              Orthodoxy) speak about the dogmatic and canonical differences between
                              RPTsZ and RPTsMP that prevent unification. But every rule is
                              extremely approximate and reflects reality only relatively. An open
                              protagonist of the process of reconciliation with the Mother church
                              in RPTsZ is the sometime "convert," an ethnic German who converted to
                              Orthodoxy, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany. In his time
                              Archbishop Mark, an activist in the National Labor Union, was
                              extremely radical in his negative attitude toward USSR and
                              the "soviet church."

                              Judging by the tendency of the publications of the "Vestnik of the
                              German Diocese," edited by Master Mark, his attitude began to change
                              in 1993. It is obvious that the archbishop suffered profoundly for
                              the failures of RPTsZ in Russia, the alliance of the synodal
                              representative Bishop Varnava with Vasilev's "Pamiat" organization,
                              and conflicts among bishops. These experiences forced him to turn his
                              face toward RPTsMP.

                              Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                              ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                              RPTsZ and RPTsMP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                              (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                              basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                              declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                              the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                              division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                              abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                              circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                              diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared."

                              It is clear that the authors of the declaration are simplifying the
                              historical facts extremely: the line of the church division by no
                              means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                              declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                              sacraments. However in practice such a recognition is absent.
                              Existing precedents of a transfer into RPTsMP of clergy from RPTsZ in
                              Russia (e.g., Oleg Steniaev and Dimitry Goltsev), when they were
                              reordained to the clerical rank (in the case of Steniaev the
                              ordination was performed by the patriarch himself), testify to the
                              nonrecognition of the sacraments of RPTsZ. On the other hand,
                              Metropolitan Vitaly in his letter to Archbishop Mark in December 1996
                              directly declared that the time had come for a declaration to the
                              world of the "lack of grace in the Moscow patriarchate." It is
                              natural that the publication of this document evoked a storm of
                              responses within RPTsZ and beyond its boundaries. Already in December
                              1996, when Archbishop Mark met Patriarch Alexis II in Moscow, the
                              most radical opponents of the activity of the German bishop accused
                              him of rapprochement with "Sergians." This included in first place
                              Metropolitan Vitaly himself, who sent to Archbishop Mark an extremely
                              sharp indictment in which he declared that he had fallen into
                              spiritual illness. Archbishop Mark also was indirectly condemned by
                              clergy of the West European diocese, who distributed an open letter
                              against reconciliation with RPTsMP, over the signatures of Bishop
                              Varnava Rokofev of Cannes and 14 priests. No less sharp was the
                              reaction in Russia at the time. Russian parishes of RPTsZ which had
                              just broken with the patriarchate had no desire to admit to
                              error. "We are for unification," wrote, in particular, the Russian
                              members of the brotherhood of Saint Iov of Pochaev, "but not at any
                              price. No price is worth betrayal and contempt for truth." Fr Stefan
                              Krasovitsky, head of the RPTsZ mission in Russia, even sundered
                              prayer fellowship with Archbishop Mark, considering him "in no way
                              better that a Sergian." Archbishop Mark's enthusiastic impressions of
                              Chisty Lane evoked a certain amazement even among the conservative
                              circles of RPTsMP.

                              As at that time, so in the present case of the publication of the
                              joint declaration Metropolitan Vitaly was the first to respond. In
                              his letter of 6 February of this year he reminded Archbishop Mark
                              that no one had given him authority "to conduct these conversations."
                              The patient primate decided to resort to punishment: he expelled
                              Archbishop Mark from the bishop's synod of RPTsZ.

                              Archbishop Mark wrote a rather sharp retort, addressed to all bishops
                              of RPTsZ, in which he accused the metropolitan of inability to
                              administer the church and, in essence, called for his removal. The
                              only bishops, besides the metropolitan, who decided to speak openly
                              against Archbishop Mark, who has acquired influence within RPTsZ, was
                              the young bishop of Seattle, Kirill, vicar of the North American
                              diocese, whose voice earlier had not been very much noticed. He
                              delivered a devastating assessment of the joint declaration: "I am
                              profoundly convinced that this declaration is an irresponsible
                              collection of demagogic sentences that do not contain a single
                              healthy idea which would lead to the resolution of the numerous
                              ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox church at the end of
                              the twentieth century."

                              And so, the circle of opponents of Archbishop Mark's line in RPTsZ
                              has been approximately set. There is Metropolitan Vitaly, vicar
                              bishops Varnava and Kirill, the conservative clergy of West European
                              diocese, practically all the Russian clergy of RPTsZ and "converts"
                              (mostly Americans). Among the supporters of master Mark no one
                              actively has declared himself so it is possible to draw conclusions
                              only by indirect indicators. Obviously, that number includes several
                              influential synodal bishops, whose support gives the German bishop
                              confidence, the aging liberal Russian clergy (mostly in America and
                              Australia) and, of course, clergy of the German diocese. Between
                              these relative camps a fault line has formed, threatening in the near
                              future to reveal to the world new branches of Russian Orthodoxy.
                              Several observers from among clergy and laity of RPTsZ in Russia
                              confirm that at this council the question of Metropolitan Vitaly's
                              retirement will serve as a cutting edge. If that is so, then they
                              must be correct who affirm that the extraordinary effort for
                              overcoming the schism, in accordance with the law of the dialectic,
                              will inevitably result in a new schism.

                              (tr. by P D Steeves, Stetson University)
                              http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews


                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ----------

                              Previous Article | Next Article
                            • vladimir kozyreff
                              http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm October 15/ 28, 1986 The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had become the leader of 300
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm

                                October 15/ 28, 1986
                                The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had
                                become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president of the
                                World Council of Churches.
                                under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory,
                                was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our Synodal
                                bishops.
                                The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                ecumenism in word and deed..
                                .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under our
                                Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal truth
                                remains constant and unchanging.
                                If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because we share
                                the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that we point
                                out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to condone their
                                violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never condoned
                                doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution, cannot
                                determine what the Church teaches.

                                In God

                                Vladimir Kozyreff

                                -----Message d'origine-----
                                De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                Hristofor

                                At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                >with.
                                >
                                >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                >
                                >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                >
                                >Joseph
                                >
                                >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                >very
                                > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                > >
                                > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                >position.
                                > >
                                > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                >Abroad of
                                > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                >four-day
                                > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                >8/21. The
                                > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                >celebrated
                                > > with Serbian priests.
                                > >
                                > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                >Churches.
                                > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                >can we
                                > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                >with the
                                > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                >relative to
                                > > our Church's.
                                > >
                                > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                >of the
                                > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                >Church,
                                > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                >obedience
                                > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                >confuse time?
                                > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                >If not,
                                > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                > >
                                > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                >priests from
                                > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                >heard by
                                > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                >they did
                                > > not obey.
                                > >
                                > > In Christ,
                                > >
                                > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



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                              • vladimir kozyreff
                                Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                  Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics

                                  Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles

                                  "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                  heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service
                                  as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

                                  Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:

                                  "If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to
                                  pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

                                  Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)

                                  "Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed
                                  to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for
                                  the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if
                                  they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time
                                  until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be
                                  readmitted to communion."

                                  Canon XXXIII of Laodicia

                                  "One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

                                  In God,

                                  Vladimir Kozyreff


                                  -----Message d'origine-----
                                  De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                  Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                  A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                  To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                  a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                  the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                  were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                  Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                  with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                  Hristofor

                                  At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                  >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                  >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                  >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                  >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                  >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                  >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                  >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                  >with.
                                  >
                                  >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                  >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                  >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                  >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                  >
                                  >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                  >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                  >
                                  >Joseph
                                  >
                                  >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                  ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                  > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                  >very
                                  > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                  > >
                                  > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                  > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                  >position.
                                  > >
                                  > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                  >Abroad of
                                  > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                  >four-day
                                  > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                  >8/21. The
                                  > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                  >celebrated
                                  > > with Serbian priests.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                  >Churches.
                                  > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                  >can we
                                  > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                  >with the
                                  > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                  >relative to
                                  > > our Church's.
                                  > >
                                  > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                  >of the
                                  > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                  >Church,
                                  > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                  >obedience
                                  > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                  >confuse time?
                                  > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                  >If not,
                                  > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                  > >
                                  > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                  >priests from
                                  > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                  >heard by
                                  > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                  >they did
                                  > > not obey.
                                  > >
                                  > > In Christ,
                                  > >
                                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • boulia_1
                                  Dear Vladimir and Irina, With all due respect, I d prefer to err on the side of dushevnost then! Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                    Dear Vladimir and Irina,

                                    With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                    then!

                                    Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                    Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                    according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face of
                                    all his errors, and indeed, he received it.

                                    Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                    God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                    Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.

                                    As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against Vladyka
                                    Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                    regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                    punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                    because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                    and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                    because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                    Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly often
                                    seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or total
                                    carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                    would not have this mess today.

                                    Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who are
                                    the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                    was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                    deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used to
                                    give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                    they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                    his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                    right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                    around now...


                                    I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                    sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.

                                    In Christ's love,
                                    Elizabeth

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                    <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                    > Dear Elisabeth,
                                    >
                                    > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion
                                    to
                                    > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                    case),
                                    > makes you turn a
                                    > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                    are right,
                                    > because
                                    > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam
                                    and the
                                    > splinter).
                                    > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion)
                                    before
                                    > your "dukhovnost'"
                                    > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                    > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                    > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                    outside the
                                    > limits of the
                                    > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                    respect for
                                    > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth.
                                    Failure
                                    > to
                                    > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                    ecumenism.
                                    > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                    > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                    Judaism, people
                                    > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                    originated in an
                                    > adulteration of the creed,
                                    > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                    are the
                                    > last faithful.
                                    > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                    sacred duty
                                    > is to preserve it.
                                    > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                    us.
                                    >
                                    > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world.
                                    The world
                                    > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold
                                    the
                                    > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus
                                    the
                                    > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                    differently
                                    > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of
                                    respect.
                                    > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                    >
                                    > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of
                                    the
                                    > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                    brothers does
                                    > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                    offending
                                    > them, on the contrary:
                                    >
                                    > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                    they are
                                    > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                    they have
                                    > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish,
                                    since
                                    > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know
                                    that
                                    > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                    > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                    them to
                                    > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                    > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must
                                    show
                                    > understanding,
                                    > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                                    > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from
                                    the
                                    > devil
                                    > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                    saving them.
                                    > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                    not an
                                    > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary,
                                    in
                                    > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is
                                    like a
                                    > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured
                                    if those
                                    > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                    > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                    heresy
                                    > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but
                                    one of
                                    > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our
                                    Church
                                    > is right
                                    > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and
                                    we
                                    > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught
                                    by our
                                    > Church.
                                    > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be
                                    helped out
                                    > too.
                                    > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                                    > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                    heresy
                                    > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                    > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                    communion with
                                    > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is
                                    the
                                    > person we love most, more than any human.
                                    >
                                    > In Christ's love,
                                    > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                    > -----Message d'origine-----
                                    > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                    > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                    > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                    > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                    > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people
                                    of
                                    > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                    has
                                    > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                    victims,
                                    > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                    >
                                    > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                    > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                    > cathedral several years back.
                                    >
                                    > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                    > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                    Orthodox
                                    > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                    > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                    > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                    >
                                    > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious
                                    of
                                    > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                    > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                    > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                    >
                                    > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye,
                                    but
                                    > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                    > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                    see
                                    > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                    >
                                    > In Christ's love,
                                    > Elizabeth
                                    >
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                    > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                    > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                    > very
                                    > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                    > >
                                    > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                    looks
                                    > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                    > position.
                                    > >
                                    > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                    > Abroad of
                                    > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes
                                    a
                                    > four-day
                                    > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                    8/21.
                                    > The
                                    > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                    > co-celebrated
                                    > > with Serbian priests.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                    > Churches.
                                    > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                    How
                                    > can we
                                    > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                    with
                                    > the
                                    > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                    > relative to
                                    > > our Church's.
                                    > >
                                    > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                    line
                                    > of the
                                    > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                    > Church,
                                    > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                    > obedience
                                    > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                    > confuse time?
                                    > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                    > If not,
                                    > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                    > >
                                    > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                    priests
                                    > from
                                    > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                    been
                                    > heard by
                                    > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                    that
                                    > they did
                                    > > not obey.
                                    > >
                                    > > In Christ,
                                    > >
                                    > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  • vkozyreff
                                    Dear Elisabeth, Regarding the temptation to prefer one s brothers and sisters to God, here is what Christ told us: Anyone who loves his father or mother more
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 20, 2002
                                      Dear Elisabeth,

                                      Regarding the temptation to prefer one's brothers and sisters to God,
                                      here is what Christ told us:

                                      "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of
                                      me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy
                                      of me; (Matthew 10:36-38).

                                      There can be no choice between loving God and loving one's neighbour,
                                      since no love to God can exist without love to the neighbour.

                                      There is a constant confusion between accusing the neighbour of
                                      committing a sin, which is not what we should do, and recognising
                                      that his action is bad, which is what we should do. If you see me
                                      commiting a crime, you must proclaim that you disapprove what I did
                                      and that what I committed is a crime. Doing this is not sinning by
                                      pride and is not claiming a reward for not committing the crime that
                                      I comitted.

                                      Stating that the Sergianists are wrong is not committing a sin of
                                      pride either. Will you accuse the Synod of committing a sin in
                                      denouncing their betrayal of God? This has nothing to do with the
                                      parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

                                      The Pharisees have crucified Christ, as have the Sergianists. We hold
                                      that separating oneself from God and His martyrs, as the Sergianists
                                      did, is wrong. We may not have communion with those who crucified the
                                      martyrs and still claim that it was right to do so. Refusing this
                                      communion is not being a Pharisee but being a humble servant of God
                                      and doing what he has commanded us to do.

                                      In God,

                                      Vladimir Kozyreff





                                      -- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                      > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                      >
                                      > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                      > then!
                                      >
                                      > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                      > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                      > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                      of
                                      > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                      >
                                      > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                      > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                      > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                      >
                                      > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                      Vladyka
                                      > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                      > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                      > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                      > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                      > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                      > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                      > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                      often
                                      > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                      total
                                      > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                      > would not have this mess today.
                                      >
                                      > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                      are
                                      > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                      > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                      > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                      to
                                      > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                      > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                      > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                      > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                      > around now...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                      > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                      >
                                      > In Christ's love,
                                      > Elizabeth
                                      >
                                      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                      > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                      > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                      > >
                                      > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                      compassion
                                      > to
                                      > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                      > case),
                                      > > makes you turn a
                                      > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                      > are right,
                                      > > because
                                      > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                      beam
                                      > and the
                                      > > splinter).
                                      > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                      compassion)
                                      > before
                                      > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                      > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                      > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                      > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                      > outside the
                                      > > limits of the
                                      > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                      > respect for
                                      > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                      Truth.
                                      > Failure
                                      > > to
                                      > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                      > ecumenism.
                                      > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                      > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                      > Judaism, people
                                      > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                      > originated in an
                                      > > adulteration of the creed,
                                      > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                      > are the
                                      > > last faithful.
                                      > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                      > sacred duty
                                      > > is to preserve it.
                                      > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                      > us.
                                      > >
                                      > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                      world.
                                      > The world
                                      > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                      hold
                                      > the
                                      > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                      thus
                                      > the
                                      > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                      > differently
                                      > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                      of
                                      > respect.
                                      > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                      > >
                                      > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                      of
                                      > the
                                      > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                      > brothers does
                                      > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                      > offending
                                      > > them, on the contrary:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                      > they are
                                      > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                      > they have
                                      > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                      parish,
                                      > since
                                      > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                      know
                                      > that
                                      > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                      > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                      > them to
                                      > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                      > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                      must
                                      > show
                                      > > understanding,
                                      > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                      ourselves.
                                      > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                      from
                                      > the
                                      > > devil
                                      > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                      > saving them.
                                      > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                      > not an
                                      > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                      contrary,
                                      > in
                                      > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                      is
                                      > like a
                                      > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                      cured
                                      > if those
                                      > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                      > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                      > heresy
                                      > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                      but
                                      > one of
                                      > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                      our
                                      > Church
                                      > > is right
                                      > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                      and
                                      > we
                                      > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                      taught
                                      > by our
                                      > > Church.
                                      > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                      be
                                      > helped out
                                      > > too.
                                      > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                      sisters
                                      > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                      > heresy
                                      > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                      > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                      > communion with
                                      > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                      is
                                      > the
                                      > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                      > >
                                      > > In Christ's love,
                                      > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                      > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                      > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                      > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                      > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                      > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                      of
                                      > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                      people
                                      > of
                                      > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                      > has
                                      > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                      > victims,
                                      > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                      > >
                                      > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                      as
                                      > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                      SF
                                      > > cathedral several years back.
                                      > >
                                      > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                      and
                                      > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                      > Orthodox
                                      > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                      > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                      > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                      > >
                                      > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                      pious
                                      > of
                                      > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                      > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                      > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                      > >
                                      > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                      eye,
                                      > but
                                      > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                      hypocrite,
                                      > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                      > see
                                      > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                      > >
                                      > > In Christ's love,
                                      > > Elizabeth
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                      > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                      > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                      describe a
                                      > > very
                                      > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                      > looks
                                      > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                      > > position.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                      Church
                                      > > Abroad of
                                      > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                      describes
                                      > a
                                      > > four-day
                                      > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                      > 8/21.
                                      > > The
                                      > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                      > > co-celebrated
                                      > > > with Serbian priests.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                      > > Churches.
                                      > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                      > How
                                      > > can we
                                      > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                      > with
                                      > > the
                                      > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                      > > relative to
                                      > > > our Church's.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                      > line
                                      > > of the
                                      > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                      > > Church,
                                      > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                      > > obedience
                                      > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                      > > confuse time?
                                      > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                      not?
                                      > > If not,
                                      > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                      > priests
                                      > > from
                                      > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                      > been
                                      > > heard by
                                      > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                      > that
                                      > > they did
                                      > > > not obey.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In Christ,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • vkozyreff
                                      Dear Irina, dear List, We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, : Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been ongoing
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                        Dear Irina, dear List,

                                        We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, :

                                        "Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                                        ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                                        ROCOR and MP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                                        (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                                        basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                                        declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                                        the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                                        division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                                        abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                                        circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                                        diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared. It is clear that
                                        the authors of the declaration are simplifying the historical facts
                                        extremely: the line of the church division by no
                                        means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                                        declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                                        sacraments."

                                        Vl Mark held those talks and made that declaration without the
                                        blessing of the Metropolitan, I think. I do not think the last
                                        statement reflects our Church's position. Please correct me if I am
                                        wrong.

                                        As we all remember, and as can be found in our Church new webwsite,
                                        however, Vl Gabriel wrote the following about Igumen Joachim had
                                        unapproved contacts with the MP and was subsequently excluded from
                                        our Church. How do we reconcile these events?

                                        "… Fr. Joachim made several trips to Russia, meeting with
                                        Metropolitan Kirill, the chairman of the M.P.'s Department of
                                        External Church Affairs, and later with the Patriarch himself. When
                                        Fr. Joachim states that he received a blessing to travel to Russia,
                                        this also does not correspond to the truth. …

                                        Fr. Joachim also mentions that he made a second trip, having received
                                        an invitation from Metropolitan Kirill. He knew that he would not
                                        have received a blessing for such a trip. Thus, referring to an
                                        authority which no one had ever given him, Fr. Joachim again
                                        travelled for an official meeting with representatives of the M.P.

                                        The main reason for Fr. Joachim's suspension were the trips and
                                        meetings he made without hierarchical blessing.

                                        Before Fr. Joachim left, I asked him whether he truly believed that
                                        now was the time to unite with all the local Orthodox Churches, when
                                        the majority of them continue to depart from the Truth and from
                                        traditional Orthodoxy. In reply to this, he said that we need to be
                                        in communion with everyone."

                                        In God,

                                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                                        http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Y4-
                                        u4FBRtkQC:www.synod.com/letters/2001-10-20-reply-of-b-gabriel-to-fr-
                                        joachim.html+joachim+parr+russian+orthodox&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
                                      • vkozyreff
                                        Dear List, Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                          Dear List,

                                          Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.

                                          "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked
                                          down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up
                                          to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
                                          11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1] himself: 'God, I thank
                                          you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or
                                          even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth
                                          of all I get.'
                                          13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look
                                          up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a
                                          sinner.'
                                          14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home
                                          justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be
                                          humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

                                          I do not think the parable applies here. We are not proud not to be
                                          like the Sergianists. We do not expect any reward. We just look for
                                          God. Is He with those who betrayed Christ or with those who gave
                                          their life for Him? We are humbly obeying the Church. The Sergianists
                                          do not believe in Christ, since they believe and claim that His
                                          Church needed the intervention of Satan (lies, heresy) to be saved.

                                          Moreover, they expelled from their "Church" those who gave their
                                          lives for Christ's Truth. The parable does not give us as an example
                                          to follow a Publican who gives to the executioner those who
                                          acknowledge Christ before men, neither a Publican who claims this is
                                          the right thing to do. What saves man is his faith in Christ.

                                          Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
                                          (Luke 7:49-51)

                                          The choice is not between the MP and us. We are not part of the
                                          equation. The choice is between the two ways Russians faced the
                                          communist persecutions.
                                          - the Sergianists who betrayed Christ by claiming He needed a hand
                                          from the devil to rescue his Church and
                                          - those who acknowledged Christ in front of men and gave their life
                                          for Christ. That is the millions of martyrs that the Sergianists have
                                          insulted as "counterrevolutionaries" and who indeed have saved the
                                          Church by their faith in Christ.

                                          This being said, we must remember that nobody is obligated to be a
                                          martyr and that anything can be obtained from anybody by torture. So
                                          I do not condemn those who were not strong enough to resist (I,
                                          sinner, would not have resisted), but we may say the stand taken by
                                          Vl Sergii was wrong, even if obtained by torture.

                                          Let me plead for Ms Roznianskaya. She is not infamous. She certainly
                                          did commit mistakes, of which we all suffered. We will be judged as
                                          we judge. I know I will need mercy on the day of the last judgement,
                                          that is why I insist here. We must not insult her. As you know, she
                                          is now co-operating with the Synod about V. Vitaly's return, which
                                          leads to believe that she confessed and was already pardoned by God.
                                          Pardoned, that is as though the sin that we committed never took
                                          place.
                                          "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a
                                          stone at her." (John 8:6-8)"

                                          In Christ's love,

                                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                          > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                          >
                                          > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                          > then!
                                          >
                                          > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                          > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                          > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                          of
                                          > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                          >
                                          > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                          > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                          > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                          >
                                          > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                          Vladyka
                                          > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                          > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                          > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                          > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                          > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                          > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                          > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                          often
                                          > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                          total
                                          > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                          > would not have this mess today.
                                          >
                                          > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                          are
                                          > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                          > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                          > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                          to
                                          > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                          > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                          > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                          > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                          > around now...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                          > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                          >
                                          > In Christ's love,
                                          > Elizabeth
                                          >
                                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                          > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                          > >
                                          > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                          compassion
                                          > to
                                          > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                          > case),
                                          > > makes you turn a
                                          > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                          > are right,
                                          > > because
                                          > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                          beam
                                          > and the
                                          > > splinter).
                                          > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                          compassion)
                                          > before
                                          > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                          > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                          > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                          > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                          > outside the
                                          > > limits of the
                                          > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                          > respect for
                                          > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                          Truth.
                                          > Failure
                                          > > to
                                          > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                          > ecumenism.
                                          > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                          > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                          > Judaism, people
                                          > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                          > originated in an
                                          > > adulteration of the creed,
                                          > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                          > are the
                                          > > last faithful.
                                          > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                          > sacred duty
                                          > > is to preserve it.
                                          > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                          > us.
                                          > >
                                          > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                          world.
                                          > The world
                                          > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                          hold
                                          > the
                                          > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                          thus
                                          > the
                                          > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                          > differently
                                          > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                          of
                                          > respect.
                                          > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                          > >
                                          > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                          of
                                          > the
                                          > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                          > brothers does
                                          > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                          > offending
                                          > > them, on the contrary:
                                          > >
                                          > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                          > they are
                                          > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                          > they have
                                          > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                          parish,
                                          > since
                                          > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                          know
                                          > that
                                          > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                          > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                          > them to
                                          > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                          > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                          must
                                          > show
                                          > > understanding,
                                          > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                          ourselves.
                                          > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                          from
                                          > the
                                          > > devil
                                          > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                          > saving them.
                                          > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                          > not an
                                          > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                          contrary,
                                          > in
                                          > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                          is
                                          > like a
                                          > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                          cured
                                          > if those
                                          > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                          > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                          > heresy
                                          > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                          but
                                          > one of
                                          > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                          our
                                          > Church
                                          > > is right
                                          > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                          and
                                          > we
                                          > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                          taught
                                          > by our
                                          > > Church.
                                          > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                          be
                                          > helped out
                                          > > too.
                                          > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                          sisters
                                          > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                          > heresy
                                          > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                          > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                          > communion with
                                          > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                          is
                                          > the
                                          > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                          > >
                                          > > In Christ's love,
                                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                          > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                          > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                          > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                          > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                          of
                                          > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                          people
                                          > of
                                          > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                          > has
                                          > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                          > victims,
                                          > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                          > >
                                          > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                          as
                                          > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                          SF
                                          > > cathedral several years back.
                                          > >
                                          > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                          and
                                          > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                          > Orthodox
                                          > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                          > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                          > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                          > >
                                          > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                          pious
                                          > of
                                          > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                          > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                          > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                          > >
                                          > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                          eye,
                                          > but
                                          > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                          hypocrite,
                                          > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                          > see
                                          > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                          > >
                                          > > In Christ's love,
                                          > > Elizabeth
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                          > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                          describe a
                                          > > very
                                          > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                          > looks
                                          > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                          > > position.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                          Church
                                          > > Abroad of
                                          > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                          describes
                                          > a
                                          > > four-day
                                          > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                          > 8/21.
                                          > > The
                                          > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                          > > co-celebrated
                                          > > > with Serbian priests.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                          > > Churches.
                                          > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                          > How
                                          > > can we
                                          > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                          > with
                                          > > the
                                          > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                          > > relative to
                                          > > > our Church's.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                          > line
                                          > > of the
                                          > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                          > > Church,
                                          > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                          > > obedience
                                          > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                          > > confuse time?
                                          > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                          not?
                                          > > If not,
                                          > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                          > priests
                                          > > from
                                          > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                          > been
                                          > > heard by
                                          > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                          > that
                                          > > they did
                                          > > > not obey.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In Christ,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        • frmarkg
                                          There are various ways to get a list to address a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask a simple question and wait for a response, if there is any
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                            There are various ways to get a list to address
                                            a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask
                                            a simple question and wait for a response, if there
                                            is any interest. Such questions may arise from idle
                                            curiosity or from a real need to know, but it would
                                            be hard to characterize them as tactical.

                                            Another familiar way is in fact just a tactic. A
                                            person or persons who feel that others need to become
                                            aware of their own perspective on something will use
                                            a list to display their own views - initially in the
                                            form of a question (the bait) but the poster (the
                                            fisherman) may only be trolling for a little sport.

                                            I think it is apparent where this entire thread
                                            about Archbp Mark is leading. We have now gotten to
                                            Metropolitan Vitaly and his secretary. No doubt we
                                            will soon again be in the throes of a struggle on the
                                            grounds of Mansonville. And why? Because someone
                                            wanted to make some points that they feel you need to
                                            know.

                                            I think it is time to stop the multiple answers
                                            to unasked questions. This list is not meant to be
                                            a place where you can post polemics for many people
                                            to see. Unlike other lists, I will not restrict
                                            posting privileges just because someone asks a question
                                            about a controverisal topic - for the right reasons -
                                            but there is wisdom in not allowing a topic to dominate
                                            and set the tone on the list such that the average
                                            layman doesn't want to participate.

                                            This list has been, and I'm sure still is, the only
                                            readily accessible means for some members of our church
                                            to communicate with their co-religionists. Let's use
                                            it for the benefit of these who really need this list.

                                            Mark Markish coined a phrase on the ORTHODOX list
                                            many years ago to cover such situations. Rather than
                                            to take bait and cause a struggle to ensue, or to insult
                                            or otherwise demean someone who is being stupid in your
                                            eyes, simply "Politely ignore" them. If you see someone's
                                            arguments or manner as wrong, so does just about everyone
                                            else. It is not necessary to point this out and lower
                                            yourself in the process.

                                            But politely ignoring the undesitable doesn't mean
                                            to stay quiet - take advantage of this medium - don't
                                            leave a vacuum of non-participation into which will flow
                                            all sorts of undesirable things.

                                            In Christ,
                                            priest Mark
                                          • Tim Andrews
                                            Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to humbly make a
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                              Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                              followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                              humbly make a short note.

                                              Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                              of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                              the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                              received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                              share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                              signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                              be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                              example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                              co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                              "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                              Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                              there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                              would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                              make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                              law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                              in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                              Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                              conjunction with them as well.
                                              Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                              respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                              hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                              My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                              While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                              that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                              a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                              forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                              past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                              said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                              immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                              were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                              schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                              ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                              Forgive me if I have offended,
                                              Timothy Andrews
                                            • joeswaydyn2000
                                              Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position? ... had ... of the ... Memory, ... Synodal ... our ... truth ... we share ... we point ...
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position?

                                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                > http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm
                                                >
                                                > October 15/ 28, 1986
                                                > The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich,
                                                had
                                                > become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president
                                                of the
                                                > World Council of Churches.
                                                > under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed
                                                Memory,
                                                > was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our
                                                Synodal
                                                > bishops.
                                                > The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                                > ecumenism in word and deed..
                                                > .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under
                                                our
                                                > Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                                > Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal
                                                truth
                                                > remains constant and unchanging.
                                                > If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because
                                                we share
                                                > the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that
                                                we point
                                                > out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                                > The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to
                                                condone their
                                                > violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                                > Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never
                                                condoned
                                                > doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution,
                                                cannot
                                                > determine what the Church teaches.
                                                >
                                                > In God
                                                >
                                                > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                >
                                                > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                > De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@m...]
                                                > Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                                > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever
                                                formally issued
                                                > a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone
                                                knows to
                                                > the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist
                                                takeover, we
                                                > were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy
                                                under
                                                > Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no
                                                definitive break
                                                > with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.
                                                >
                                                > Hristofor
                                                >
                                                > At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                                > >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                                > >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                                > >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                                > >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                                > >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                                > >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration
                                                was
                                                > >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                                > >with.
                                                > >
                                                > >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                                > >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                                > >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                                > >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                                > >
                                                > >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                                > >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                                > >
                                                > >Joseph
                                                > >
                                                > >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                > ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                describe a
                                                > >very
                                                > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                looks
                                                > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                > >position.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                Church
                                                > >Abroad of
                                                > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                describes a
                                                > >four-day
                                                > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                > >8/21. The
                                                > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                co-
                                                > >celebrated
                                                > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                > >Churches.
                                                > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                How
                                                > >can we
                                                > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                > >with the
                                                > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                > >relative to
                                                > > > our Church's.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                line
                                                > >of the
                                                > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                > >Church,
                                                > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                > >obedience
                                                > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                > >confuse time?
                                                > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                not?
                                                > >If not,
                                                > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                > >priests from
                                                > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                been
                                                > >heard by
                                                > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                that
                                                > >they did
                                                > > > not obey.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In Christ,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              • Michael Nikitin
                                                When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn t serve with them no
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 23, 2002
                                                  When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve
                                                  with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn't serve with
                                                  them no matter if the others do. This is what they say when things are
                                                  unstable.
                                                  We have no reason for dialogue. They will not learn anything that they don't
                                                  already know. Our dialogue with them will only cause us to acquiesce to
                                                  ecumenism and the WCC. What's to stop us from having dialogue in the WCC?
                                                  After all maybe we can help those in the WCC also?
                                                  Do not fall into deceit. When you grow older you will understand.

                                                  MN


                                                  From: "Tim Andrews" <ireand@...>
                                                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                  Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:44:01 +1000


                                                  Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                                  followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                                  humbly make a short note.

                                                  Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                                  of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                                  the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                                  received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                                  share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                                  signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                                  be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                                  example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                                  co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                                  "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                                  Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                                  there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                                  would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                                  make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                                  law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                                  in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                                  Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                                  conjunction with them as well.
                                                  Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                                  respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                                  hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                                  My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                                  While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                                  that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                                  a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                                  forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                                  past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                                  said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                                  immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                                  were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                                  schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                                  ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                                  Forgive me if I have offended,
                                                  Timothy Andrews



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