Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

Expand Messages
  • vladimir kozyreff
    Christ is risen! Dear Elisabeth, You write: As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label Stalinism (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 13, 2002
      Christ is risen!

      Dear Elisabeth,

      You write:

      "As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
      "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
      agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
      looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
      headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve that
      issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
      inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its Hodigitria
      for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
      unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and churches
      to them... "

      It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
      "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them must be
      the ex-KGB officers and their
      head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may develop
      relationship
      as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.

      If we develop friendly personal relations with the believers in Russia, this
      is
      a totally different matter. In our parish, we were very happy to receive
      twice a miraculous
      icon of the Tsar Martyr Nicholas II that was brought to us by a friend from
      Moscow
      who is a parishioner of the MP. When in Russia, I often attended the liturgy
      in MP
      churches and became very friendly with believers and priests of the MP.
      So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined without any
      ground.

      Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because it was
      created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
      to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the MP
      cannot be part of the Church.
      Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot understand
      that the Synod
      allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only confusion. The
      Church
      and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.

      The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been claiming
      that this
      compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This statement
      is an outrage to the martyrs,
      is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of heresy
      cannot be part of the Church.

      Matthew 10
      32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
      Father in heaven.
      33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in
      heaven.

      I never said that I "condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
      looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
      headed by people with questionable motives".

      I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just consider
      that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who told you
      ever that this
      was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
      sergianists?

      Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of Sergianism.
      We pray for
      those who indulge in, and we pray God to open the eyes of those who believe
      that they should be tolerant
      to heresy out of love for the neighbour, compassion, or fear for
      "fundamentalism".

      I also pray God that He give our hierarchs the courage to be clear, to
      inspire trust, to abstain from
      compromission and to lead the Christians to God.

      In Christ, with brotherly love.

      Vladimir Kozyreff


      -----Message d'origine-----
      De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
      Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
      A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


      And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
      responses:

      to QUESTION 1:
      There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is answering
      the real questions - why call them "off-base"?


      I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
      think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
      honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
      not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse, taking
      words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!

      Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
      OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
      the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
      expectations."...

      With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
      over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
      (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
      have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
      attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
      consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY opinion,
      and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.

      As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
      "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
      agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
      looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
      headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve that
      issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
      inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its Hodigitria
      for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
      unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and churches
      to them...

      Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
      weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.

      I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
      respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
      know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems to
      be the case all too often.

      And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
      some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
      heartbreaking.

      Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.

      Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,

      Elizabeth





      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • goossir
      Dear Elizabeth, As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of my
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
        Dear Elizabeth,

        As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also
        privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of
        my letters, posted previously on this topic to the official chat site
        were never published - it seems some censorship was working. So this
        time I wanted to make sure that it attained its correspondents - and
        it worked.

        I do thank you for your openness to dialogue. It is only by
        exchanging our views clearly that perhaps we will get out of this
        hole in which our Church is for the moment and force people who do
        not want to hear and see to finally open their ears and eyes.
        Vladimir K. already answered many of your remarks so I will not go
        back to them as, personally, I fully agree with his approach.

        Regarding Vl. Mark, Joaquim Wertz said that we can call him or write
        to him - good idea but I do not have his phone number or address - so
        perhaps he could provide it.

        Still, something is puzzling me. The Monastery of the Trinity St
        Sergius in Russia was in those days (and still is) totally part of
        the MP who was totally subdued to the Communist regime. So how can
        someone following our path envisage that their curriculum is better
        than Jordanville in the matter of spirituality?? Even if the quality
        of the general subjects in Jordanville were not taught top grade, a
        faithful person will not go to people who made a pact with satan
        (which is actually what communism is, like it or not). I guess Vl
        Mark will have difficulties explaining this to me!

        Vl Mark is also quite silent about the several appeals made by the 10
        priests (12 at the time) of the European dioceses and their request
        of an ecclesiastical judgment, already back in 1999, and that no
        answer EVER came from the Synod. He just waves them away as a bunch
        of "extremists" deserving their suspension made after a quick and
        grotesque judgment defying any ecclesiastic rules. And what about
        the events in Mansonville??? Can any Christian approve sincerely
        what happened there? Is this the way churchmen should behave?
        I know, Dear Elizabeth, that you cannot answer these questions -
        neither do I, but they were put hundred times to bishops, priests in
        the Synod and they were never really answered up to now.

        Many reply: who are we to demand from our bishops? We should obey
        and pray - and that is all. Personally I think it is erroneous as
        Christ asked us to judge. When someone asked him: How shall we
        recognise where is the true Church, he answered: You will judge them
        by their fruits. (I quote more or less out of memory).
        Blind obedience could be very dangerous. This is what we
        call "papist"

        In Christ,
        Irina Goossens
      • boulia_1
        Dear Vladimir and lurkers, ... must be ... develop ... OK, but who is capable of convincing them to renounce the past (something toward which huge strides
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
          Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

          To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


          >
          > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
          > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
          must be
          > the ex-KGB officers and their
          > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
          develop
          > relationship
          > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
          >

          OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
          (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
          glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
          leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
          doesn't exist!

          Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
          society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
          were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
          the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
          spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
          already a MIRACLE.

          If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
          leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
          indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
          the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
          perhaps Islam?

          Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
          the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
          intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
          generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
          now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
          as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
          includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
          or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
          continue to provide guidance!



          >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
          without
          any
          > ground.

          I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
          what I have witnessed in others.

          >
          > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
          it was
          > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
          > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
          MP
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


          > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
          understand
          > that the Synod
          > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
          confusion. The
          > Church
          > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
          >

          I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
          was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
          opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
          credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
          controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



          > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
          claiming
          > that this
          > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
          statement
          > is an outrage to the martyrs,
          > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
          heresy
          > cannot be part of the Church.

          This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
          calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

          >
          > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
          consider
          > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
          told you
          > ever that this
          > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
          > sergianists?
          >
          > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
          Sergianism.


          In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
          strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
          mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
          accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
          without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
          sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
          is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
          "four" regarding 2+2...

          I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
          critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
          them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
          'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
          our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
          goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
          of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

          I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

          In the ascended Christ,
          Elizabeth



          >
          > -----Message d'origine-----
          > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
          > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
          > A : orthodox-synod@y...
          > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
          >
          >
          > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
          > responses:
          >
          > to QUESTION 1:
          > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
          answering
          > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
          >
          >
          > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
          > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
          > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
          > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
          taking
          > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
          >
          > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
          > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
          > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
          > expectations."...
          >
          > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
          > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
          > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
          > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
          > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
          > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
          opinion,
          > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
          >
          > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
          > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
          > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
          > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
          are
          > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
          that
          > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
          > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
          Hodigitria
          > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
          > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
          churches
          > to them...
          >
          > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
          > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
          >
          > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
          > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
          > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
          to
          > be the case all too often.
          >
          > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
          > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
          > heartbreaking.
          >
          > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
          >
          > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
          >
          > Elizabeth
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • vladimir kozyreff
          Dear Elisabeth, Below, I respond to your successive points. OK, but who is capable of convincing them to renounce the past (something toward which huge
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
            Dear Elisabeth,

            Below, I respond to your successive points.

            OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
            (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
            glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)?

            Any means legitimate may be used to influence them. The least
            legitimate is to tolerate their claiming that their past behaviour
            was inspired by the holy Spirit and that their excommunicating the martyrs
            was blessed by Christ. Any other way is accepting a totally wrong concept of
            Christianity.

            We cannot have our leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that
            the huge MP doesn't exist!

            Alas we know too well that it exists. It is even the cause of our discord.

            Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
            society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
            were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
            the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
            spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
            already a MIRACLE.

            I agree with you.

            Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
            the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
            intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
            generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
            now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
            as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
            includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
            or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
            continue to provide guidance!

            I agree totally with you. Our mission is in Russia.

            If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

            I am totally with you.

            I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
            was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
            opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
            credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
            controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

            What is not clear is that bishops have personal views that are different
            From those of the Church. For Instance, Vl Ambrosius thinks that sergianism
            is not thatv important and that only psychological obstacles remain between
            us and the MP. This personal view is open knowledge, many times confirmed,
            but of course, the oficial discourse is different. The accusation that the
            Synod has never accepeted to judge concerns certain deeds of Vl Ambrosius
            that were in line with what is known as his personal views. This is an
            example of intolerable confusion.

            This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
            calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

            Condemning somebody is stating his culpability. As Christains, we are not
            entitled to condemn our neighbour, but we must resist his wrongdoings. We
            have the duty to distinguish between the good and the evil. Identifying a
            proposal that is incompatible with Christ's teaching is identifying a
            heresy. We must exercise our spiritual judgement. A Christian must be
            misericordious for the sinner but intolerant to the sin.


            In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
            strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
            mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
            accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
            without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
            sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
            is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
            "four" regarding 2+2...

            The fact that baptism or ordinations are not re-done is just an application
            of "oeconomia", a rule of the Church by which derogations are made to the
            canons when it helps people to return to the truth, and when it is in the
            interest of the person in question, in the interest of the Church and in the
            interest of the Truth. I know your argument is often used in our discussion,
            but it is not right.

            Concerning the heretical nature of sergianism, I refer you to my previous
            communications below.


            From: "Vladimir Kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
            Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:45 pm
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


            I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
            stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
            teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
            heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
            themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

            This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
            question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

            In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
            Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
            collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
            the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
            temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
            martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
            Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
            Spirit.

            " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
            Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
            before my Father in heaven".

            The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
            knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
            will remain anathema.

            This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
            Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
            is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
            stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

            In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
            anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
            wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
            in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

            From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
            Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:45 pm
            Subject: Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

            Dear Father Seraphim,

            You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
            heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".

            Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
            distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":

            1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
            in deeds.
            2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
            Church.

            Both of them are heretical.

            Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
            collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
            is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
            that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
            contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.

            (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
            with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
            thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
            Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
            promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
            heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
            seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
            that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:

            Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
            Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
            had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
            Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
            You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
            opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
            is heretical too.
            In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
            that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
            not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
            counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
            is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
            action that displeased God is heretical too.

            It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
            explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
            heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
            Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
            we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
            can see it.

            Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
            our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
            schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
            same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
            the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
            As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
            start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
            nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
            orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.

            I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
            critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
            them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
            'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
            our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
            goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
            of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

            Dear Elisabeth, be sure that I am very close to you in my love to Russia and
            in my belief that the return to the truth of our brothers and sisters in
            Russia is my greatest concern. I feel very humble, because I might have been
            less resistant than them to the terrible spiritual ordeal that they
            experienced. I never thaught of judging them. I agree that we should show
            them love and understanding and not adopt an out of place attitude of
            superiority.

            That is why I cannot agree with Vl Mark message, which is that our Church
            must forget that it once was Russian, the MP is good enough to be the Church
            of Russia that we dreamed to be. It is not realistic for us to dream of our
            return. We will sign a kind of Yalta agreement with the MP and attribute to
            both a sphere of influence.

            My love to Russia is the most important part of my life. I am sure that we
            will make peace, you and I, after we have put aside apparent superficial
            disagreements.

            Forgive me if I have iritated you. I appreciate a lot your kind attention.

            With love in Christ.

            Vladimir Kozyreff




            -----Message d'origine-----
            De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
            Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
            A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


            Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

            To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


            >
            > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
            > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
            must be
            > the ex-KGB officers and their
            > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
            develop
            > relationship
            > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
            >

            OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
            (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
            glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
            leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
            doesn't exist!

            Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
            society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
            were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
            the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
            spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
            already a MIRACLE.

            If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
            leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
            indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
            the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
            perhaps Islam?

            Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
            the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
            intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
            generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
            now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
            as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
            includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
            or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
            continue to provide guidance!



            >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
            without
            any
            > ground.

            I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
            what I have witnessed in others.

            >
            > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
            it was
            > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
            > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
            MP
            > cannot be part of the Church.

            If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


            > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
            understand
            > that the Synod
            > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
            confusion. The
            > Church
            > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
            >

            I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
            was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
            opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
            credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
            controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



            > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
            claiming
            > that this
            > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
            statement
            > is an outrage to the martyrs,
            > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
            heresy
            > cannot be part of the Church.

            This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
            calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

            >
            > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
            consider
            > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
            told you
            > ever that this
            > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
            > sergianists?
            >
            > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
            Sergianism.


            In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
            strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
            mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
            accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
            without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
            sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
            is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
            "four" regarding 2+2...

            I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
            critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
            them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
            'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
            our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
            goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
            of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

            I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

            In the ascended Christ,
            Elizabeth



            >
            > -----Message d'origine-----
            > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
            > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
            > A : orthodox-synod@y...
            > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
            >
            >
            > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
            > responses:
            >
            > to QUESTION 1:
            > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
            answering
            > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
            >
            >
            > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
            > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
            > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
            > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
            taking
            > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
            >
            > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
            > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
            > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
            > expectations."...
            >
            > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
            > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
            > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
            > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
            > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
            > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
            opinion,
            > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
            >
            > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
            > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
            > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
            > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
            are
            > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
            that
            > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
            > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
            Hodigitria
            > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
            > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
            churches
            > to them...
            >
            > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
            > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
            >
            > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
            > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
            > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
            to
            > be the case all too often.
            >
            > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
            > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
            > heartbreaking.
            >
            > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
            >
            > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
            >
            > Elizabeth
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Joachim Wertz
            Dear Irina, First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark. However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
              Dear Irina,

              First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark.
              However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his email
              is hiobmon@..., at least that is the latest information I have access
              to.

              According to the interview published in "Kontinent" (no. 98 [4], 1998) pp.
              284-286, Vl. Mark's spiritual father at the Skete of the Prophet Elias on
              the Holy Mountain gave him an obedience to study theology. Now bearing in
              mind that Vl. Mark already possessed a doctorate and was well versed in
              Patristics , Russian Orthodox spirituality, as well as having spent
              considerable time on Mt. Athos, it can be implied from the context that it
              was meant that he study what we would call theology at GRADUATE level.
              Jordanville is a SEMINARY, not an ecclesiastical academy or theological
              faculty. It's main purpose is to train priests and give them the basics of
              theology, liturgics, Church music, pastoral care, apologetics, etc. Many of
              its students have traditionally entered the seminary lacking the equivalent
              of a college degree (US). This is not a criticism, but a statement of the
              situation. The Jordanville seminary serves its defined purpose well. But I
              am drifting from my point. It should be mentioned that Vl. Mark applied to
              the Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy located at the Trinity-St. Sergius
              Monastery, to be admitted as a CORRESPONDENCE STUDENT (just for the record).
              AFTER obtaining his theological education in Belgrade, Bp. Pavel suggested
              to Vl. Mark that he go to Jordanville since the Bishop thought that Vl.
              Mark's knowledge and talents would be useful at the seminary. I do not know
              why this did not come to fruition. So you see that Vl. Mark went to America
              to look into a possible position at Jordanville, not to be a student. Upon
              his return from America, Vl. Mark told Bp. Pavel that what he wanted was to
              serve in the German Diocese.

              I do not have any clear knowledge of the events in the European dioceses you
              mention and will not comment on them.

              In the email you sent to me personally, you mention that Mr. V. Kozyreff was
              called a "fundamentalist". I did not so call him.

              Let me say that I know Vl. Mark personally, having met him in NY shortly
              after his consecration and later I was a pilgrim at his monastery in Munich.
              I spoke with him briefly by telephone when he was in NY in the mid-90's.
              That was the last contact I had with him. I respect him highly.

              In Christ,

              Joachim Wertz

              ----------
              From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
              Date: Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 5:07 AM


              Dear Elizabeth,

              As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also
              privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of
              my letters, posted previously on this topic to the official chat site
              were never published - it seems some censorship was working. So this
              time I wanted to make sure that it attained its correspondents - and
              it worked.

              I do thank you for your openness to dialogue. It is only by
              exchanging our views clearly that perhaps we will get out of this
              hole in which our Church is for the moment and force people who do
              not want to hear and see to finally open their ears and eyes.
              Vladimir K. already answered many of your remarks so I will not go
              back to them as, personally, I fully agree with his approach.

              Regarding Vl. Mark, Joaquim Wertz said that we can call him or write
              to him - good idea but I do not have his phone number or address - so
              perhaps he could provide it.

              Still, something is puzzling me. The Monastery of the Trinity St
              Sergius in Russia was in those days (and still is) totally part of
              the MP who was totally subdued to the Communist regime. So how can
              someone following our path envisage that their curriculum is better
              than Jordanville in the matter of spirituality?? Even if the quality
              of the general subjects in Jordanville were not taught top grade, a
              faithful person will not go to people who made a pact with satan
              (which is actually what communism is, like it or not). I guess Vl
              Mark will have difficulties explaining this to me!

              Vl Mark is also quite silent about the several appeals made by the 10
              priests (12 at the time) of the European dioceses and their request
              of an ecclesiastical judgment, already back in 1999, and that no
              answer EVER came from the Synod. He just waves them away as a bunch
              of "extremists" deserving their suspension made after a quick and
              grotesque judgment defying any ecclesiastic rules. And what about
              the events in Mansonville??? Can any Christian approve sincerely
              what happened there? Is this the way churchmen should behave?
              I know, Dear Elizabeth, that you cannot answer these questions -
              neither do I, but they were put hundred times to bishops, priests in
              the Synod and they were never really answered up to now.

              Many reply: who are we to demand from our bishops? We should obey
              and pray - and that is all. Personally I think it is erroneous as
              Christ asked us to judge. When someone asked him: How shall we
              recognise where is the true Church, he answered: You will judge them
              by their fruits. (I quote more or less out of memory).
              Blind obedience could be very dangerous. This is what we
              call "papist"

              In Christ,
              Irina Goossens






              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • vladimir kozyreff
              Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus the Confessor, said in the 7th century: I do not desire heretics to be tormented
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 15, 2002
                Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus
                the Confessor, said in the 7th century: "I do not desire heretics to be
                tormented and do not rejoice in their evil - God forbid! But I rejoice the
                more so in their conversion... I have not so far lost my reason as to value
                mercilessness above love for others...

                But despite this I say that heretics cannot be helped by confirming them in
                their insane beliefs, here one has to be blunt and uncompromising.
                For I call it not love, but hatred for one's fellow men and a falling away
                from
                Divine love when anyone confirms heretics in their errors, leading to
                the inevitable perdition of these people."

                This is why the ROCA has never confirmed the MP in its errors by
                hypocritically
                recognizing its "lawfulness" and "fullness," the "grace of its Church life,"
                or that it is supposedly a "part" of the one Russian Church, for the
                inevitable
                perdition of whatever is still alive in the MP.

                Archpriest Lev Lebedeff
                Great Lent 1998
                Kursk.

                -----Message d'origine-----
                De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                >
                > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                must be
                > the ex-KGB officers and their
                > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                develop
                > relationship
                > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                >

                OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                doesn't exist!

                Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                already a MIRACLE.

                If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                perhaps Islam?

                Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                continue to provide guidance!



                >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                without
                any
                > ground.

                I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                what I have witnessed in others.

                >
                > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                it was
                > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                MP
                > cannot be part of the Church.

                If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                understand
                > that the Synod
                > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                confusion. The
                > Church
                > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                >

                I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                claiming
                > that this
                > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                statement
                > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                heresy
                > cannot be part of the Church.

                This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                >
                > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                consider
                > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                told you
                > ever that this
                > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                > sergianists?
                >
                > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                Sergianism.


                In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                "four" regarding 2+2...

                I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                In the ascended Christ,
                Elizabeth



                >
                > -----Message d'origine-----
                > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                >
                >
                > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                > responses:
                >
                > to QUESTION 1:
                > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                answering
                > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                >
                >
                > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                taking
                > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                >
                > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                > expectations."...
                >
                > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                opinion,
                > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                >
                > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                are
                > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                that
                > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                Hodigitria
                > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                churches
                > to them...
                >
                > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                >
                > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                to
                > be the case all too often.
                >
                > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                > heartbreaking.
                >
                > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                >
                > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                >
                > Elizabeth
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • vladimir kozyreff
                Dear Elisabeth and others, I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 16, 2002
                  Dear Elisabeth and others,

                  I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent
                  before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to delete it
                  and to replace it by the following one, which I have now finalised.


                  Below, I respond to your successive points.

                  >OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                  >(something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                  >glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)?

                  Any legitimate means may be used to influence them. Pretending to accept
                  that their past collaboration with the communist regime was
                  inspired by the holy Spirit and that their excommunicating the martyrs was
                  blessed by Christ is not legitimate. This would amount to adopt a totally
                  wrong concept of Christianity and of the Church.

                  >We cannot have our leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that
                  >the huge MP doesn't exist!

                  Alas we know too well that it exists. It is even the cause of our discord.

                  >Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                  >society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                  >we>re raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                  >the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                  >spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                  >already a MIRACLE.

                  I agree with you.

                  >Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                  >the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                  >intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                  >generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                  >now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                  >as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                  >includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                  >or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                  >continue to provide guidance!

                  I agree totally with you. Our mission is in Russia. This does not seem to be
                  Vl Mark's opinion however.

                  >If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

                  I am totally with you.

                  >I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                  >was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                  >opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                  >credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                  >controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

                  What is not clear is that bishops allow themselves to have personal views
                  that are different from those of the Church and to publish them. For
                  Instance, Vl Ambrosius thinks that sergianism is not that important. He
                  believes that only psychological obstacles remain between us and the MP.
                  This personal view is well known and was many times confirmed, even in
                  private conversations with him. Of course, his official discourse is
                  different. The accusation that the Synod never accepted to judge concerns
                  certain actions of Vl Ambrosius, that were in line with his personal views
                  and that contradict the teaching of the Church. This is an example of
                  intolerable confusion.

                  >This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                  >calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                  Condemning somebody is stating his culpability. As Christians, we are not
                  entitled to condemn our neighbour. We must however resist his wrongdoings.
                  We
                  have the duty to distinguish between the good and the evil. Identifying a
                  proposal that is incompatible with Christ's teaching is identifying a
                  heresy. We must exercise our spiritual judgement. A Christian must be
                  merciful for the sinner but intolerant to the sin.

                  >In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                  >strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                  >mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                  >accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                  >without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                  >sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                  >is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                  >"four" regarding 2+2...

                  The fact that baptism or ordinations are not re-done is just an application
                  of "oeconomia". This is a rule of the Church by which derogations are made
                  to the canons when it helps people to return to the truth, when it is in the
                  interest of the person in question, in the interest of the Church and in the
                  interest of the Truth. I know your argument is often used in our discussion,
                  but it is not applicable here.

                  Concerning the heretical nature of sergianism, I refer you to my previous
                  communications below.

                  From: "Vladimir Kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                  Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:45 pm
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


                  I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
                  stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
                  teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
                  heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
                  themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

                  This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
                  question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

                  In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
                  Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
                  collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
                  the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
                  temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
                  martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
                  Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
                  Spirit.

                  " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
                  Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
                  before my Father in heaven".

                  The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
                  knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
                  will remain anathema.

                  This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
                  Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
                  is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
                  stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

                  In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
                  anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
                  wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
                  in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

                  From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                  Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:45 pm
                  Subject: Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

                  Dear Father Seraphim,

                  You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
                  heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".

                  Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
                  distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":

                  1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
                  in deeds.
                  2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
                  Church.

                  Both of them are heretical.

                  Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
                  collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
                  is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
                  that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
                  contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.

                  (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
                  with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
                  thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
                  Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
                  promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
                  heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
                  seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
                  that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:

                  Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
                  Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
                  had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
                  Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
                  You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
                  opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
                  is heretical too.
                  In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
                  that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
                  not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
                  counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
                  is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
                  action that displeased God is heretical too.

                  It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
                  explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
                  heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
                  Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
                  we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
                  can see it.

                  Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
                  our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
                  schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
                  same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
                  the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
                  As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
                  start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
                  nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
                  orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.

                  >I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                  >critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                  >them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                  >'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                  >our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                  >goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                  >of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                  Because of my belief in the calling of our Church, I cannot agree with Vl
                  Mark. His position amounts to stating the following, which is totally
                  unacceptable:
                  - our Church must forget that she once was Russian
                  - the MP is good enough to be the Church of Russia that we dreamed to be
                  - Sergianism is not an issue any longer
                  - We must be realistic: we will never make it
                  - Let us sign a Yalta agreement with the MP. Each "Church" will be allocated
                  a territory of influence and peace will come.

                  Dear Elisabeth, we both love Russia. The return to the truth of our brothers
                  and sisters in Russia is my greatest concern. I feel very humble, because I
                  might have been less resistant than most them to the terrible spiritual
                  ordeal that they experienced. I never thought of judging them. I agree that
                  we should show them love and understanding. We must never adopt an out of
                  place attitude of superiority. Of course, we must talk to them, but never at
                  the expense of the truth. I am sure that we will make peace, you and I,
                  after we have put aside certain disagreements. We might be closer than we
                  think.

                  Forgive me if I have iritated you. I appreciate a lot your kind attention.

                  With love in Christ.

                  Vladimir Kozyreff




                  -----Message d'origine-----
                  De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                  Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                  A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                  Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                  To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                  >
                  > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                  > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                  must be
                  > the ex-KGB officers and their
                  > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                  develop
                  > relationship
                  > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                  >

                  OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                  (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                  glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                  leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                  doesn't exist!

                  Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                  society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                  were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                  the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                  spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                  already a MIRACLE.

                  If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                  leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                  indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                  the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                  perhaps Islam?

                  Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                  the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                  intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                  generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                  now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                  as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                  includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                  or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                  continue to provide guidance!



                  >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                  without
                  any
                  > ground.

                  I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                  what I have witnessed in others.

                  >
                  > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                  it was
                  > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                  > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                  MP
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                  > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                  understand
                  > that the Synod
                  > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                  confusion. The
                  > Church
                  > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                  >

                  I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                  was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                  opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                  credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                  controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                  > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                  claiming
                  > that this
                  > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                  statement
                  > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                  > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                  heresy
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                  calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                  >
                  > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                  consider
                  > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                  told you
                  > ever that this
                  > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                  > sergianists?
                  >
                  > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                  Sergianism.


                  In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                  strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                  mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                  accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                  without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                  sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                  is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                  "four" regarding 2+2...

                  I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                  critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                  them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                  'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                  our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                  goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                  of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                  I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                  In the ascended Christ,
                  Elizabeth



                  >
                  > -----Message d'origine-----
                  > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                  > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                  > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                  > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                  >
                  >
                  > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                  > responses:
                  >
                  > to QUESTION 1:
                  > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                  answering
                  > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                  >
                  >
                  > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                  > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                  > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                  > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                  taking
                  > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                  >
                  > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                  > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                  > expectations."...
                  >
                  > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                  > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                  > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                  > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                  > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                  > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                  opinion,
                  > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                  >
                  > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                  > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                  > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                  > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                  are
                  > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                  that
                  > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                  > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                  Hodigitria
                  > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                  > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                  churches
                  > to them...
                  >
                  > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                  > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                  >
                  > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                  > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                  > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                  to
                  > be the case all too often.
                  >
                  > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                  > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                  > heartbreaking.
                  >
                  > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                  >
                  > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                  >
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                  -----Message d'origine-----
                  De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                  Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                  A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                  Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                  To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                  >
                  > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                  > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                  must be
                  > the ex-KGB officers and their
                  > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                  develop
                  > relationship
                  > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                  >

                  OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                  (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                  glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                  leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                  doesn't exist!

                  Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                  society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                  were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                  the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                  spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                  already a MIRACLE.

                  If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                  leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                  indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                  the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                  perhaps Islam?

                  Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                  the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                  intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                  generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                  now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                  as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                  includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                  or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                  continue to provide guidance!



                  >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                  without
                  any
                  > ground.

                  I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                  what I have witnessed in others.

                  >
                  > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                  it was
                  > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                  > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                  MP
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                  > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                  understand
                  > that the Synod
                  > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                  confusion. The
                  > Church
                  > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                  >

                  I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                  was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                  opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                  credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                  controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                  > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                  claiming
                  > that this
                  > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                  statement
                  > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                  > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                  heresy
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                  calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                  >
                  > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                  consider
                  > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                  told you
                  > ever that this
                  > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                  > sergianists?
                  >
                  > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                  Sergianism.


                  In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                  strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                  mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                  accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                  without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                  sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                  is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                  "four" regarding 2+2...

                  I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                  critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                  them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                  'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                  our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                  goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                  of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                  I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                  In the ascended Christ,
                  Elizabeth



                  >
                  > -----Message d'origine-----
                  > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                  > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                  > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                  > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                  >
                  >
                  > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                  > responses:
                  >
                  > to QUESTION 1:
                  > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                  answering
                  > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                  >
                  >
                  > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                  > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                  > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                  > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                  taking
                  > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                  >
                  > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                  > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                  > expectations."...
                  >
                  > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                  > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                  > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                  > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                  > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                  > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                  opinion,
                  > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                  >
                  > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                  > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                  > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                  > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                  are
                  > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                  that
                  > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                  > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                  Hodigitria
                  > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                  > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                  churches
                  > to them...
                  >
                  > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                  > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                  >
                  > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                  > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                  > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                  to
                  > be the case all too often.
                  >
                  > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                  > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                  > heartbreaking.
                  >
                  > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                  >
                  > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                  >
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • vladimir kozyreff
                  I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very knowledgeable and respected person. I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
                    I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very
                    knowledgeable and respected person.

                    I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                    atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his position.

                    In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad of
                    February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a four-day
                    visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21. The
                    report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-celebrated
                    with Serbian priests.

                    The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of Churches.
                    The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How can we
                    reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with the
                    Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position relative to
                    our Church's.

                    Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line of the
                    Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the Church,
                    committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches obedience
                    to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already confuse time?
                    Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not? If not,
                    why? Is this a acceptable question to put?

                    Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests from
                    Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been heard by
                    the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that they did
                    not obey.

                    In Christ,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff
                  • joeswaydyn2000
                    Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in communion with the Serbs--
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
                      Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                      here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                      communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                      communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                      clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                      claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                      something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                      with.

                      To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                      Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                      doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                      word 'disobedience' in quotes.

                      Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                      so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.

                      Joseph

                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                      > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                      very
                      > knowledgeable and respected person.
                      >
                      > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                      > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                      position.
                      >
                      > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                      Abroad of
                      > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                      four-day
                      > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                      8/21. The
                      > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                      celebrated
                      > with Serbian priests.
                      >
                      > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                      Churches.
                      > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                      can we
                      > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                      with the
                      > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                      relative to
                      > our Church's.
                      >
                      > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                      of the
                      > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                      Church,
                      > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                      obedience
                      > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                      confuse time?
                      > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                      If not,
                      > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                      >
                      > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                      priests from
                      > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                      heard by
                      > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                      they did
                      > not obey.
                      >
                      > In Christ,
                      >
                      > Vladimir Kozyreff
                    • boulia_1
                      Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO intervention (i.e. act of War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of Serbia, where a
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                        Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                        War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                        Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                        been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                        so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                        Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                        ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                        cathedral several years back.

                        Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                        salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                        brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                        hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                        Shanghai/S.F.).

                        To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                        people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                        closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                        desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                        "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                        perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                        cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                        clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                        In Christ's love,
                        Elizabeth

                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                        very
                        > knowledgeable and respected person.
                        >
                        > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                        > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                        position.
                        >
                        > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                        Abroad of
                        > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                        four-day
                        > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                        The
                        > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                        co-celebrated
                        > with Serbian priests.
                        >
                        > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                        Churches.
                        > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                        can we
                        > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                        the
                        > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                        relative to
                        > our Church's.
                        >
                        > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                        of the
                        > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                        Church,
                        > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                        obedience
                        > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                        confuse time?
                        > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                        If not,
                        > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                        >
                        > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                        from
                        > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                        heard by
                        > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                        they did
                        > not obey.
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        >
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                      • Kiril Bart
                        Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent person from holding and using firearms, or any other weapons. Try to be more realistic. Subdeacon Kirill P.S.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                          Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                          person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                          weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                          Subdeacon Kirill
                          P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                          crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                          --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                          > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                          > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                          > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                          > Orthodox people of
                          > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                          > terrorist Albanians has
                          > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                          > their Serb victims,
                          > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                          > cross themselves!
                          >
                          > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                          > similarly and just as
                          > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                          > serve in the SF
                          > cathedral several years back.
                          >
                          > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                          > the important and
                          > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                          > protecting their Orthodox
                          > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                          > most esteemed
                          > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                          > John of
                          > Shanghai/S.F.).
                          >
                          > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                          > the most pious of
                          > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                          > and among the
                          > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                          > understand this
                          > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                          > fault.
                          >
                          > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                          > brother's eye, but
                          > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                          > Thou hypocrite,
                          > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                          > then shalt thou see
                          > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                          > brother's eye."
                          >
                          > In Christ's love,
                          > Elizabeth
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                          > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                          > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                          > Mark describe a
                          > very
                          > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                          > >
                          > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                          > insist that he looks
                          > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                          > about his
                          > position.
                          > >
                          > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                          > Orthodox Church
                          > Abroad of
                          > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                          > Serbia " describes a
                          > four-day
                          > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                          > till February, 8/21.
                          > The
                          > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                          > in which he
                          > co-celebrated
                          > > with Serbian priests.
                          > >
                          > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                          > World Council of
                          > Churches.
                          > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                          > church in1983. How
                          > can we
                          > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                          > Mark's communion with
                          > the
                          > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                          > Mark's position
                          > relative to
                          > > our Church's.
                          > >
                          > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                          > following the line
                          > of the
                          > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                          > disobedience to the
                          > Church,
                          > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                          > incidently teaches
                          > obedience
                          > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                          > of an already
                          > confuse time?
                          > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                          > movement? Or not?
                          > If not,
                          > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                          > >
                          > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                          > meantime, 12 priests
                          > from
                          > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                          > without having been
                          > heard by
                          > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                          > believers, except that
                          > they did
                          > > not obey.
                          > >
                          > > In Christ,
                          > >
                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                          http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                        • Ledkovsky, Nina
                          Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim s way of spitting at the Orthodox. It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well... -Nina Ledkovsky ...
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                            Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim's way of spitting at the Orthodox.
                            It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well...
                            -Nina Ledkovsky

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:11 PM
                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                            Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                            person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                            weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                            Subdeacon Kirill
                            P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                            crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                            --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                            > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                            > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                            > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                            > Orthodox people of
                            > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                            > terrorist Albanians has
                            > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                            > their Serb victims,
                            > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                            > cross themselves!
                            >
                            > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                            > similarly and just as
                            > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                            > serve in the SF
                            > cathedral several years back.
                            >
                            > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                            > the important and
                            > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                            > protecting their Orthodox
                            > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                            > most esteemed
                            > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                            > John of
                            > Shanghai/S.F.).
                            >
                            > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                            > the most pious of
                            > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                            > and among the
                            > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                            > understand this
                            > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                            > fault.
                            >
                            > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                            > brother's eye, but
                            > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                            > Thou hypocrite,
                            > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                            > then shalt thou see
                            > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                            > brother's eye."
                            >
                            > In Christ's love,
                            > Elizabeth
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                            > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                            > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                            > Mark describe a
                            > very
                            > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                            > >
                            > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                            > insist that he looks
                            > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                            > about his
                            > position.
                            > >
                            > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                            > Orthodox Church
                            > Abroad of
                            > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                            > Serbia " describes a
                            > four-day
                            > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                            > till February, 8/21.
                            > The
                            > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                            > in which he
                            > co-celebrated
                            > > with Serbian priests.
                            > >
                            > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                            > World Council of
                            > Churches.
                            > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                            > church in1983. How
                            > can we
                            > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                            > Mark's communion with
                            > the
                            > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                            > Mark's position
                            > relative to
                            > > our Church's.
                            > >
                            > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                            > following the line
                            > of the
                            > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                            > disobedience to the
                            > Church,
                            > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                            > incidently teaches
                            > obedience
                            > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                            > of an already
                            > confuse time?
                            > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                            > movement? Or not?
                            > If not,
                            > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                            > >
                            > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                            > meantime, 12 priests
                            > from
                            > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                            > without having been
                            > heard by
                            > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                            > believers, except that
                            > they did
                            > > not obey.
                            > >
                            > > In Christ,
                            > >
                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                            http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



                            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • vladimir kozyreff
                            Dear Elisabeth, I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                              Dear Elisabeth,

                              I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to
                              people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this case),
                              makes you turn a
                              blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you are right,
                              because
                              you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam and the
                              splinter).
                              However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion) before
                              your "dukhovnost'"
                              (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                              For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                              limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen outside the
                              limits of the
                              Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute respect for
                              His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth. Failure
                              to
                              respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and ecumenism.
                              As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                              faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In Judaism, people
                              do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism originated in an
                              adulteration of the creed,
                              which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers are the
                              last faithful.
                              The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most sacred duty
                              is to preserve it.
                              This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on us.

                              Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world. The world
                              is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold the
                              truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus the
                              natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes differently
                              from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of respect.
                              Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.

                              As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of the
                              Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our brothers does
                              not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of offending
                              them, on the contrary:

                              1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because they are
                              particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because they have
                              endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish, since
                              the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know that
                              the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                              2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help them to
                              overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                              are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must show
                              understanding,
                              nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                              This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from the
                              devil
                              that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but saving them.
                              3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is not an
                              aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary, in
                              denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is like a
                              physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured if those
                              beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                              4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the heresy
                              in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but one of
                              humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our Church
                              is right
                              and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and we
                              believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught by our
                              Church.
                              5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be helped out
                              too.
                              If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                              in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the heresy
                              in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                              Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have communion with
                              heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is the
                              person we love most, more than any human.

                              In Christ's love,
                              Vladimir Kozyreff
                              -----Message d'origine-----
                              De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                              Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                              A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                              Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                              War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                              Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                              been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                              so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                              Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                              ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                              cathedral several years back.

                              Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                              salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                              brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                              hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                              Shanghai/S.F.).

                              To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                              people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                              closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                              desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                              "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                              perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                              cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                              clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                              In Christ's love,
                              Elizabeth

                              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                              > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                              very
                              > knowledgeable and respected person.
                              >
                              > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                              > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                              position.
                              >
                              > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                              Abroad of
                              > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                              four-day
                              > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                              The
                              > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                              co-celebrated
                              > with Serbian priests.
                              >
                              > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                              Churches.
                              > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                              can we
                              > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                              the
                              > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                              relative to
                              > our Church's.
                              >
                              > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                              of the
                              > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                              Church,
                              > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                              obedience
                              > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                              confuse time?
                              > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                              If not,
                              > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                              >
                              > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                              from
                              > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                              heard by
                              > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                              they did
                              > not obey.
                              >
                              > In Christ,
                              >
                              > Vladimir Kozyreff




                              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Hristofor
                              To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued a we are no longer in communion with Serbia ukase (If someone knows to the
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                                To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                Hristofor

                                At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                >with.
                                >
                                >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                >
                                >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                >
                                >Joseph
                                >
                                >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                >very
                                > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                > >
                                > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                >position.
                                > >
                                > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                >Abroad of
                                > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                >four-day
                                > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                >8/21. The
                                > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                >celebrated
                                > > with Serbian priests.
                                > >
                                > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                >Churches.
                                > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                >can we
                                > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                >with the
                                > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                >relative to
                                > > our Church's.
                                > >
                                > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                >of the
                                > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                >Church,
                                > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                >obedience
                                > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                >confuse time?
                                > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                >If not,
                                > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                > >
                                > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                >priests from
                                > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                >heard by
                                > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                >they did
                                > > not obey.
                                > >
                                > > In Christ,
                                > >
                                > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Michael Nikitin
                                The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued. All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it. MN From: Hristofor Reply-To:
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                                  The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued.
                                  All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it.

                                  MN

                                  From: Hristofor <hristofor@...>
                                  Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
                                  Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:03:21 -0400
                                  MIME-Version: 1.0
                                  Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.65]) by hotmail.com with
                                  Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:29:51 -0700
                                  Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun
                                  2002 03:32:02 -0000
                                  Received: (qmail 55383 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 03:31:54 -0000
                                  Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
                                  19 Jun 2002 03:31:54 -0000
                                  Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by
                                  mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 03:31:55 -0000
                                  Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun
                                  2002 03:31:55 -0000
                                  Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 Jun 2002 02:03:31 -0000
                                  Received: (qmail 64011 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2002 02:03:31 -0000
                                  Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
                                  19 Jun 2002 02:03:31 -0000
                                  Received: from unknown (HELO mx5.mail.ru) (194.67.57.15) by
                                  mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2002 02:03:31 -0000
                                  Received: from [128.59.6.134] (helo=VALUED-A67B5FF3.mail.ru)by mx5.mail.ru
                                  with esmtp (Exim SMTP.5)id 17KUoj-0005Jz-00for
                                  orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:03:29 +0400
                                  X-eGroups-Return:
                                  sentto-1289487-3785-1024457520-mikeniki=hotmail.com@...
                                  X-eGroups-Return: hristofor@...
                                  X-eGroups-Approved-By: frmarkg <fr.mark@...> via web; 19 Jun 2002
                                  03:31:53 -0000
                                  X-Sender: hristofor@...
                                  X-Apparently-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020618213138.00b86260@...>
                                  X-Sender: hristofor@...
                                  X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
                                  In-Reply-To: <aem5l5+pl91@...>
                                  References: <HNEJIPNFCEPMOBBNIAJIAEGHCAAA.vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                                  Mailing-List: list orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; contact
                                  orthodox-synod-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  Delivered-To: mailing list orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Precedence: bulk
                                  List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Return-Path:
                                  sentto-1289487-3785-1024457520-mikeniki=hotmail.com@...
                                  X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jun 2002 03:29:51.0854 (UTC)
                                  FILETIME=[9288B0E0:01C21741]

                                  To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                  a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                  the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                  were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                  Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                  with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                  Hristofor

                                  At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                  >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                  >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                  >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                  >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                  >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                  >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                  >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                  >with.
                                  >
                                  >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                  >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                  >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                  >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                  >
                                  >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                  >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                  >
                                  >Joseph
                                  >
                                  >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                  ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                  > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                  >very
                                  > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                  > >
                                  > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                  > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                  >position.
                                  > >
                                  > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                  >Abroad of
                                  > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                  >four-day
                                  > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                  >8/21. The
                                  > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                  >celebrated
                                  > > with Serbian priests.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                  >Churches.
                                  > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                  >can we
                                  > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                  >with the
                                  > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                  >relative to
                                  > > our Church's.
                                  > >
                                  > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                  >of the
                                  > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                  >Church,
                                  > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                  >obedience
                                  > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                  >confuse time?
                                  > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                  >If not,
                                  > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                  > >
                                  > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                  >priests from
                                  > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                  >heard by
                                  > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                  >they did
                                  > > not obey.
                                  > >
                                  > > In Christ,
                                  > >
                                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >

                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                  Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
                                • Michael Nikitin
                                  It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
                                    It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem
                                    if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is
                                    the Serbian Church that does not want to be in communion with it's brethren
                                    by being involved with the heretical organization WCC.
                                    Fr.Justin Popovich a much revered Father of the Serbian Church called the
                                    WCC a prostitute.
                                    No one cares that the Church is in the heretical organization?

                                    MN


                                    From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                                    Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                    Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:03:10 -0000
                                    MIME-Version: 1.0
                                    X-Originating-IP: 62.226.126.145
                                    Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.88]) by hotmail.com with
                                    Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:55:17 -0700
                                    Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun
                                    2002 12:55:23 -0000
                                    Received: (qmail 35450 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2002 12:54:43 -0000
                                    Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
                                    18 Jun 2002 12:54:43 -0000
                                    Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by
                                    mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jun 2002 12:54:43 -0000
                                    Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun
                                    2002 12:54:43 -0000
                                    Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 Jun 2002 10:03:13 -0000
                                    Received: (qmail 90890 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2002 10:03:13 -0000
                                    Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;
                                    18 Jun 2002 10:03:13 -0000
                                    Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by
                                    mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jun 2002 10:03:13 -0000
                                    Received: from [66.218.67.171] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun
                                    2002 10:03:13 -0000
                                    X-eGroups-Return:
                                    sentto-1289487-3777-1024404883-mikeniki=hotmail.com@...
                                    X-eGroups-Return: eledkovsky@...
                                    X-eGroups-Approved-By: frmarkg <fr.mark@...> via web; 18 Jun 2002
                                    12:54:42 -0000
                                    X-Sender: eledkovsky@...
                                    X-Apparently-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message-ID: <aen0gu+2hbk@...>
                                    In-Reply-To: <HNEJIPNFCEPMOBBNIAJIAEGHCAAA.vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                                    User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
                                    X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
                                    X-Yahoo-Profile: boulia_1
                                    Mailing-List: list orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com; contact
                                    orthodox-synod-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                    Delivered-To: mailing list orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Precedence: bulk
                                    List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:orthodox-synod-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Return-Path:
                                    sentto-1289487-3777-1024404883-mikeniki=hotmail.com@...
                                    X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2002 12:55:17.0661 (UTC)
                                    FILETIME=[657A44D0:01C216C7]

                                    Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                    War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                                    Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                                    been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                                    so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                                    Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                    ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                    cathedral several years back.

                                    Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                    salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                                    brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                    hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                    Shanghai/S.F.).

                                    To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                                    people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                    closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                    desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                                    "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                                    perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                    cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                                    clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                                    In Christ's love,
                                    Elizabeth

                                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                    <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                    > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                    very
                                    > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                    >
                                    > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                    > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                    position.
                                    >
                                    > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                    Abroad of
                                    > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                    four-day
                                    > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                                    The
                                    > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                    co-celebrated
                                    > with Serbian priests.
                                    >
                                    > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                    Churches.
                                    > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                    can we
                                    > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                                    the
                                    > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                    relative to
                                    > our Church's.
                                    >
                                    > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                    of the
                                    > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                    Church,
                                    > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                    obedience
                                    > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                    confuse time?
                                    > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                    If not,
                                    > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                    >
                                    > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                                    from
                                    > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                    heard by
                                    > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                    they did
                                    > not obey.
                                    >
                                    > In Christ,
                                    >
                                    > Vladimir Kozyreff



                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
                                  • goossir
                                    This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is worthwhile reading.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                      This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our
                                      church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is
                                      worthwhile reading.

                                      Yours in Christ
                                      Irina


                                      News Release


                                      Divisions within Orthodox church abroad

                                      CHURCH ABROAD ON BRINK OF SCHISM

                                      by Alexander Soldatov
                                      Nezavisimaia gazeta--religiia


                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      ----------

                                      15 April 1998

                                      Attempts at dialogue with Moscow patriarchate provoke sharp criticism

                                      The past year has brought many trials to the Russian Orthodox Church
                                      Abroad (RPTsZ), headed by the 88-year-old primate Metropolitan Vitaly
                                      Ustinov. RPTsZ lost the Holy Trinity monastery in Hebron, which was
                                      turned over by the Palestinian authority to the Russian Orthodox
                                      church of the Moscow Patriarch (RPTs MP), and the Saint Nicholas
                                      cathedral church in Montreal, in all likelihood torched by unknown
                                      antagonists. Archprist Alexander Zharkov, a prominent RPTsZ priest in
                                      St. Petersburg, and Iosif Munoz Cortes, the curator of the greatest
                                      shrine of the Russian emigration, the Iverian Myrrh-streaming icon of
                                      the Mother of God, perished at the hands of bandits. The icon itself
                                      disappeared and its location is unknown. This spring, by decision of
                                      Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany was
                                      expelled from the bishops' synod of RPTsZ. [Archbishop Mark's
                                      response]

                                      It is not surprising that these sad events, viewed by many in RPTsZ
                                      as the "end of the world," became the catalyst for processes of
                                      internal division among the clergy and flock of the Russian
                                      emigration on the question of mutual relations with RPTsMP. It may be
                                      strange, but the part of RPTsZ that was most politicized in the past
                                      has become the most active advocates of rapprochement and even
                                      unification with the Mother church after the fall of USSR and the
                                      democratic reforms in Russia. The aging priests in Europe and America
                                      and parishioners from among the first and part of the second "wave"
                                      of emigration are hoping to live to see the "desired unification." We
                                      recall that the distinguished arch-presbyter Alexander Kiselev, a
                                      pastor who is extremely authoritative and popular within RPTsZ and
                                      the long-time clergyman of the synodal cathedral in New York, has
                                      moved toward an open rupture with Metropolitan Vitaly because of his
                                      burning love for the motherland and for Patriarch Alexis II
                                      personally.

                                      By way of contrast, the new generation, especially the so-called
                                      converts (Protestants and Catholics who have transferred into
                                      Orthodoxy) speak about the dogmatic and canonical differences between
                                      RPTsZ and RPTsMP that prevent unification. But every rule is
                                      extremely approximate and reflects reality only relatively. An open
                                      protagonist of the process of reconciliation with the Mother church
                                      in RPTsZ is the sometime "convert," an ethnic German who converted to
                                      Orthodoxy, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany. In his time
                                      Archbishop Mark, an activist in the National Labor Union, was
                                      extremely radical in his negative attitude toward USSR and
                                      the "soviet church."

                                      Judging by the tendency of the publications of the "Vestnik of the
                                      German Diocese," edited by Master Mark, his attitude began to change
                                      in 1993. It is obvious that the archbishop suffered profoundly for
                                      the failures of RPTsZ in Russia, the alliance of the synodal
                                      representative Bishop Varnava with Vasilev's "Pamiat" organization,
                                      and conflicts among bishops. These experiences forced him to turn his
                                      face toward RPTsMP.

                                      Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                                      ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                                      RPTsZ and RPTsMP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                                      (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                                      basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                                      declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                                      the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                                      division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                                      abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                                      circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                                      diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared."

                                      It is clear that the authors of the declaration are simplifying the
                                      historical facts extremely: the line of the church division by no
                                      means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                                      declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                                      sacraments. However in practice such a recognition is absent.
                                      Existing precedents of a transfer into RPTsMP of clergy from RPTsZ in
                                      Russia (e.g., Oleg Steniaev and Dimitry Goltsev), when they were
                                      reordained to the clerical rank (in the case of Steniaev the
                                      ordination was performed by the patriarch himself), testify to the
                                      nonrecognition of the sacraments of RPTsZ. On the other hand,
                                      Metropolitan Vitaly in his letter to Archbishop Mark in December 1996
                                      directly declared that the time had come for a declaration to the
                                      world of the "lack of grace in the Moscow patriarchate." It is
                                      natural that the publication of this document evoked a storm of
                                      responses within RPTsZ and beyond its boundaries. Already in December
                                      1996, when Archbishop Mark met Patriarch Alexis II in Moscow, the
                                      most radical opponents of the activity of the German bishop accused
                                      him of rapprochement with "Sergians." This included in first place
                                      Metropolitan Vitaly himself, who sent to Archbishop Mark an extremely
                                      sharp indictment in which he declared that he had fallen into
                                      spiritual illness. Archbishop Mark also was indirectly condemned by
                                      clergy of the West European diocese, who distributed an open letter
                                      against reconciliation with RPTsMP, over the signatures of Bishop
                                      Varnava Rokofev of Cannes and 14 priests. No less sharp was the
                                      reaction in Russia at the time. Russian parishes of RPTsZ which had
                                      just broken with the patriarchate had no desire to admit to
                                      error. "We are for unification," wrote, in particular, the Russian
                                      members of the brotherhood of Saint Iov of Pochaev, "but not at any
                                      price. No price is worth betrayal and contempt for truth." Fr Stefan
                                      Krasovitsky, head of the RPTsZ mission in Russia, even sundered
                                      prayer fellowship with Archbishop Mark, considering him "in no way
                                      better that a Sergian." Archbishop Mark's enthusiastic impressions of
                                      Chisty Lane evoked a certain amazement even among the conservative
                                      circles of RPTsMP.

                                      As at that time, so in the present case of the publication of the
                                      joint declaration Metropolitan Vitaly was the first to respond. In
                                      his letter of 6 February of this year he reminded Archbishop Mark
                                      that no one had given him authority "to conduct these conversations."
                                      The patient primate decided to resort to punishment: he expelled
                                      Archbishop Mark from the bishop's synod of RPTsZ.

                                      Archbishop Mark wrote a rather sharp retort, addressed to all bishops
                                      of RPTsZ, in which he accused the metropolitan of inability to
                                      administer the church and, in essence, called for his removal. The
                                      only bishops, besides the metropolitan, who decided to speak openly
                                      against Archbishop Mark, who has acquired influence within RPTsZ, was
                                      the young bishop of Seattle, Kirill, vicar of the North American
                                      diocese, whose voice earlier had not been very much noticed. He
                                      delivered a devastating assessment of the joint declaration: "I am
                                      profoundly convinced that this declaration is an irresponsible
                                      collection of demagogic sentences that do not contain a single
                                      healthy idea which would lead to the resolution of the numerous
                                      ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox church at the end of
                                      the twentieth century."

                                      And so, the circle of opponents of Archbishop Mark's line in RPTsZ
                                      has been approximately set. There is Metropolitan Vitaly, vicar
                                      bishops Varnava and Kirill, the conservative clergy of West European
                                      diocese, practically all the Russian clergy of RPTsZ and "converts"
                                      (mostly Americans). Among the supporters of master Mark no one
                                      actively has declared himself so it is possible to draw conclusions
                                      only by indirect indicators. Obviously, that number includes several
                                      influential synodal bishops, whose support gives the German bishop
                                      confidence, the aging liberal Russian clergy (mostly in America and
                                      Australia) and, of course, clergy of the German diocese. Between
                                      these relative camps a fault line has formed, threatening in the near
                                      future to reveal to the world new branches of Russian Orthodoxy.
                                      Several observers from among clergy and laity of RPTsZ in Russia
                                      confirm that at this council the question of Metropolitan Vitaly's
                                      retirement will serve as a cutting edge. If that is so, then they
                                      must be correct who affirm that the extraordinary effort for
                                      overcoming the schism, in accordance with the law of the dialectic,
                                      will inevitably result in a new schism.

                                      (tr. by P D Steeves, Stetson University)
                                      http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews


                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      ----------

                                      Previous Article | Next Article
                                    • vladimir kozyreff
                                      http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm October 15/ 28, 1986 The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had become the leader of 300
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                        http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm

                                        October 15/ 28, 1986
                                        The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had
                                        become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president of the
                                        World Council of Churches.
                                        under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory,
                                        was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our Synodal
                                        bishops.
                                        The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                        ecumenism in word and deed..
                                        .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under our
                                        Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                        Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal truth
                                        remains constant and unchanging.
                                        If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because we share
                                        the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that we point
                                        out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                        The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to condone their
                                        violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                        Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never condoned
                                        doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution, cannot
                                        determine what the Church teaches.

                                        In God

                                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                                        -----Message d'origine-----
                                        De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                        Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                        A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                        Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                        To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                        a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                        the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                        were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                        Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                        with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                        Hristofor

                                        At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                        >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                        >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                        >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                        >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                        >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                        >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                        >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                        >with.
                                        >
                                        >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                        >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                        >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                        >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                        >
                                        >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                        >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                        >
                                        >Joseph
                                        >
                                        >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                        ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                        > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                        >very
                                        > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                        > >
                                        > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                        > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                        >position.
                                        > >
                                        > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                        >Abroad of
                                        > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                        >four-day
                                        > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                        >8/21. The
                                        > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                        >celebrated
                                        > > with Serbian priests.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                        >Churches.
                                        > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                        >can we
                                        > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                        >with the
                                        > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                        >relative to
                                        > > our Church's.
                                        > >
                                        > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                        >of the
                                        > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                        >Church,
                                        > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                        >obedience
                                        > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                        >confuse time?
                                        > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                        >If not,
                                        > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                        > >
                                        > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                        >priests from
                                        > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                        >heard by
                                        > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                        >they did
                                        > > not obey.
                                        > >
                                        > > In Christ,
                                        > >
                                        > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • vladimir kozyreff
                                        Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                          Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics

                                          Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles

                                          "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                          heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service
                                          as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

                                          Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:

                                          "If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to
                                          pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

                                          Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)

                                          "Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed
                                          to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for
                                          the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if
                                          they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time
                                          until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be
                                          readmitted to communion."

                                          Canon XXXIII of Laodicia

                                          "One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

                                          In God,

                                          Vladimir Kozyreff


                                          -----Message d'origine-----
                                          De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                          Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                          A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                          Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                          To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                          a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                          the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                          were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                          Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                          with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                          Hristofor

                                          At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                          >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                          >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                          >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                          >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                          >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                          >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                          >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                          >with.
                                          >
                                          >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                          >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                          >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                          >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                          >
                                          >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                          >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                          >
                                          >Joseph
                                          >
                                          >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                          ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                          >very
                                          > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                          > >
                                          > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                          > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                          >position.
                                          > >
                                          > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                          >Abroad of
                                          > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                          >four-day
                                          > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                          >8/21. The
                                          > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                          >celebrated
                                          > > with Serbian priests.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                          >Churches.
                                          > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                          >can we
                                          > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                          >with the
                                          > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                          >relative to
                                          > > our Church's.
                                          > >
                                          > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                          >of the
                                          > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                          >Church,
                                          > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                          >obedience
                                          > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                          >confuse time?
                                          > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                          >If not,
                                          > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                          > >
                                          > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                          >priests from
                                          > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                          >heard by
                                          > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                          >they did
                                          > > not obey.
                                          > >
                                          > > In Christ,
                                          > >
                                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        • boulia_1
                                          Dear Vladimir and Irina, With all due respect, I d prefer to err on the side of dushevnost then! Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
                                            Dear Vladimir and Irina,

                                            With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                            then!

                                            Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                            Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                            according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face of
                                            all his errors, and indeed, he received it.

                                            Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                            God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                            Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.

                                            As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against Vladyka
                                            Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                            regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                            punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                            because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                            and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                            because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                            Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly often
                                            seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or total
                                            carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                            would not have this mess today.

                                            Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who are
                                            the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                            was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                            deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used to
                                            give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                            they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                            his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                            right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                            around now...


                                            I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                            sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.

                                            In Christ's love,
                                            Elizabeth

                                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                            <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                            > Dear Elisabeth,
                                            >
                                            > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion
                                            to
                                            > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                            case),
                                            > makes you turn a
                                            > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                            are right,
                                            > because
                                            > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam
                                            and the
                                            > splinter).
                                            > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion)
                                            before
                                            > your "dukhovnost'"
                                            > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                            > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                            > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                            outside the
                                            > limits of the
                                            > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                            respect for
                                            > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth.
                                            Failure
                                            > to
                                            > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                            ecumenism.
                                            > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                            > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                            Judaism, people
                                            > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                            originated in an
                                            > adulteration of the creed,
                                            > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                            are the
                                            > last faithful.
                                            > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                            sacred duty
                                            > is to preserve it.
                                            > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                            us.
                                            >
                                            > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world.
                                            The world
                                            > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold
                                            the
                                            > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus
                                            the
                                            > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                            differently
                                            > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of
                                            respect.
                                            > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                            >
                                            > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of
                                            the
                                            > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                            brothers does
                                            > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                            offending
                                            > them, on the contrary:
                                            >
                                            > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                            they are
                                            > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                            they have
                                            > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish,
                                            since
                                            > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know
                                            that
                                            > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                            > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                            them to
                                            > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                            > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must
                                            show
                                            > understanding,
                                            > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                                            > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from
                                            the
                                            > devil
                                            > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                            saving them.
                                            > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                            not an
                                            > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary,
                                            in
                                            > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is
                                            like a
                                            > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured
                                            if those
                                            > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                            > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                            heresy
                                            > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but
                                            one of
                                            > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our
                                            Church
                                            > is right
                                            > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and
                                            we
                                            > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught
                                            by our
                                            > Church.
                                            > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be
                                            helped out
                                            > too.
                                            > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                                            > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                            heresy
                                            > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                            > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                            communion with
                                            > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is
                                            the
                                            > person we love most, more than any human.
                                            >
                                            > In Christ's love,
                                            > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                            > -----Message d'origine-----
                                            > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                            > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                            > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                            > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                            > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people
                                            of
                                            > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                            has
                                            > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                            victims,
                                            > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                            >
                                            > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                            > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                            > cathedral several years back.
                                            >
                                            > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                            > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                            Orthodox
                                            > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                            > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                            > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                            >
                                            > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious
                                            of
                                            > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                            > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                            > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                            >
                                            > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye,
                                            but
                                            > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                            > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                            see
                                            > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                            >
                                            > In Christ's love,
                                            > Elizabeth
                                            >
                                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                            > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                            > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                            > very
                                            > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                            > >
                                            > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                            looks
                                            > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                            > position.
                                            > >
                                            > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                            > Abroad of
                                            > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes
                                            a
                                            > four-day
                                            > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                            8/21.
                                            > The
                                            > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                            > co-celebrated
                                            > > with Serbian priests.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                            > Churches.
                                            > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                            How
                                            > can we
                                            > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                            with
                                            > the
                                            > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                            > relative to
                                            > > our Church's.
                                            > >
                                            > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                            line
                                            > of the
                                            > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                            > Church,
                                            > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                            > obedience
                                            > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                            > confuse time?
                                            > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                            > If not,
                                            > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                            > >
                                            > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                            priests
                                            > from
                                            > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                            been
                                            > heard by
                                            > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                            that
                                            > they did
                                            > > not obey.
                                            > >
                                            > > In Christ,
                                            > >
                                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • vkozyreff
                                            Dear Elisabeth, Regarding the temptation to prefer one s brothers and sisters to God, here is what Christ told us: Anyone who loves his father or mother more
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 20, 2002
                                              Dear Elisabeth,

                                              Regarding the temptation to prefer one's brothers and sisters to God,
                                              here is what Christ told us:

                                              "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of
                                              me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy
                                              of me; (Matthew 10:36-38).

                                              There can be no choice between loving God and loving one's neighbour,
                                              since no love to God can exist without love to the neighbour.

                                              There is a constant confusion between accusing the neighbour of
                                              committing a sin, which is not what we should do, and recognising
                                              that his action is bad, which is what we should do. If you see me
                                              commiting a crime, you must proclaim that you disapprove what I did
                                              and that what I committed is a crime. Doing this is not sinning by
                                              pride and is not claiming a reward for not committing the crime that
                                              I comitted.

                                              Stating that the Sergianists are wrong is not committing a sin of
                                              pride either. Will you accuse the Synod of committing a sin in
                                              denouncing their betrayal of God? This has nothing to do with the
                                              parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

                                              The Pharisees have crucified Christ, as have the Sergianists. We hold
                                              that separating oneself from God and His martyrs, as the Sergianists
                                              did, is wrong. We may not have communion with those who crucified the
                                              martyrs and still claim that it was right to do so. Refusing this
                                              communion is not being a Pharisee but being a humble servant of God
                                              and doing what he has commanded us to do.

                                              In God,

                                              Vladimir Kozyreff





                                              -- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                              > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                              >
                                              > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                              > then!
                                              >
                                              > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                              > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                              > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                              of
                                              > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                              >
                                              > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                              > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                              > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                              >
                                              > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                              Vladyka
                                              > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                              > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                              > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                              > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                              > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                              > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                              > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                              often
                                              > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                              total
                                              > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                              > would not have this mess today.
                                              >
                                              > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                              are
                                              > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                              > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                              > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                              to
                                              > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                              > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                              > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                              > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                              > around now...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                              > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                              >
                                              > In Christ's love,
                                              > Elizabeth
                                              >
                                              > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                              > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                              > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                              > >
                                              > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                              compassion
                                              > to
                                              > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                              > case),
                                              > > makes you turn a
                                              > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                              > are right,
                                              > > because
                                              > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                              beam
                                              > and the
                                              > > splinter).
                                              > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                              compassion)
                                              > before
                                              > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                              > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                              > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                              > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                              > outside the
                                              > > limits of the
                                              > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                              > respect for
                                              > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                              Truth.
                                              > Failure
                                              > > to
                                              > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                              > ecumenism.
                                              > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                              > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                              > Judaism, people
                                              > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                              > originated in an
                                              > > adulteration of the creed,
                                              > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                              > are the
                                              > > last faithful.
                                              > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                              > sacred duty
                                              > > is to preserve it.
                                              > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                              > us.
                                              > >
                                              > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                              world.
                                              > The world
                                              > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                              hold
                                              > the
                                              > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                              thus
                                              > the
                                              > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                              > differently
                                              > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                              of
                                              > respect.
                                              > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                              > >
                                              > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                              of
                                              > the
                                              > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                              > brothers does
                                              > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                              > offending
                                              > > them, on the contrary:
                                              > >
                                              > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                              > they are
                                              > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                              > they have
                                              > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                              parish,
                                              > since
                                              > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                              know
                                              > that
                                              > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                              > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                              > them to
                                              > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                              > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                              must
                                              > show
                                              > > understanding,
                                              > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                              ourselves.
                                              > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                              from
                                              > the
                                              > > devil
                                              > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                              > saving them.
                                              > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                              > not an
                                              > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                              contrary,
                                              > in
                                              > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                              is
                                              > like a
                                              > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                              cured
                                              > if those
                                              > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                              > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                              > heresy
                                              > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                              but
                                              > one of
                                              > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                              our
                                              > Church
                                              > > is right
                                              > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                              and
                                              > we
                                              > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                              taught
                                              > by our
                                              > > Church.
                                              > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                              be
                                              > helped out
                                              > > too.
                                              > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                              sisters
                                              > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                              > heresy
                                              > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                              > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                              > communion with
                                              > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                              is
                                              > the
                                              > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                              > >
                                              > > In Christ's love,
                                              > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                              > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                              > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                              > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                              > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                              > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                              of
                                              > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                              people
                                              > of
                                              > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                              > has
                                              > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                              > victims,
                                              > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                              > >
                                              > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                              as
                                              > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                              SF
                                              > > cathedral several years back.
                                              > >
                                              > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                              and
                                              > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                              > Orthodox
                                              > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                              > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                              > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                              > >
                                              > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                              pious
                                              > of
                                              > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                              > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                              > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                              > >
                                              > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                              eye,
                                              > but
                                              > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                              hypocrite,
                                              > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                              > see
                                              > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                              > >
                                              > > In Christ's love,
                                              > > Elizabeth
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                              > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                              > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                              describe a
                                              > > very
                                              > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                              > looks
                                              > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                              > > position.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                              Church
                                              > > Abroad of
                                              > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                              describes
                                              > a
                                              > > four-day
                                              > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                              > 8/21.
                                              > > The
                                              > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                              > > co-celebrated
                                              > > > with Serbian priests.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                              > > Churches.
                                              > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                              > How
                                              > > can we
                                              > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                              > with
                                              > > the
                                              > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                              > > relative to
                                              > > > our Church's.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                              > line
                                              > > of the
                                              > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                              > > Church,
                                              > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                              > > obedience
                                              > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                              > > confuse time?
                                              > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                              not?
                                              > > If not,
                                              > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                              > priests
                                              > > from
                                              > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                              > been
                                              > > heard by
                                              > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                              > that
                                              > > they did
                                              > > > not obey.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In Christ,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            • vkozyreff
                                              Dear Irina, dear List, We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, : Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been ongoing
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                Dear Irina, dear List,

                                                We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, :

                                                "Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                                                ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                                                ROCOR and MP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                                                (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                                                basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                                                declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                                                the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                                                division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                                                abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                                                circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                                                diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared. It is clear that
                                                the authors of the declaration are simplifying the historical facts
                                                extremely: the line of the church division by no
                                                means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                                                declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                                                sacraments."

                                                Vl Mark held those talks and made that declaration without the
                                                blessing of the Metropolitan, I think. I do not think the last
                                                statement reflects our Church's position. Please correct me if I am
                                                wrong.

                                                As we all remember, and as can be found in our Church new webwsite,
                                                however, Vl Gabriel wrote the following about Igumen Joachim had
                                                unapproved contacts with the MP and was subsequently excluded from
                                                our Church. How do we reconcile these events?

                                                "… Fr. Joachim made several trips to Russia, meeting with
                                                Metropolitan Kirill, the chairman of the M.P.'s Department of
                                                External Church Affairs, and later with the Patriarch himself. When
                                                Fr. Joachim states that he received a blessing to travel to Russia,
                                                this also does not correspond to the truth. …

                                                Fr. Joachim also mentions that he made a second trip, having received
                                                an invitation from Metropolitan Kirill. He knew that he would not
                                                have received a blessing for such a trip. Thus, referring to an
                                                authority which no one had ever given him, Fr. Joachim again
                                                travelled for an official meeting with representatives of the M.P.

                                                The main reason for Fr. Joachim's suspension were the trips and
                                                meetings he made without hierarchical blessing.

                                                Before Fr. Joachim left, I asked him whether he truly believed that
                                                now was the time to unite with all the local Orthodox Churches, when
                                                the majority of them continue to depart from the Truth and from
                                                traditional Orthodoxy. In reply to this, he said that we need to be
                                                in communion with everyone."

                                                In God,

                                                Vladimir Kozyreff

                                                http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Y4-
                                                u4FBRtkQC:www.synod.com/letters/2001-10-20-reply-of-b-gabriel-to-fr-
                                                joachim.html+joachim+parr+russian+orthodox&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
                                              • vkozyreff
                                                Dear List, Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                  Dear List,

                                                  Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.

                                                  "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked
                                                  down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up
                                                  to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
                                                  11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1] himself: 'God, I thank
                                                  you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or
                                                  even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth
                                                  of all I get.'
                                                  13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look
                                                  up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a
                                                  sinner.'
                                                  14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home
                                                  justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be
                                                  humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

                                                  I do not think the parable applies here. We are not proud not to be
                                                  like the Sergianists. We do not expect any reward. We just look for
                                                  God. Is He with those who betrayed Christ or with those who gave
                                                  their life for Him? We are humbly obeying the Church. The Sergianists
                                                  do not believe in Christ, since they believe and claim that His
                                                  Church needed the intervention of Satan (lies, heresy) to be saved.

                                                  Moreover, they expelled from their "Church" those who gave their
                                                  lives for Christ's Truth. The parable does not give us as an example
                                                  to follow a Publican who gives to the executioner those who
                                                  acknowledge Christ before men, neither a Publican who claims this is
                                                  the right thing to do. What saves man is his faith in Christ.

                                                  Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
                                                  (Luke 7:49-51)

                                                  The choice is not between the MP and us. We are not part of the
                                                  equation. The choice is between the two ways Russians faced the
                                                  communist persecutions.
                                                  - the Sergianists who betrayed Christ by claiming He needed a hand
                                                  from the devil to rescue his Church and
                                                  - those who acknowledged Christ in front of men and gave their life
                                                  for Christ. That is the millions of martyrs that the Sergianists have
                                                  insulted as "counterrevolutionaries" and who indeed have saved the
                                                  Church by their faith in Christ.

                                                  This being said, we must remember that nobody is obligated to be a
                                                  martyr and that anything can be obtained from anybody by torture. So
                                                  I do not condemn those who were not strong enough to resist (I,
                                                  sinner, would not have resisted), but we may say the stand taken by
                                                  Vl Sergii was wrong, even if obtained by torture.

                                                  Let me plead for Ms Roznianskaya. She is not infamous. She certainly
                                                  did commit mistakes, of which we all suffered. We will be judged as
                                                  we judge. I know I will need mercy on the day of the last judgement,
                                                  that is why I insist here. We must not insult her. As you know, she
                                                  is now co-operating with the Synod about V. Vitaly's return, which
                                                  leads to believe that she confessed and was already pardoned by God.
                                                  Pardoned, that is as though the sin that we committed never took
                                                  place.
                                                  "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a
                                                  stone at her." (John 8:6-8)"

                                                  In Christ's love,

                                                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                                                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                                  > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                                  >
                                                  > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                                  > then!
                                                  >
                                                  > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                                  > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                                  > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                                  of
                                                  > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                                  > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                                  > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                                  >
                                                  > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                                  Vladyka
                                                  > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                                  > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                                  > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                                  > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                                  > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                                  > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                                  > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                                  often
                                                  > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                                  total
                                                  > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                                  > would not have this mess today.
                                                  >
                                                  > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                                  are
                                                  > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                                  > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                                  > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                                  to
                                                  > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                                  > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                                  > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                                  > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                                  > around now...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                                  > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                                  >
                                                  > In Christ's love,
                                                  > Elizabeth
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                  > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                  > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                                  compassion
                                                  > to
                                                  > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                                  > case),
                                                  > > makes you turn a
                                                  > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                                  > are right,
                                                  > > because
                                                  > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                                  beam
                                                  > and the
                                                  > > splinter).
                                                  > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                                  compassion)
                                                  > before
                                                  > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                                  > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                                  > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                                  > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                                  > outside the
                                                  > > limits of the
                                                  > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                                  > respect for
                                                  > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                                  Truth.
                                                  > Failure
                                                  > > to
                                                  > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                                  > ecumenism.
                                                  > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                                  > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                                  > Judaism, people
                                                  > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                                  > originated in an
                                                  > > adulteration of the creed,
                                                  > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                                  > are the
                                                  > > last faithful.
                                                  > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                                  > sacred duty
                                                  > > is to preserve it.
                                                  > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                                  > us.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                                  world.
                                                  > The world
                                                  > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                                  hold
                                                  > the
                                                  > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                                  thus
                                                  > the
                                                  > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                                  > differently
                                                  > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                                  of
                                                  > respect.
                                                  > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                                  of
                                                  > the
                                                  > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                                  > brothers does
                                                  > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                                  > offending
                                                  > > them, on the contrary:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                                  > they are
                                                  > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                                  > they have
                                                  > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                                  parish,
                                                  > since
                                                  > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                                  know
                                                  > that
                                                  > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                                  > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                                  > them to
                                                  > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                                  > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                                  must
                                                  > show
                                                  > > understanding,
                                                  > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                                  ourselves.
                                                  > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                                  from
                                                  > the
                                                  > > devil
                                                  > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                                  > saving them.
                                                  > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                                  > not an
                                                  > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                                  contrary,
                                                  > in
                                                  > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                                  is
                                                  > like a
                                                  > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                                  cured
                                                  > if those
                                                  > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                                  > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                                  > heresy
                                                  > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                                  but
                                                  > one of
                                                  > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                                  our
                                                  > Church
                                                  > > is right
                                                  > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                                  and
                                                  > we
                                                  > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                                  taught
                                                  > by our
                                                  > > Church.
                                                  > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                                  be
                                                  > helped out
                                                  > > too.
                                                  > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                                  sisters
                                                  > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                                  > heresy
                                                  > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                                  > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                                  > communion with
                                                  > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                                  is
                                                  > the
                                                  > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In Christ's love,
                                                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                  > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                  > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                                  > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                                  > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                  > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                                  of
                                                  > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                                  people
                                                  > of
                                                  > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                                  > has
                                                  > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                                  > victims,
                                                  > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                                  as
                                                  > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                                  SF
                                                  > > cathedral several years back.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                                  and
                                                  > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                                  > Orthodox
                                                  > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                                  > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                                  > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                                  pious
                                                  > of
                                                  > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                                  > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                                  > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                                  eye,
                                                  > but
                                                  > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                                  hypocrite,
                                                  > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                                  > see
                                                  > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In Christ's love,
                                                  > > Elizabeth
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                  > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                  > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                  describe a
                                                  > > very
                                                  > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                  > looks
                                                  > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                  > > position.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                  Church
                                                  > > Abroad of
                                                  > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                  describes
                                                  > a
                                                  > > four-day
                                                  > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                  > 8/21.
                                                  > > The
                                                  > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                  > > co-celebrated
                                                  > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                  > > Churches.
                                                  > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                  > How
                                                  > > can we
                                                  > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                  > with
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                  > > relative to
                                                  > > > our Church's.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                  > line
                                                  > > of the
                                                  > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                  > > Church,
                                                  > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                  > > obedience
                                                  > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                  > > confuse time?
                                                  > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                  not?
                                                  > > If not,
                                                  > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                  > priests
                                                  > > from
                                                  > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                  > been
                                                  > > heard by
                                                  > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                  > that
                                                  > > they did
                                                  > > > not obey.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > In Christ,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                • frmarkg
                                                  There are various ways to get a list to address a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask a simple question and wait for a response, if there is any
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                    There are various ways to get a list to address
                                                    a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask
                                                    a simple question and wait for a response, if there
                                                    is any interest. Such questions may arise from idle
                                                    curiosity or from a real need to know, but it would
                                                    be hard to characterize them as tactical.

                                                    Another familiar way is in fact just a tactic. A
                                                    person or persons who feel that others need to become
                                                    aware of their own perspective on something will use
                                                    a list to display their own views - initially in the
                                                    form of a question (the bait) but the poster (the
                                                    fisherman) may only be trolling for a little sport.

                                                    I think it is apparent where this entire thread
                                                    about Archbp Mark is leading. We have now gotten to
                                                    Metropolitan Vitaly and his secretary. No doubt we
                                                    will soon again be in the throes of a struggle on the
                                                    grounds of Mansonville. And why? Because someone
                                                    wanted to make some points that they feel you need to
                                                    know.

                                                    I think it is time to stop the multiple answers
                                                    to unasked questions. This list is not meant to be
                                                    a place where you can post polemics for many people
                                                    to see. Unlike other lists, I will not restrict
                                                    posting privileges just because someone asks a question
                                                    about a controverisal topic - for the right reasons -
                                                    but there is wisdom in not allowing a topic to dominate
                                                    and set the tone on the list such that the average
                                                    layman doesn't want to participate.

                                                    This list has been, and I'm sure still is, the only
                                                    readily accessible means for some members of our church
                                                    to communicate with their co-religionists. Let's use
                                                    it for the benefit of these who really need this list.

                                                    Mark Markish coined a phrase on the ORTHODOX list
                                                    many years ago to cover such situations. Rather than
                                                    to take bait and cause a struggle to ensue, or to insult
                                                    or otherwise demean someone who is being stupid in your
                                                    eyes, simply "Politely ignore" them. If you see someone's
                                                    arguments or manner as wrong, so does just about everyone
                                                    else. It is not necessary to point this out and lower
                                                    yourself in the process.

                                                    But politely ignoring the undesitable doesn't mean
                                                    to stay quiet - take advantage of this medium - don't
                                                    leave a vacuum of non-participation into which will flow
                                                    all sorts of undesirable things.

                                                    In Christ,
                                                    priest Mark
                                                  • Tim Andrews
                                                    Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to humbly make a
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                      Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                                      followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                                      humbly make a short note.

                                                      Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                                      of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                                      the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                                      received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                                      share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                                      signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                                      be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                                      example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                                      co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                                      "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                                      Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                                      there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                                      would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                                      make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                                      law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                                      in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                                      Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                                      conjunction with them as well.
                                                      Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                                      respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                                      hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                                      My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                                      While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                                      that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                                      a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                                      forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                                      past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                                      said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                                      immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                                      were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                                      schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                                      ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                                      Forgive me if I have offended,
                                                      Timothy Andrews
                                                    • joeswaydyn2000
                                                      Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position? ... had ... of the ... Memory, ... Synodal ... our ... truth ... we share ... we point ...
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
                                                        Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position?

                                                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                        > http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm
                                                        >
                                                        > October 15/ 28, 1986
                                                        > The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich,
                                                        had
                                                        > become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president
                                                        of the
                                                        > World Council of Churches.
                                                        > under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed
                                                        Memory,
                                                        > was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our
                                                        Synodal
                                                        > bishops.
                                                        > The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                                        > ecumenism in word and deed..
                                                        > .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under
                                                        our
                                                        > Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                                        > Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal
                                                        truth
                                                        > remains constant and unchanging.
                                                        > If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because
                                                        we share
                                                        > the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that
                                                        we point
                                                        > out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                                        > The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to
                                                        condone their
                                                        > violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                                        > Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never
                                                        condoned
                                                        > doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution,
                                                        cannot
                                                        > determine what the Church teaches.
                                                        >
                                                        > In God
                                                        >
                                                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                        > De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@m...]
                                                        > Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                                        > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                        > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever
                                                        formally issued
                                                        > a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone
                                                        knows to
                                                        > the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist
                                                        takeover, we
                                                        > were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy
                                                        under
                                                        > Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no
                                                        definitive break
                                                        > with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.
                                                        >
                                                        > Hristofor
                                                        >
                                                        > At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                                        > >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                                        > >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                                        > >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                                        > >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                                        > >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                                        > >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration
                                                        was
                                                        > >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                                        > >with.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                                        > >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                                        > >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                                        > >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                                        > >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Joseph
                                                        > >
                                                        > >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                        > ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                        > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                        describe a
                                                        > >very
                                                        > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                        looks
                                                        > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                        > >position.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                        Church
                                                        > >Abroad of
                                                        > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                        describes a
                                                        > >four-day
                                                        > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                        > >8/21. The
                                                        > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                        co-
                                                        > >celebrated
                                                        > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                        > >Churches.
                                                        > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                        How
                                                        > >can we
                                                        > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                        > >with the
                                                        > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                        > >relative to
                                                        > > > our Church's.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                        line
                                                        > >of the
                                                        > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                        > >Church,
                                                        > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                        > >obedience
                                                        > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                        > >confuse time?
                                                        > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                        not?
                                                        > >If not,
                                                        > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                        > >priests from
                                                        > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                        been
                                                        > >heard by
                                                        > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                        that
                                                        > >they did
                                                        > > > not obey.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > In Christ,
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                      • Michael Nikitin
                                                        When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn t serve with them no
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 23, 2002
                                                          When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve
                                                          with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn't serve with
                                                          them no matter if the others do. This is what they say when things are
                                                          unstable.
                                                          We have no reason for dialogue. They will not learn anything that they don't
                                                          already know. Our dialogue with them will only cause us to acquiesce to
                                                          ecumenism and the WCC. What's to stop us from having dialogue in the WCC?
                                                          After all maybe we can help those in the WCC also?
                                                          Do not fall into deceit. When you grow older you will understand.

                                                          MN


                                                          From: "Tim Andrews" <ireand@...>
                                                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                                          To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                          Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:44:01 +1000


                                                          Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                                          followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                                          humbly make a short note.

                                                          Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                                          of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                                          the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                                          received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                                          share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                                          signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                                          be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                                          example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                                          co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                                          "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                                          Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                                          there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                                          would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                                          make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                                          law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                                          in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                                          Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                                          conjunction with them as well.
                                                          Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                                          respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                                          hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                                          My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                                          While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                                          that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                                          a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                                          forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                                          past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                                          said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                                          immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                                          were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                                          schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                                          ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                                          Forgive me if I have offended,
                                                          Timothy Andrews



                                                          _________________________________________________________________
                                                          Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.