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Re: Interview with Vl. Mark

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  • boulia_1
    And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these responses: to QUESTION 1: There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 13, 2002
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      And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
      responses:

      to QUESTION 1:
      There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is answering
      the real questions - why call them "off-base"?


      I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
      think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
      honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
      not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse, taking
      words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!

      Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
      OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
      the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
      expectations."...

      With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
      over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
      (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
      have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
      attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
      consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY opinion,
      and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.

      As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
      "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
      agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
      looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
      headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve that
      issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
      inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its Hodigitria
      for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
      unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and churches
      to them...

      Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
      weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.

      I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
      respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
      know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems to
      be the case all too often.

      And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
      some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
      heartbreaking.

      Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.

      Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,

      Elizabeth
    • vladimir kozyreff
      Christ is risen! Dear Elisabeth, You write: As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label Stalinism (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 13, 2002
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        Christ is risen!

        Dear Elisabeth,

        You write:

        "As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
        "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
        agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
        looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
        headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve that
        issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
        inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its Hodigitria
        for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
        unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and churches
        to them... "

        It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
        "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them must be
        the ex-KGB officers and their
        head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may develop
        relationship
        as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.

        If we develop friendly personal relations with the believers in Russia, this
        is
        a totally different matter. In our parish, we were very happy to receive
        twice a miraculous
        icon of the Tsar Martyr Nicholas II that was brought to us by a friend from
        Moscow
        who is a parishioner of the MP. When in Russia, I often attended the liturgy
        in MP
        churches and became very friendly with believers and priests of the MP.
        So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined without any
        ground.

        Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because it was
        created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
        to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the MP
        cannot be part of the Church.
        Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot understand
        that the Synod
        allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only confusion. The
        Church
        and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.

        The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been claiming
        that this
        compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This statement
        is an outrage to the martyrs,
        is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of heresy
        cannot be part of the Church.

        Matthew 10
        32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
        Father in heaven.
        33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in
        heaven.

        I never said that I "condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
        looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
        headed by people with questionable motives".

        I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just consider
        that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who told you
        ever that this
        was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
        sergianists?

        Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of Sergianism.
        We pray for
        those who indulge in, and we pray God to open the eyes of those who believe
        that they should be tolerant
        to heresy out of love for the neighbour, compassion, or fear for
        "fundamentalism".

        I also pray God that He give our hierarchs the courage to be clear, to
        inspire trust, to abstain from
        compromission and to lead the Christians to God.

        In Christ, with brotherly love.

        Vladimir Kozyreff


        -----Message d'origine-----
        De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
        Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
        A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


        And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
        responses:

        to QUESTION 1:
        There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is answering
        the real questions - why call them "off-base"?


        I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
        think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
        honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
        not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse, taking
        words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!

        Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
        OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
        the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
        expectations."...

        With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
        over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
        (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
        have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
        attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
        consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY opinion,
        and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.

        As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
        "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
        agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
        looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they are
        headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve that
        issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
        inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its Hodigitria
        for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
        unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and churches
        to them...

        Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
        weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.

        I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
        respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
        know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems to
        be the case all too often.

        And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
        some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
        heartbreaking.

        Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.

        Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,

        Elizabeth





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      • goossir
        Dear Elizabeth, As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of my
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
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          Dear Elizabeth,

          As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also
          privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of
          my letters, posted previously on this topic to the official chat site
          were never published - it seems some censorship was working. So this
          time I wanted to make sure that it attained its correspondents - and
          it worked.

          I do thank you for your openness to dialogue. It is only by
          exchanging our views clearly that perhaps we will get out of this
          hole in which our Church is for the moment and force people who do
          not want to hear and see to finally open their ears and eyes.
          Vladimir K. already answered many of your remarks so I will not go
          back to them as, personally, I fully agree with his approach.

          Regarding Vl. Mark, Joaquim Wertz said that we can call him or write
          to him - good idea but I do not have his phone number or address - so
          perhaps he could provide it.

          Still, something is puzzling me. The Monastery of the Trinity St
          Sergius in Russia was in those days (and still is) totally part of
          the MP who was totally subdued to the Communist regime. So how can
          someone following our path envisage that their curriculum is better
          than Jordanville in the matter of spirituality?? Even if the quality
          of the general subjects in Jordanville were not taught top grade, a
          faithful person will not go to people who made a pact with satan
          (which is actually what communism is, like it or not). I guess Vl
          Mark will have difficulties explaining this to me!

          Vl Mark is also quite silent about the several appeals made by the 10
          priests (12 at the time) of the European dioceses and their request
          of an ecclesiastical judgment, already back in 1999, and that no
          answer EVER came from the Synod. He just waves them away as a bunch
          of "extremists" deserving their suspension made after a quick and
          grotesque judgment defying any ecclesiastic rules. And what about
          the events in Mansonville??? Can any Christian approve sincerely
          what happened there? Is this the way churchmen should behave?
          I know, Dear Elizabeth, that you cannot answer these questions -
          neither do I, but they were put hundred times to bishops, priests in
          the Synod and they were never really answered up to now.

          Many reply: who are we to demand from our bishops? We should obey
          and pray - and that is all. Personally I think it is erroneous as
          Christ asked us to judge. When someone asked him: How shall we
          recognise where is the true Church, he answered: You will judge them
          by their fruits. (I quote more or less out of memory).
          Blind obedience could be very dangerous. This is what we
          call "papist"

          In Christ,
          Irina Goossens
        • boulia_1
          Dear Vladimir and lurkers, ... must be ... develop ... OK, but who is capable of convincing them to renounce the past (something toward which huge strides
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
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            Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

            To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


            >
            > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
            > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
            must be
            > the ex-KGB officers and their
            > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
            develop
            > relationship
            > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
            >

            OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
            (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
            glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
            leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
            doesn't exist!

            Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
            society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
            were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
            the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
            spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
            already a MIRACLE.

            If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
            leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
            indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
            the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
            perhaps Islam?

            Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
            the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
            intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
            generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
            now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
            as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
            includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
            or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
            continue to provide guidance!



            >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
            without
            any
            > ground.

            I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
            what I have witnessed in others.

            >
            > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
            it was
            > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
            > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
            MP
            > cannot be part of the Church.

            If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


            > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
            understand
            > that the Synod
            > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
            confusion. The
            > Church
            > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
            >

            I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
            was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
            opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
            credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
            controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



            > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
            claiming
            > that this
            > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
            statement
            > is an outrage to the martyrs,
            > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
            heresy
            > cannot be part of the Church.

            This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
            calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

            >
            > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
            consider
            > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
            told you
            > ever that this
            > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
            > sergianists?
            >
            > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
            Sergianism.


            In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
            strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
            mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
            accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
            without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
            sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
            is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
            "four" regarding 2+2...

            I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
            critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
            them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
            'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
            our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
            goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
            of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

            I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

            In the ascended Christ,
            Elizabeth



            >
            > -----Message d'origine-----
            > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
            > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
            > A : orthodox-synod@y...
            > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
            >
            >
            > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
            > responses:
            >
            > to QUESTION 1:
            > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
            answering
            > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
            >
            >
            > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
            > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
            > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
            > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
            taking
            > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
            >
            > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
            > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
            > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
            > expectations."...
            >
            > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
            > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
            > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
            > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
            > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
            > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
            opinion,
            > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
            >
            > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
            > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
            > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
            > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
            are
            > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
            that
            > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
            > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
            Hodigitria
            > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
            > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
            churches
            > to them...
            >
            > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
            > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
            >
            > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
            > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
            > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
            to
            > be the case all too often.
            >
            > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
            > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
            > heartbreaking.
            >
            > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
            >
            > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
            >
            > Elizabeth
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • vladimir kozyreff
            Dear Elisabeth, Below, I respond to your successive points. OK, but who is capable of convincing them to renounce the past (something toward which huge
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
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              Dear Elisabeth,

              Below, I respond to your successive points.

              OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
              (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
              glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)?

              Any means legitimate may be used to influence them. The least
              legitimate is to tolerate their claiming that their past behaviour
              was inspired by the holy Spirit and that their excommunicating the martyrs
              was blessed by Christ. Any other way is accepting a totally wrong concept of
              Christianity.

              We cannot have our leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that
              the huge MP doesn't exist!

              Alas we know too well that it exists. It is even the cause of our discord.

              Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
              society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
              were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
              the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
              spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
              already a MIRACLE.

              I agree with you.

              Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
              the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
              intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
              generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
              now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
              as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
              includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
              or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
              continue to provide guidance!

              I agree totally with you. Our mission is in Russia.

              If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

              I am totally with you.

              I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
              was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
              opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
              credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
              controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

              What is not clear is that bishops have personal views that are different
              From those of the Church. For Instance, Vl Ambrosius thinks that sergianism
              is not thatv important and that only psychological obstacles remain between
              us and the MP. This personal view is open knowledge, many times confirmed,
              but of course, the oficial discourse is different. The accusation that the
              Synod has never accepeted to judge concerns certain deeds of Vl Ambrosius
              that were in line with what is known as his personal views. This is an
              example of intolerable confusion.

              This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
              calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

              Condemning somebody is stating his culpability. As Christains, we are not
              entitled to condemn our neighbour, but we must resist his wrongdoings. We
              have the duty to distinguish between the good and the evil. Identifying a
              proposal that is incompatible with Christ's teaching is identifying a
              heresy. We must exercise our spiritual judgement. A Christian must be
              misericordious for the sinner but intolerant to the sin.


              In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
              strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
              mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
              accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
              without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
              sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
              is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
              "four" regarding 2+2...

              The fact that baptism or ordinations are not re-done is just an application
              of "oeconomia", a rule of the Church by which derogations are made to the
              canons when it helps people to return to the truth, and when it is in the
              interest of the person in question, in the interest of the Church and in the
              interest of the Truth. I know your argument is often used in our discussion,
              but it is not right.

              Concerning the heretical nature of sergianism, I refer you to my previous
              communications below.


              From: "Vladimir Kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
              Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:45 pm
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


              I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
              stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
              teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
              heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
              themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

              This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
              question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

              In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
              Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
              collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
              the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
              temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
              martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
              Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
              Spirit.

              " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
              Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
              before my Father in heaven".

              The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
              knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
              will remain anathema.

              This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
              Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
              is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
              stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

              In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
              anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
              wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
              in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

              From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
              Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:45 pm
              Subject: Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

              Dear Father Seraphim,

              You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
              heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".

              Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
              distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":

              1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
              in deeds.
              2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
              Church.

              Both of them are heretical.

              Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
              collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
              is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
              that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
              contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.

              (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
              with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
              thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
              Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
              promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
              heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
              seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
              that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:

              Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
              Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
              had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
              Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
              You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
              opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
              is heretical too.
              In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
              that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
              not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
              counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
              is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
              action that displeased God is heretical too.

              It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
              explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
              heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
              Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
              we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
              can see it.

              Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
              our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
              schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
              same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
              the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
              As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
              start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
              nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
              orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.

              I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
              critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
              them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
              'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
              our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
              goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
              of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

              Dear Elisabeth, be sure that I am very close to you in my love to Russia and
              in my belief that the return to the truth of our brothers and sisters in
              Russia is my greatest concern. I feel very humble, because I might have been
              less resistant than them to the terrible spiritual ordeal that they
              experienced. I never thaught of judging them. I agree that we should show
              them love and understanding and not adopt an out of place attitude of
              superiority.

              That is why I cannot agree with Vl Mark message, which is that our Church
              must forget that it once was Russian, the MP is good enough to be the Church
              of Russia that we dreamed to be. It is not realistic for us to dream of our
              return. We will sign a kind of Yalta agreement with the MP and attribute to
              both a sphere of influence.

              My love to Russia is the most important part of my life. I am sure that we
              will make peace, you and I, after we have put aside apparent superficial
              disagreements.

              Forgive me if I have iritated you. I appreciate a lot your kind attention.

              With love in Christ.

              Vladimir Kozyreff




              -----Message d'origine-----
              De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
              Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
              A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


              Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

              To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


              >
              > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
              > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
              must be
              > the ex-KGB officers and their
              > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
              develop
              > relationship
              > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
              >

              OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
              (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
              glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
              leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
              doesn't exist!

              Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
              society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
              were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
              the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
              spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
              already a MIRACLE.

              If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
              leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
              indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
              the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
              perhaps Islam?

              Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
              the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
              intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
              generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
              now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
              as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
              includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
              or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
              continue to provide guidance!



              >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
              without
              any
              > ground.

              I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
              what I have witnessed in others.

              >
              > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
              it was
              > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
              > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
              MP
              > cannot be part of the Church.

              If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


              > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
              understand
              > that the Synod
              > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
              confusion. The
              > Church
              > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
              >

              I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
              was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
              opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
              credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
              controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



              > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
              claiming
              > that this
              > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
              statement
              > is an outrage to the martyrs,
              > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
              heresy
              > cannot be part of the Church.

              This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
              calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

              >
              > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
              consider
              > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
              told you
              > ever that this
              > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
              > sergianists?
              >
              > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
              Sergianism.


              In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
              strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
              mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
              accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
              without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
              sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
              is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
              "four" regarding 2+2...

              I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
              critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
              them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
              'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
              our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
              goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
              of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

              I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

              In the ascended Christ,
              Elizabeth



              >
              > -----Message d'origine-----
              > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
              > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
              > A : orthodox-synod@y...
              > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
              >
              >
              > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
              > responses:
              >
              > to QUESTION 1:
              > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
              answering
              > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
              >
              >
              > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
              > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
              > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
              > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
              taking
              > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
              >
              > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
              > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
              > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
              > expectations."...
              >
              > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
              > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
              > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
              > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
              > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
              > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
              opinion,
              > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
              >
              > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
              > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
              > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
              > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
              are
              > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
              that
              > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
              > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
              Hodigitria
              > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
              > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
              churches
              > to them...
              >
              > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
              > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
              >
              > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
              > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
              > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
              to
              > be the case all too often.
              >
              > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
              > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
              > heartbreaking.
              >
              > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
              >
              > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
              >
              > Elizabeth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Joachim Wertz
              Dear Irina, First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark. However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 14, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Irina,

                First of all, I personally did not suggest that you call or write Vl. Mark.
                However I do believe that his phone number is 49-089-834-8959 and his email
                is hiobmon@..., at least that is the latest information I have access
                to.

                According to the interview published in "Kontinent" (no. 98 [4], 1998) pp.
                284-286, Vl. Mark's spiritual father at the Skete of the Prophet Elias on
                the Holy Mountain gave him an obedience to study theology. Now bearing in
                mind that Vl. Mark already possessed a doctorate and was well versed in
                Patristics , Russian Orthodox spirituality, as well as having spent
                considerable time on Mt. Athos, it can be implied from the context that it
                was meant that he study what we would call theology at GRADUATE level.
                Jordanville is a SEMINARY, not an ecclesiastical academy or theological
                faculty. It's main purpose is to train priests and give them the basics of
                theology, liturgics, Church music, pastoral care, apologetics, etc. Many of
                its students have traditionally entered the seminary lacking the equivalent
                of a college degree (US). This is not a criticism, but a statement of the
                situation. The Jordanville seminary serves its defined purpose well. But I
                am drifting from my point. It should be mentioned that Vl. Mark applied to
                the Moscow Ecclesiastical Academy located at the Trinity-St. Sergius
                Monastery, to be admitted as a CORRESPONDENCE STUDENT (just for the record).
                AFTER obtaining his theological education in Belgrade, Bp. Pavel suggested
                to Vl. Mark that he go to Jordanville since the Bishop thought that Vl.
                Mark's knowledge and talents would be useful at the seminary. I do not know
                why this did not come to fruition. So you see that Vl. Mark went to America
                to look into a possible position at Jordanville, not to be a student. Upon
                his return from America, Vl. Mark told Bp. Pavel that what he wanted was to
                serve in the German Diocese.

                I do not have any clear knowledge of the events in the European dioceses you
                mention and will not comment on them.

                In the email you sent to me personally, you mention that Mr. V. Kozyreff was
                called a "fundamentalist". I did not so call him.

                Let me say that I know Vl. Mark personally, having met him in NY shortly
                after his consecration and later I was a pilgrim at his monastery in Munich.
                I spoke with him briefly by telephone when he was in NY in the mid-90's.
                That was the last contact I had with him. I respect him highly.

                In Christ,

                Joachim Wertz

                ----------
                From: "goossir" <irene.goossens@...>
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                Date: Fri, Jun 14, 2002, 5:07 AM


                Dear Elizabeth,

                As you can see I have made public my little note. I sent it also
                privately to each participant in this discussion just because some of
                my letters, posted previously on this topic to the official chat site
                were never published - it seems some censorship was working. So this
                time I wanted to make sure that it attained its correspondents - and
                it worked.

                I do thank you for your openness to dialogue. It is only by
                exchanging our views clearly that perhaps we will get out of this
                hole in which our Church is for the moment and force people who do
                not want to hear and see to finally open their ears and eyes.
                Vladimir K. already answered many of your remarks so I will not go
                back to them as, personally, I fully agree with his approach.

                Regarding Vl. Mark, Joaquim Wertz said that we can call him or write
                to him - good idea but I do not have his phone number or address - so
                perhaps he could provide it.

                Still, something is puzzling me. The Monastery of the Trinity St
                Sergius in Russia was in those days (and still is) totally part of
                the MP who was totally subdued to the Communist regime. So how can
                someone following our path envisage that their curriculum is better
                than Jordanville in the matter of spirituality?? Even if the quality
                of the general subjects in Jordanville were not taught top grade, a
                faithful person will not go to people who made a pact with satan
                (which is actually what communism is, like it or not). I guess Vl
                Mark will have difficulties explaining this to me!

                Vl Mark is also quite silent about the several appeals made by the 10
                priests (12 at the time) of the European dioceses and their request
                of an ecclesiastical judgment, already back in 1999, and that no
                answer EVER came from the Synod. He just waves them away as a bunch
                of "extremists" deserving their suspension made after a quick and
                grotesque judgment defying any ecclesiastic rules. And what about
                the events in Mansonville??? Can any Christian approve sincerely
                what happened there? Is this the way churchmen should behave?
                I know, Dear Elizabeth, that you cannot answer these questions -
                neither do I, but they were put hundred times to bishops, priests in
                the Synod and they were never really answered up to now.

                Many reply: who are we to demand from our bishops? We should obey
                and pray - and that is all. Personally I think it is erroneous as
                Christ asked us to judge. When someone asked him: How shall we
                recognise where is the true Church, he answered: You will judge them
                by their fruits. (I quote more or less out of memory).
                Blind obedience could be very dangerous. This is what we
                call "papist"

                In Christ,
                Irina Goossens






                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • vladimir kozyreff
                Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus the Confessor, said in the 7th century: I do not desire heretics to be tormented
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 15, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here for example is what that well known defender of Orthodoxy, St. Maximus
                  the Confessor, said in the 7th century: "I do not desire heretics to be
                  tormented and do not rejoice in their evil - God forbid! But I rejoice the
                  more so in their conversion... I have not so far lost my reason as to value
                  mercilessness above love for others...

                  But despite this I say that heretics cannot be helped by confirming them in
                  their insane beliefs, here one has to be blunt and uncompromising.
                  For I call it not love, but hatred for one's fellow men and a falling away
                  from
                  Divine love when anyone confirms heretics in their errors, leading to
                  the inevitable perdition of these people."

                  This is why the ROCA has never confirmed the MP in its errors by
                  hypocritically
                  recognizing its "lawfulness" and "fullness," the "grace of its Church life,"
                  or that it is supposedly a "part" of the one Russian Church, for the
                  inevitable
                  perdition of whatever is still alive in the MP.

                  Archpriest Lev Lebedeff
                  Great Lent 1998
                  Kursk.

                  -----Message d'origine-----
                  De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                  Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                  A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                  Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                  To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                  >
                  > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                  > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                  must be
                  > the ex-KGB officers and their
                  > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                  develop
                  > relationship
                  > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                  >

                  OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                  (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                  glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                  leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                  doesn't exist!

                  Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                  society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                  were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                  the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                  spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                  already a MIRACLE.

                  If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                  leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                  indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                  the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                  perhaps Islam?

                  Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                  the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                  intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                  generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                  now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                  as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                  includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                  or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                  continue to provide guidance!



                  >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                  without
                  any
                  > ground.

                  I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                  what I have witnessed in others.

                  >
                  > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                  it was
                  > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                  > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                  MP
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                  > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                  understand
                  > that the Synod
                  > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                  confusion. The
                  > Church
                  > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                  >

                  I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                  was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                  opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                  credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                  controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                  > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                  claiming
                  > that this
                  > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                  statement
                  > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                  > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                  heresy
                  > cannot be part of the Church.

                  This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                  calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                  >
                  > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                  consider
                  > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                  told you
                  > ever that this
                  > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                  > sergianists?
                  >
                  > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                  Sergianism.


                  In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                  strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                  mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                  accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                  without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                  sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                  is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                  "four" regarding 2+2...

                  I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                  critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                  them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                  'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                  our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                  goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                  of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                  I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                  In the ascended Christ,
                  Elizabeth



                  >
                  > -----Message d'origine-----
                  > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                  > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                  > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                  > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                  >
                  >
                  > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                  > responses:
                  >
                  > to QUESTION 1:
                  > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                  answering
                  > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                  >
                  >
                  > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                  > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                  > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                  > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                  taking
                  > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                  >
                  > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                  > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                  > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                  > expectations."...
                  >
                  > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                  > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                  > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                  > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                  > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                  > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                  opinion,
                  > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                  >
                  > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                  > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                  > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                  > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                  are
                  > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                  that
                  > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                  > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                  Hodigitria
                  > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                  > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                  churches
                  > to them...
                  >
                  > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                  > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                  >
                  > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                  > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                  > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                  to
                  > be the case all too often.
                  >
                  > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                  > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                  > heartbreaking.
                  >
                  > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                  >
                  > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                  >
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • vladimir kozyreff
                  Dear Elisabeth and others, I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 16, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Elisabeth and others,

                    I apologise for my message sent on the 15th: it was inadvertently sent
                    before it was ready. I would like to request the moderator to delete it
                    and to replace it by the following one, which I have now finalised.


                    Below, I respond to your successive points.

                    >OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                    >(something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                    >glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)?

                    Any legitimate means may be used to influence them. Pretending to accept
                    that their past collaboration with the communist regime was
                    inspired by the holy Spirit and that their excommunicating the martyrs was
                    blessed by Christ is not legitimate. This would amount to adopt a totally
                    wrong concept of Christianity and of the Church.

                    >We cannot have our leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that
                    >the huge MP doesn't exist!

                    Alas we know too well that it exists. It is even the cause of our discord.

                    >Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                    >society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                    >we>re raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                    >the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                    >spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                    >already a MIRACLE.

                    I agree with you.

                    >Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                    >the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                    >intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                    >generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                    >now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                    >as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                    >includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                    >or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                    >continue to provide guidance!

                    I agree totally with you. Our mission is in Russia. This does not seem to be
                    Vl Mark's opinion however.

                    >If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.

                    I am totally with you.

                    >I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                    >was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                    >opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                    >credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                    >controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!

                    What is not clear is that bishops allow themselves to have personal views
                    that are different from those of the Church and to publish them. For
                    Instance, Vl Ambrosius thinks that sergianism is not that important. He
                    believes that only psychological obstacles remain between us and the MP.
                    This personal view is well known and was many times confirmed, even in
                    private conversations with him. Of course, his official discourse is
                    different. The accusation that the Synod never accepted to judge concerns
                    certain actions of Vl Ambrosius, that were in line with his personal views
                    and that contradict the teaching of the Church. This is an example of
                    intolerable confusion.

                    >This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                    >calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                    Condemning somebody is stating his culpability. As Christians, we are not
                    entitled to condemn our neighbour. We must however resist his wrongdoings.
                    We
                    have the duty to distinguish between the good and the evil. Identifying a
                    proposal that is incompatible with Christ's teaching is identifying a
                    heresy. We must exercise our spiritual judgement. A Christian must be
                    merciful for the sinner but intolerant to the sin.

                    >In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                    >strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                    >mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                    >accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                    >without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                    >sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                    >is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                    >"four" regarding 2+2...

                    The fact that baptism or ordinations are not re-done is just an application
                    of "oeconomia". This is a rule of the Church by which derogations are made
                    to the canons when it helps people to return to the truth, when it is in the
                    interest of the person in question, in the interest of the Church and in the
                    interest of the Truth. I know your argument is often used in our discussion,
                    but it is not applicable here.

                    Concerning the heretical nature of sergianism, I refer you to my previous
                    communications below.

                    From: "Vladimir Kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                    Date: Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:45 pm
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


                    I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
                    stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
                    teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
                    heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
                    themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

                    This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
                    question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

                    In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
                    Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
                    collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
                    the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
                    temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
                    martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
                    Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
                    Spirit.

                    " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
                    Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
                    before my Father in heaven".

                    The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
                    knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
                    will remain anathema.

                    This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
                    Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
                    is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
                    stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

                    In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
                    anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
                    wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
                    in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

                    From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                    Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:45 pm
                    Subject: Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

                    Dear Father Seraphim,

                    You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
                    heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".

                    Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
                    distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":

                    1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
                    in deeds.
                    2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
                    Church.

                    Both of them are heretical.

                    Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
                    collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
                    is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
                    that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
                    contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.

                    (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
                    with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
                    thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
                    Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
                    promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
                    heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
                    seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
                    that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:

                    Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
                    Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
                    had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
                    Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
                    You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
                    opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
                    is heretical too.
                    In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
                    that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
                    not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
                    counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
                    is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
                    action that displeased God is heretical too.

                    It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
                    explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
                    heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
                    Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
                    we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
                    can see it.

                    Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
                    our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
                    schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
                    same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
                    the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
                    As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
                    start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
                    nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
                    orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.

                    >I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                    >critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                    >them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                    >'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                    >our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                    >goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                    >of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                    Because of my belief in the calling of our Church, I cannot agree with Vl
                    Mark. His position amounts to stating the following, which is totally
                    unacceptable:
                    - our Church must forget that she once was Russian
                    - the MP is good enough to be the Church of Russia that we dreamed to be
                    - Sergianism is not an issue any longer
                    - We must be realistic: we will never make it
                    - Let us sign a Yalta agreement with the MP. Each "Church" will be allocated
                    a territory of influence and peace will come.

                    Dear Elisabeth, we both love Russia. The return to the truth of our brothers
                    and sisters in Russia is my greatest concern. I feel very humble, because I
                    might have been less resistant than most them to the terrible spiritual
                    ordeal that they experienced. I never thought of judging them. I agree that
                    we should show them love and understanding. We must never adopt an out of
                    place attitude of superiority. Of course, we must talk to them, but never at
                    the expense of the truth. I am sure that we will make peace, you and I,
                    after we have put aside certain disagreements. We might be closer than we
                    think.

                    Forgive me if I have iritated you. I appreciate a lot your kind attention.

                    With love in Christ.

                    Vladimir Kozyreff




                    -----Message d'origine-----
                    De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                    Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                    A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                    Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                    To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                    >
                    > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                    > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                    must be
                    > the ex-KGB officers and their
                    > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                    develop
                    > relationship
                    > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                    >

                    OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                    (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                    glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                    leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                    doesn't exist!

                    Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                    society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                    were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                    the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                    spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                    already a MIRACLE.

                    If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                    leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                    indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                    the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                    perhaps Islam?

                    Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                    the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                    intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                    generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                    now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                    as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                    includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                    or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                    continue to provide guidance!



                    >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                    without
                    any
                    > ground.

                    I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                    what I have witnessed in others.

                    >
                    > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                    it was
                    > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                    > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                    MP
                    > cannot be part of the Church.

                    If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                    > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                    understand
                    > that the Synod
                    > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                    confusion. The
                    > Church
                    > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                    >

                    I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                    was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                    opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                    credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                    controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                    > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                    claiming
                    > that this
                    > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                    statement
                    > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                    > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                    heresy
                    > cannot be part of the Church.

                    This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                    calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                    >
                    > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                    consider
                    > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                    told you
                    > ever that this
                    > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                    > sergianists?
                    >
                    > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                    Sergianism.


                    In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                    strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                    mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                    accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                    without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                    sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                    is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                    "four" regarding 2+2...

                    I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                    critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                    them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                    'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                    our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                    goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                    of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                    I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                    In the ascended Christ,
                    Elizabeth



                    >
                    > -----Message d'origine-----
                    > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                    > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                    > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                    > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                    >
                    >
                    > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                    > responses:
                    >
                    > to QUESTION 1:
                    > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                    answering
                    > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                    >
                    >
                    > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                    > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                    > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                    > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                    taking
                    > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                    >
                    > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                    > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                    > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                    > expectations."...
                    >
                    > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                    > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                    > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                    > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                    > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                    > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                    opinion,
                    > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                    >
                    > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                    > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                    > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                    > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                    are
                    > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                    that
                    > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                    > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                    Hodigitria
                    > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                    > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                    churches
                    > to them...
                    >
                    > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                    > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                    >
                    > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                    > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                    > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                    to
                    > be the case all too often.
                    >
                    > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                    > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                    > heartbreaking.
                    >
                    > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                    >
                    > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                    >
                    > Elizabeth
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                    Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








                    Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                    -----Message d'origine-----
                    De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                    Envoye : vendredi 14 juin 2002 18:27
                    A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                    Dear Vladimir and lurkers,

                    To reponse to your well-made points and respected point of view:


                    >
                    > It is Vl Mark who uses the term "stalinist". If, as he says,
                    > "there are stalinist elements in the MP", the most obvious of them
                    must be
                    > the ex-KGB officers and their
                    > head in particular. They are the latest people with which we may
                    develop
                    > relationship
                    > as long as they do not clearly renounce their past.
                    >

                    OK, but who is capable of convincing them to 'renounce' the past
                    (something toward which huge strides were made by the MP's
                    glorification, at long last, of the New Martyrs)? We cannot have our
                    leaders hide their heads in the sand and pretend that the huge MP
                    doesn't exist!

                    Let us not forget that today's adults in Russia ALL grew up in a
                    society where history was distorted and re-written outright. Children
                    were raised from a small age to NOT believe in God, indoctrinated by
                    the poisonous Marxist-Leninist ideas. That there is any life and
                    spirit in the MP Church at all (and there IS, you cannot deny it!), is
                    already a MIRACLE.

                    If we may not develop relationships with these people and their
                    leaders, then WHO will show the way to all these people who were
                    indoctrinated in a wrong, sinful way? The Baptists and Catholics and
                    the Salvation Army "soldiers" that have tried to flood Russia? Or
                    perhaps Islam?

                    Who preserved the faith, the tradition, the Church? ROCOR DID, with
                    the long-term goal being to return to Russia, with the Church
                    intact. Thus it is the ROCOR's absoluter duty, placed upon us
                    generations ago by St. Tikhon, to indeed communicate with the MP,
                    now that it is even possible. We must never give up in this mission,
                    as frustrating as it may sometimes be! Our leaders must LEAD, and this
                    includes engaging the powers that be of the MP (whether we like them
                    or not) in dialogue; we must pray for the Holy Spirit to
                    continue to provide guidance!



                    >... So please do not condemn me for attitudes that you imagined
                    without
                    any
                    > ground.

                    I stand humbly corrected, and sincerely apologise for ascribing to you
                    what I have witnessed in others.

                    >
                    > Anyway, I persist with Vl Mark in calling the MP stalinist, because
                    it was
                    > created by Stalin. It is not a hyperbole
                    > to call "stalinist" a thing that originates in Stalin. As such, the
                    MP
                    > cannot be part of the Church.

                    If that is so, then we must struggle to save our wayward brethren.


                    > Here, I think we should distance ourselves from Vl Mark. I cannot
                    understand
                    > that the Synod
                    > allows his declarations to the press, as they produce only
                    confusion. The
                    > Church
                    > and the bishops should be clear. It is their holy mission.
                    >

                    I would like to remind you that, in the original interview, Vl. Mark
                    was exceedingly clear in stating which ideas are his own personal
                    opinion, and that his Brethren may differ with him... he deserves
                    credit for this forthrightness and for his acknowedgement of the
                    controversial nature of some of his personal opinions!



                    > The MP has been the temple of compromission with evil and has been
                    claiming
                    > that this
                    > compromission saved the Church in the times of persecution. This
                    statement
                    > is an outrage to the martyrs,
                    > is not acceptable for a Christian and is heretical. Promoters of
                    heresy
                    > cannot be part of the Church.

                    This previous statement seems to contradict the next one; I think
                    calling someone a heretic is pretty much a condemnation:

                    >
                    > I do not condemn anybody, not even the ex KGB officers. I just
                    consider
                    > that the MP as an organisation cannot be part of the Church. Who
                    told you
                    > ever that this
                    > was a condemnation of the uninformed people that are being lead by
                    > sergianists?
                    >
                    > Again, we do not condemn anybody. We just condemn the heresy of
                    Sergianism.


                    In what Canon is "Sergianism" named a +heresy+? "Heresy: is a pretty
                    strong term, with specific ecclesiastical meaning, if I am not
                    mistaken. If the MP is heretical and graceless, why has ROCOR always
                    accepted laypeople, clergy and even Bishops who came to us from MP
                    without re-baptising them or re-doing their ordinations? I am
                    sorry to bring up all these well-worn arguments again, but I think it
                    is wrong to bandy around words like 'heresy' as if you were saying
                    "four" regarding 2+2...

                    I realise my statements here put me at the risk of sounding less
                    critical of the MP than I in fact am. I have plenty of criticism for
                    them, and I don't believe they are any where near ready for
                    'reunification' with ROCOR... but I still think it is important for
                    our leaders to be wise and visionary and to work with them toward that
                    goal. Vast Russia -- the homeland of our fore-fathers, for which much
                    of our ancestors' blood was shed -- depends on us for this!

                    I wish you all a pleasant an peaceful weekend.

                    In the ascended Christ,
                    Elizabeth



                    >
                    > -----Message d'origine-----
                    > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                    > Envoye : jeudi 13 juin 2002 17:04
                    > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                    > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                    >
                    >
                    > And now that I have posted the questions, I will offer only these
                    > responses:
                    >
                    > to QUESTION 1:
                    > There is one terrible thing in these discussions: No one is
                    answering
                    > the real questions - why call them "off-base"?
                    >
                    >
                    > I personally do not feel qualified to answer the questions. I don't
                    > think they're off base (as I mentioned before, I think people have
                    > honest curiosity and do want to know the answers). But I for one am
                    > not going to start putting words in Bishops' mouths, or, worse,
                    taking
                    > words' OUT of Bishops' mouths out of context!
                    >
                    > Regarding : "Being a member of the Russian Orthodox Church
                    > OUTSIDE RUSSIA as he states, it looks rather strange that he found
                    > the level of the curriculum in Jordanville not to his
                    > expectations."...
                    >
                    > With all due respect to Jordanville, it has had its ups and downs
                    > over the years, I am sure... and I know of a few devout
                    > (ROCOR, no less) Orthodox ivy league professors (slavic studies) who
                    > have watched the output from the seminarians over the years, and can
                    > attest that the quality from a scholarly standpoint has not been
                    > consistently fantastic over the years. But, again, that is MY
                    opinion,
                    > and only Vl. Mark would be able to give HIS.
                    >
                    > As for all the anti-MP rhetoric and bandying about of the label
                    > "Stalinism" (talk about hysterical hyperbole!), I personally cannot
                    > agree to condemn every priest, parishioner and prayerful person
                    > looking for salvation in the houses of God in Russia, even if they
                    are
                    > headed by people with questionable motives. The only way to solve
                    that
                    > issue is for ROCOR, the perpetual defender of Russian Orthodoxy, the
                    > inheritor of St. Tikhon's mantiya, the church guided by its
                    Hodigitria
                    > for all these years, to provide the example of righteousness and
                    > unity, and the only way to do THAT is to open our hearts and
                    churches
                    > to them...
                    >
                    > Sadly, thanks to various 'iskushenii', our own troubles are only
                    > weakening our once rock-solid moral ground.
                    >
                    > I will agree with the evident lack of "Christian love" ... and I
                    > respect questions, but not when the questioners think they already
                    > know they answers and don't want to be told otherwise, which seems
                    to
                    > be the case all too often.
                    >
                    > And that is all MY opinion. I wish I were more qualified to answer
                    > some of the issues, and I truly find all the hostility and division
                    > heartbreaking.
                    >
                    > Forgive me for bluntness, and for any insults, all unintended.
                    >
                    > Sincerely, in the Ascended Christ,
                    >
                    > Elizabeth
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                  • vladimir kozyreff
                    I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very knowledgeable and respected person. I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
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                      I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a very
                      knowledgeable and respected person.

                      I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                      atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his position.

                      In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad of
                      February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a four-day
                      visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21. The
                      report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-celebrated
                      with Serbian priests.

                      The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of Churches.
                      The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How can we
                      reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with the
                      Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position relative to
                      our Church's.

                      Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line of the
                      Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the Church,
                      committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches obedience
                      to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already confuse time?
                      Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not? If not,
                      why? Is this a acceptable question to put?

                      Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests from
                      Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been heard by
                      the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that they did
                      not obey.

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff
                    • joeswaydyn2000
                      Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in communion with the Serbs--
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 17, 2002
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                        Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                        here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                        communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                        communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                        clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                        claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                        something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                        with.

                        To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                        Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                        doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                        word 'disobedience' in quotes.

                        Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                        so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.

                        Joseph

                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                        very
                        > knowledgeable and respected person.
                        >
                        > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                        > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                        position.
                        >
                        > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                        Abroad of
                        > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                        four-day
                        > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                        8/21. The
                        > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                        celebrated
                        > with Serbian priests.
                        >
                        > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                        Churches.
                        > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                        can we
                        > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                        with the
                        > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                        relative to
                        > our Church's.
                        >
                        > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                        of the
                        > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                        Church,
                        > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                        obedience
                        > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                        confuse time?
                        > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                        If not,
                        > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                        >
                        > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                        priests from
                        > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                        heard by
                        > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                        they did
                        > not obey.
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        >
                        > Vladimir Kozyreff
                      • boulia_1
                        Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO intervention (i.e. act of War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of Serbia, where a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                          Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                          War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                          Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                          been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                          so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                          Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                          ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                          cathedral several years back.

                          Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                          salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                          brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                          hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                          Shanghai/S.F.).

                          To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                          people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                          closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                          desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                          "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                          perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                          cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                          clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                          In Christ's love,
                          Elizabeth

                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                          > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                          very
                          > knowledgeable and respected person.
                          >
                          > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                          > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                          position.
                          >
                          > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                          Abroad of
                          > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                          four-day
                          > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                          The
                          > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                          co-celebrated
                          > with Serbian priests.
                          >
                          > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                          Churches.
                          > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                          can we
                          > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                          the
                          > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                          relative to
                          > our Church's.
                          >
                          > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                          of the
                          > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                          Church,
                          > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                          obedience
                          > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                          confuse time?
                          > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                          If not,
                          > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                          >
                          > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                          from
                          > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                          heard by
                          > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                          they did
                          > not obey.
                          >
                          > In Christ,
                          >
                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        • Kiril Bart
                          Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent person from holding and using firearms, or any other weapons. Try to be more realistic. Subdeacon Kirill P.S.
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                            Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                            person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                            weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                            Subdeacon Kirill
                            P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                            crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                            --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                            > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                            > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                            > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                            > Orthodox people of
                            > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                            > terrorist Albanians has
                            > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                            > their Serb victims,
                            > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                            > cross themselves!
                            >
                            > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                            > similarly and just as
                            > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                            > serve in the SF
                            > cathedral several years back.
                            >
                            > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                            > the important and
                            > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                            > protecting their Orthodox
                            > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                            > most esteemed
                            > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                            > John of
                            > Shanghai/S.F.).
                            >
                            > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                            > the most pious of
                            > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                            > and among the
                            > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                            > understand this
                            > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                            > fault.
                            >
                            > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                            > brother's eye, but
                            > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                            > Thou hypocrite,
                            > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                            > then shalt thou see
                            > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                            > brother's eye."
                            >
                            > In Christ's love,
                            > Elizabeth
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                            > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                            > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                            > Mark describe a
                            > very
                            > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                            > >
                            > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                            > insist that he looks
                            > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                            > about his
                            > position.
                            > >
                            > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                            > Orthodox Church
                            > Abroad of
                            > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                            > Serbia " describes a
                            > four-day
                            > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                            > till February, 8/21.
                            > The
                            > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                            > in which he
                            > co-celebrated
                            > > with Serbian priests.
                            > >
                            > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                            > World Council of
                            > Churches.
                            > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                            > church in1983. How
                            > can we
                            > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                            > Mark's communion with
                            > the
                            > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                            > Mark's position
                            > relative to
                            > > our Church's.
                            > >
                            > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                            > following the line
                            > of the
                            > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                            > disobedience to the
                            > Church,
                            > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                            > incidently teaches
                            > obedience
                            > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                            > of an already
                            > confuse time?
                            > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                            > movement? Or not?
                            > If not,
                            > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                            > >
                            > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                            > meantime, 12 priests
                            > from
                            > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                            > without having been
                            > heard by
                            > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                            > believers, except that
                            > they did
                            > > not obey.
                            > >
                            > > In Christ,
                            > >
                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            __________________________________________________
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                          • Ledkovsky, Nina
                            Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim s way of spitting at the Orthodox. It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well... -Nina Ledkovsky ...
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                              Hello! This is true. This is the Muslim's way of spitting at the Orthodox.
                              It has been done to Russian soldiers in Chechnya as well...
                              -Nina Ledkovsky

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:11 PM
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                              Those fingers usually are choppted off to prevent
                              person from holding and using firearms, or any other
                              weapons. Try to be more realistic.
                              Subdeacon Kirill
                              P.S. In Greece if they want to prevent someone from
                              crossing himself, they chopped of the whole hand.

                              --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                              > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO
                              > "intervention" (i.e. act of
                              > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering
                              > Orthodox people of
                              > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic)
                              > terrorist Albanians has
                              > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of
                              > their Serb victims,
                              > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to
                              > cross themselves!
                              >
                              > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was
                              > similarly and just as
                              > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to
                              > serve in the SF
                              > cathedral several years back.
                              >
                              > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo,
                              > the important and
                              > salvationary role the Serb church played in
                              > protecting their Orthodox
                              > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our
                              > most esteemed
                              > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St.
                              > John of
                              > Shanghai/S.F.).
                              >
                              > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be
                              > the most pious of
                              > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren
                              > and among the
                              > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot
                              > understand this
                              > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find
                              > fault.
                              >
                              > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy
                              > brother's eye, but
                              > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?...
                              > Thou hypocrite,
                              > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and
                              > then shalt thou see
                              > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy
                              > brother's eye."
                              >
                              > In Christ's love,
                              > Elizabeth
                              >
                              > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                              > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                              > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl
                              > Mark describe a
                              > very
                              > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                              > >
                              > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I
                              > insist that he looks
                              > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction
                              > about his
                              > position.
                              > >
                              > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian
                              > Orthodox Church
                              > Abroad of
                              > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to
                              > Serbia " describes a
                              > four-day
                              > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17
                              > till February, 8/21.
                              > The
                              > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries
                              > in which he
                              > co-celebrated
                              > > with Serbian priests.
                              > >
                              > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the
                              > World Council of
                              > Churches.
                              > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our
                              > church in1983. How
                              > can we
                              > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl
                              > Mark's communion with
                              > the
                              > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl
                              > Mark's position
                              > relative to
                              > > our Church's.
                              > >
                              > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach
                              > following the line
                              > of the
                              > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear
                              > disobedience to the
                              > Church,
                              > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that
                              > incidently teaches
                              > obedience
                              > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion
                              > of an already
                              > confuse time?
                              > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised
                              > movement? Or not?
                              > If not,
                              > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                              > >
                              > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the
                              > meantime, 12 priests
                              > from
                              > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying",
                              > without having been
                              > heard by
                              > > the Synod and without any explanation to the
                              > believers, except that
                              > they did
                              > > not obey.
                              > >
                              > > In Christ,
                              > >
                              > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                              >
                              >
                              >


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                            • vladimir kozyreff
                              Dear Elisabeth, I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                                Dear Elisabeth,

                                I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion to
                                people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this case),
                                makes you turn a
                                blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you are right,
                                because
                                you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam and the
                                splinter).
                                However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion) before
                                your "dukhovnost'"
                                (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen outside the
                                limits of the
                                Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute respect for
                                His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth. Failure
                                to
                                respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and ecumenism.
                                As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In Judaism, people
                                do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism originated in an
                                adulteration of the creed,
                                which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers are the
                                last faithful.
                                The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most sacred duty
                                is to preserve it.
                                This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on us.

                                Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world. The world
                                is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold the
                                truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus the
                                natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes differently
                                from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of respect.
                                Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.

                                As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of the
                                Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our brothers does
                                not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of offending
                                them, on the contrary:

                                1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because they are
                                particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because they have
                                endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish, since
                                the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know that
                                the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help them to
                                overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must show
                                understanding,
                                nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                                This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from the
                                devil
                                that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but saving them.
                                3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is not an
                                aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary, in
                                denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is like a
                                physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured if those
                                beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the heresy
                                in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but one of
                                humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our Church
                                is right
                                and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and we
                                believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught by our
                                Church.
                                5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be helped out
                                too.
                                If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                                in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the heresy
                                in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have communion with
                                heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is the
                                person we love most, more than any human.

                                In Christ's love,
                                Vladimir Kozyreff
                                -----Message d'origine-----
                                De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@...]
                                Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark


                                Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                                Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                                been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                                so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                                Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                cathedral several years back.

                                Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                                brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                Shanghai/S.F.).

                                To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                                people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                                "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                                perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                                clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                                In Christ's love,
                                Elizabeth

                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                very
                                > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                >
                                > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                position.
                                >
                                > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                Abroad of
                                > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                four-day
                                > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                                The
                                > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                co-celebrated
                                > with Serbian priests.
                                >
                                > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                Churches.
                                > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                can we
                                > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                                the
                                > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                relative to
                                > our Church's.
                                >
                                > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                of the
                                > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                Church,
                                > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                obedience
                                > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                confuse time?
                                > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                If not,
                                > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                >
                                > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                                from
                                > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                heard by
                                > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                they did
                                > not obey.
                                >
                                > In Christ,
                                >
                                > Vladimir Kozyreff




                                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



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                              • Hristofor
                                To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued a we are no longer in communion with Serbia ukase (If someone knows to the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                                  To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                  a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                  the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                  were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                  Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                  with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                  Hristofor

                                  At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                  >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                  >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                  >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                  >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                  >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                  >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                  >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                  >with.
                                  >
                                  >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                  >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                  >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                  >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                  >
                                  >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                  >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                  >
                                  >Joseph
                                  >
                                  >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                  ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                  > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                  >very
                                  > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                  > >
                                  > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                  > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                  >position.
                                  > >
                                  > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                  >Abroad of
                                  > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                  >four-day
                                  > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                  >8/21. The
                                  > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                  >celebrated
                                  > > with Serbian priests.
                                  > >
                                  > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                  >Churches.
                                  > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                  >can we
                                  > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                  >with the
                                  > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                  >relative to
                                  > > our Church's.
                                  > >
                                  > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                  >of the
                                  > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                  >Church,
                                  > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                  >obedience
                                  > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                  >confuse time?
                                  > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                  >If not,
                                  > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                  > >
                                  > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                  >priests from
                                  > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                  >heard by
                                  > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                  >they did
                                  > > not obey.
                                  > >
                                  > > In Christ,
                                  > >
                                  > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Michael Nikitin
                                  The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued. All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it. MN From: Hristofor Reply-To:
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                                    The Anathema Against Ecumenism was the ukaze issued.
                                    All the Bishops of ROCOR sighned it.

                                    MN

                                    From: Hristofor <hristofor@...>
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                                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
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                                    To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                    a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                    the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                    were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                    Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                    with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                    Hristofor

                                    At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                    >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                    >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                    >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                    >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                    >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                    >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                    >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                    >with.
                                    >
                                    >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                    >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                    >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                    >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                    >
                                    >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                    >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                    >
                                    >Joseph
                                    >
                                    >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                    ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                    > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                    >very
                                    > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                    > >
                                    > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                    > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                    >position.
                                    > >
                                    > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                    >Abroad of
                                    > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                    >four-day
                                    > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                    >8/21. The
                                    > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                    >celebrated
                                    > > with Serbian priests.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                    >Churches.
                                    > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                    >can we
                                    > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                    >with the
                                    > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                    >relative to
                                    > > our Church's.
                                    > >
                                    > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                    >of the
                                    > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                    >Church,
                                    > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                    >obedience
                                    > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                    >confuse time?
                                    > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                    >If not,
                                    > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                    > >
                                    > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                    >priests from
                                    > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                    >heard by
                                    > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                    >they did
                                    > > not obey.
                                    > >
                                    > > In Christ,
                                    > >
                                    > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    >
                                    >

                                    _________________________________________________________________
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                                  • Michael Nikitin
                                    It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 18, 2002
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                                      It has nothing to do with being isolationalists. There would be no problem
                                      if the Serbian Church would get out of the heretical organization WCC. It is
                                      the Serbian Church that does not want to be in communion with it's brethren
                                      by being involved with the heretical organization WCC.
                                      Fr.Justin Popovich a much revered Father of the Serbian Church called the
                                      WCC a prostitute.
                                      No one cares that the Church is in the heretical organization?

                                      MN


                                      From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
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                                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                      Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:03:10 -0000
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                                      Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                      War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people of
                                      Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians has
                                      been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb victims,
                                      so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!

                                      Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                      ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                      cathedral several years back.

                                      Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                      salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their Orthodox
                                      brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                      hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                      Shanghai/S.F.).

                                      To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious of
                                      people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                      closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                      desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.

                                      "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye, but
                                      perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                      cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see
                                      clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."

                                      In Christ's love,
                                      Elizabeth

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                      <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                      > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                      very
                                      > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                      >
                                      > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                      > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                      position.
                                      >
                                      > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                      Abroad of
                                      > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                      four-day
                                      > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February, 8/21.
                                      The
                                      > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                      co-celebrated
                                      > with Serbian priests.
                                      >
                                      > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                      Churches.
                                      > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                      can we
                                      > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion with
                                      the
                                      > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                      relative to
                                      > our Church's.
                                      >
                                      > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                      of the
                                      > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                      Church,
                                      > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                      obedience
                                      > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                      confuse time?
                                      > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                      If not,
                                      > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                      >
                                      > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12 priests
                                      from
                                      > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                      heard by
                                      > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                      they did
                                      > not obey.
                                      >
                                      > In Christ,
                                      >
                                      > Vladimir Kozyreff



                                      _________________________________________________________________
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                                    • goossir
                                      This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is worthwhile reading.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                        This is an article written in 1998 which is foretelling the drama our
                                        church is going through at the present time. I humbly think it is
                                        worthwhile reading.

                                        Yours in Christ
                                        Irina


                                        News Release


                                        Divisions within Orthodox church abroad

                                        CHURCH ABROAD ON BRINK OF SCHISM

                                        by Alexander Soldatov
                                        Nezavisimaia gazeta--religiia


                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----------

                                        15 April 1998

                                        Attempts at dialogue with Moscow patriarchate provoke sharp criticism

                                        The past year has brought many trials to the Russian Orthodox Church
                                        Abroad (RPTsZ), headed by the 88-year-old primate Metropolitan Vitaly
                                        Ustinov. RPTsZ lost the Holy Trinity monastery in Hebron, which was
                                        turned over by the Palestinian authority to the Russian Orthodox
                                        church of the Moscow Patriarch (RPTs MP), and the Saint Nicholas
                                        cathedral church in Montreal, in all likelihood torched by unknown
                                        antagonists. Archprist Alexander Zharkov, a prominent RPTsZ priest in
                                        St. Petersburg, and Iosif Munoz Cortes, the curator of the greatest
                                        shrine of the Russian emigration, the Iverian Myrrh-streaming icon of
                                        the Mother of God, perished at the hands of bandits. The icon itself
                                        disappeared and its location is unknown. This spring, by decision of
                                        Metropolitan Vitaly, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany was
                                        expelled from the bishops' synod of RPTsZ. [Archbishop Mark's
                                        response]

                                        It is not surprising that these sad events, viewed by many in RPTsZ
                                        as the "end of the world," became the catalyst for processes of
                                        internal division among the clergy and flock of the Russian
                                        emigration on the question of mutual relations with RPTsMP. It may be
                                        strange, but the part of RPTsZ that was most politicized in the past
                                        has become the most active advocates of rapprochement and even
                                        unification with the Mother church after the fall of USSR and the
                                        democratic reforms in Russia. The aging priests in Europe and America
                                        and parishioners from among the first and part of the second "wave"
                                        of emigration are hoping to live to see the "desired unification." We
                                        recall that the distinguished arch-presbyter Alexander Kiselev, a
                                        pastor who is extremely authoritative and popular within RPTsZ and
                                        the long-time clergyman of the synodal cathedral in New York, has
                                        moved toward an open rupture with Metropolitan Vitaly because of his
                                        burning love for the motherland and for Patriarch Alexis II
                                        personally.

                                        By way of contrast, the new generation, especially the so-called
                                        converts (Protestants and Catholics who have transferred into
                                        Orthodoxy) speak about the dogmatic and canonical differences between
                                        RPTsZ and RPTsMP that prevent unification. But every rule is
                                        extremely approximate and reflects reality only relatively. An open
                                        protagonist of the process of reconciliation with the Mother church
                                        in RPTsZ is the sometime "convert," an ethnic German who converted to
                                        Orthodoxy, Archbishop Mark Arndt of Berlin and Germany. In his time
                                        Archbishop Mark, an activist in the National Labor Union, was
                                        extremely radical in his negative attitude toward USSR and
                                        the "soviet church."

                                        Judging by the tendency of the publications of the "Vestnik of the
                                        German Diocese," edited by Master Mark, his attitude began to change
                                        in 1993. It is obvious that the archbishop suffered profoundly for
                                        the failures of RPTsZ in Russia, the alliance of the synodal
                                        representative Bishop Varnava with Vasilev's "Pamiat" organization,
                                        and conflicts among bishops. These experiences forced him to turn his
                                        face toward RPTsMP.

                                        Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                                        ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                                        RPTsZ and RPTsMP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                                        (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                                        basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                                        declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                                        the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                                        division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                                        abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                                        circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                                        diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared."

                                        It is clear that the authors of the declaration are simplifying the
                                        historical facts extremely: the line of the church division by no
                                        means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                                        declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                                        sacraments. However in practice such a recognition is absent.
                                        Existing precedents of a transfer into RPTsMP of clergy from RPTsZ in
                                        Russia (e.g., Oleg Steniaev and Dimitry Goltsev), when they were
                                        reordained to the clerical rank (in the case of Steniaev the
                                        ordination was performed by the patriarch himself), testify to the
                                        nonrecognition of the sacraments of RPTsZ. On the other hand,
                                        Metropolitan Vitaly in his letter to Archbishop Mark in December 1996
                                        directly declared that the time had come for a declaration to the
                                        world of the "lack of grace in the Moscow patriarchate." It is
                                        natural that the publication of this document evoked a storm of
                                        responses within RPTsZ and beyond its boundaries. Already in December
                                        1996, when Archbishop Mark met Patriarch Alexis II in Moscow, the
                                        most radical opponents of the activity of the German bishop accused
                                        him of rapprochement with "Sergians." This included in first place
                                        Metropolitan Vitaly himself, who sent to Archbishop Mark an extremely
                                        sharp indictment in which he declared that he had fallen into
                                        spiritual illness. Archbishop Mark also was indirectly condemned by
                                        clergy of the West European diocese, who distributed an open letter
                                        against reconciliation with RPTsMP, over the signatures of Bishop
                                        Varnava Rokofev of Cannes and 14 priests. No less sharp was the
                                        reaction in Russia at the time. Russian parishes of RPTsZ which had
                                        just broken with the patriarchate had no desire to admit to
                                        error. "We are for unification," wrote, in particular, the Russian
                                        members of the brotherhood of Saint Iov of Pochaev, "but not at any
                                        price. No price is worth betrayal and contempt for truth." Fr Stefan
                                        Krasovitsky, head of the RPTsZ mission in Russia, even sundered
                                        prayer fellowship with Archbishop Mark, considering him "in no way
                                        better that a Sergian." Archbishop Mark's enthusiastic impressions of
                                        Chisty Lane evoked a certain amazement even among the conservative
                                        circles of RPTsMP.

                                        As at that time, so in the present case of the publication of the
                                        joint declaration Metropolitan Vitaly was the first to respond. In
                                        his letter of 6 February of this year he reminded Archbishop Mark
                                        that no one had given him authority "to conduct these conversations."
                                        The patient primate decided to resort to punishment: he expelled
                                        Archbishop Mark from the bishop's synod of RPTsZ.

                                        Archbishop Mark wrote a rather sharp retort, addressed to all bishops
                                        of RPTsZ, in which he accused the metropolitan of inability to
                                        administer the church and, in essence, called for his removal. The
                                        only bishops, besides the metropolitan, who decided to speak openly
                                        against Archbishop Mark, who has acquired influence within RPTsZ, was
                                        the young bishop of Seattle, Kirill, vicar of the North American
                                        diocese, whose voice earlier had not been very much noticed. He
                                        delivered a devastating assessment of the joint declaration: "I am
                                        profoundly convinced that this declaration is an irresponsible
                                        collection of demagogic sentences that do not contain a single
                                        healthy idea which would lead to the resolution of the numerous
                                        ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox church at the end of
                                        the twentieth century."

                                        And so, the circle of opponents of Archbishop Mark's line in RPTsZ
                                        has been approximately set. There is Metropolitan Vitaly, vicar
                                        bishops Varnava and Kirill, the conservative clergy of West European
                                        diocese, practically all the Russian clergy of RPTsZ and "converts"
                                        (mostly Americans). Among the supporters of master Mark no one
                                        actively has declared himself so it is possible to draw conclusions
                                        only by indirect indicators. Obviously, that number includes several
                                        influential synodal bishops, whose support gives the German bishop
                                        confidence, the aging liberal Russian clergy (mostly in America and
                                        Australia) and, of course, clergy of the German diocese. Between
                                        these relative camps a fault line has formed, threatening in the near
                                        future to reveal to the world new branches of Russian Orthodoxy.
                                        Several observers from among clergy and laity of RPTsZ in Russia
                                        confirm that at this council the question of Metropolitan Vitaly's
                                        retirement will serve as a cutting edge. If that is so, then they
                                        must be correct who affirm that the extraordinary effort for
                                        overcoming the schism, in accordance with the law of the dialectic,
                                        will inevitably result in a new schism.

                                        (tr. by P D Steeves, Stetson University)
                                        http://www.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews


                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----------

                                        Previous Article | Next Article
                                      • vladimir kozyreff
                                        http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm October 15/ 28, 1986 The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had become the leader of 300
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                          http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm

                                          October 15/ 28, 1986
                                          The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich, had
                                          become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president of the
                                          World Council of Churches.
                                          under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory,
                                          was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our Synodal
                                          bishops.
                                          The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                          ecumenism in word and deed..
                                          .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under our
                                          Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                          Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal truth
                                          remains constant and unchanging.
                                          If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because we share
                                          the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that we point
                                          out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                          The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to condone their
                                          violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                          Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never condoned
                                          doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution, cannot
                                          determine what the Church teaches.

                                          In God

                                          Vladimir Kozyreff

                                          -----Message d'origine-----
                                          De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                          Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                          A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                          Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                          To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                          a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                          the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                          were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                          Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                          with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                          Hristofor

                                          At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                          >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                          >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                          >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                          >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                          >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                          >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                          >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                          >with.
                                          >
                                          >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                          >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                          >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                          >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                          >
                                          >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                          >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                          >
                                          >Joseph
                                          >
                                          >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                          ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                          > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                          >very
                                          > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                          > >
                                          > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                          > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                          >position.
                                          > >
                                          > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                          >Abroad of
                                          > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                          >four-day
                                          > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                          >8/21. The
                                          > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                          >celebrated
                                          > > with Serbian priests.
                                          > >
                                          > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                          >Churches.
                                          > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                          >can we
                                          > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                          >with the
                                          > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                          >relative to
                                          > > our Church's.
                                          > >
                                          > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                          >of the
                                          > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                          >Church,
                                          > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                          >obedience
                                          > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                          >confuse time?
                                          > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                          >If not,
                                          > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                          > >
                                          > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                          >priests from
                                          > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                          >heard by
                                          > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                          >they did
                                          > > not obey.
                                          > >
                                          > > In Christ,
                                          > >
                                          > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • vladimir kozyreff
                                          Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                            Regarding ecumenism and joint prayers with heretics

                                            Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles

                                            "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with
                                            heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service
                                            as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

                                            Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:

                                            "If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to
                                            pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

                                            Canon IX of Laodicia (Also approved by the Ecumenical Synods)

                                            "Concerning the fact that those belonging to the Church must not be allowed
                                            to go visiting the cemeteries or the so called martyria of any heretics, for
                                            the purpose of prayer or of cure, but, on the contrary, those who do so, if
                                            they be among the faithful, shall be excluded from communion for a time
                                            until they repent and confess their having made a mistake, when they may be
                                            readmitted to communion."

                                            Canon XXXIII of Laodicia

                                            "One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

                                            In God,

                                            Vladimir Kozyreff


                                            -----Message d'origine-----
                                            De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@...]
                                            Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                            A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church


                                            To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever formally issued
                                            a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone knows to
                                            the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist takeover, we
                                            were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy under
                                            Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no definitive break
                                            with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.

                                            Hristofor

                                            At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                            >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                            >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                            >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                            >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                            >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                            >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration was
                                            >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                            >with.
                                            >
                                            >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                            >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                            >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                            >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                            >
                                            >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                            >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                            >
                                            >Joseph
                                            >
                                            >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                            ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                            > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                            >very
                                            > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                            > >
                                            > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he looks
                                            > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                            >position.
                                            > >
                                            > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                            >Abroad of
                                            > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes a
                                            >four-day
                                            > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                            >8/21. The
                                            > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he co-
                                            >celebrated
                                            > > with Serbian priests.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                            >Churches.
                                            > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983. How
                                            >can we
                                            > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                            >with the
                                            > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                            >relative to
                                            > > our Church's.
                                            > >
                                            > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the line
                                            >of the
                                            > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                            >Church,
                                            > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                            >obedience
                                            > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                            >confuse time?
                                            > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                            >If not,
                                            > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                            > >
                                            > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                            >priests from
                                            > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having been
                                            >heard by
                                            > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except that
                                            >they did
                                            > > not obey.
                                            > >
                                            > > In Christ,
                                            > >
                                            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                            Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          • boulia_1
                                            Dear Vladimir and Irina, With all due respect, I d prefer to err on the side of dushevnost then! Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 19, 2002
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                                              Dear Vladimir and Irina,

                                              With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                              then!

                                              Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                              Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                              according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face of
                                              all his errors, and indeed, he received it.

                                              Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                              God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                              Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.

                                              As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against Vladyka
                                              Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                              regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                              punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                              because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                              and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                              because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                              Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly often
                                              seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or total
                                              carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                              would not have this mess today.

                                              Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who are
                                              the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                              was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                              deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used to
                                              give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                              they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                              his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                              right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                              around now...


                                              I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                              sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.

                                              In Christ's love,
                                              Elizabeth

                                              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                              <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                              > Dear Elisabeth,
                                              >
                                              > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your compassion
                                              to
                                              > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                              case),
                                              > makes you turn a
                                              > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                              are right,
                                              > because
                                              > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the beam
                                              and the
                                              > splinter).
                                              > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human compassion)
                                              before
                                              > your "dukhovnost'"
                                              > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                              > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                              > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                              outside the
                                              > limits of the
                                              > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                              respect for
                                              > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his Truth.
                                              Failure
                                              > to
                                              > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                              ecumenism.
                                              > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                              > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                              Judaism, people
                                              > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                              originated in an
                                              > adulteration of the creed,
                                              > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                              are the
                                              > last faithful.
                                              > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                              sacred duty
                                              > is to preserve it.
                                              > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                              us.
                                              >
                                              > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the world.
                                              The world
                                              > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you hold
                                              the
                                              > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is thus
                                              the
                                              > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                              differently
                                              > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign of
                                              respect.
                                              > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                              >
                                              > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position of
                                              the
                                              > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                              brothers does
                                              > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                              offending
                                              > them, on the contrary:
                                              >
                                              > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                              they are
                                              > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                              they have
                                              > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our parish,
                                              since
                                              > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we know
                                              that
                                              > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                              > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                              them to
                                              > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                              > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we must
                                              show
                                              > understanding,
                                              > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners ourselves.
                                              > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison from
                                              the
                                              > devil
                                              > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                              saving them.
                                              > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                              not an
                                              > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the contrary,
                                              in
                                              > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church is
                                              like a
                                              > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be cured
                                              if those
                                              > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                              > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                              heresy
                                              > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride but
                                              one of
                                              > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that our
                                              Church
                                              > is right
                                              > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy, and
                                              we
                                              > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been taught
                                              by our
                                              > Church.
                                              > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will be
                                              helped out
                                              > too.
                                              > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and sisters
                                              > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                              heresy
                                              > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                              > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                              communion with
                                              > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who is
                                              the
                                              > person we love most, more than any human.
                                              >
                                              > In Christ's love,
                                              > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                              > -----Message d'origine-----
                                              > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                              > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                              > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                              > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act of
                                              > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox people
                                              of
                                              > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                              has
                                              > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                              victims,
                                              > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                              >
                                              > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just as
                                              > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the SF
                                              > cathedral several years back.
                                              >
                                              > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important and
                                              > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                              Orthodox
                                              > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                              > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                              > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                              >
                                              > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most pious
                                              of
                                              > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                              > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                              > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                              >
                                              > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's eye,
                                              but
                                              > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou hypocrite,
                                              > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                              see
                                              > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                              >
                                              > In Christ's love,
                                              > Elizabeth
                                              >
                                              > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                              > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                              > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark describe a
                                              > very
                                              > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                              > >
                                              > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                              looks
                                              > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                              > position.
                                              > >
                                              > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox Church
                                              > Abroad of
                                              > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia " describes
                                              a
                                              > four-day
                                              > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                              8/21.
                                              > The
                                              > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                              > co-celebrated
                                              > > with Serbian priests.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                              > Churches.
                                              > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                              How
                                              > can we
                                              > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                              with
                                              > the
                                              > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                              > relative to
                                              > > our Church's.
                                              > >
                                              > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                              line
                                              > of the
                                              > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                              > Church,
                                              > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                              > obedience
                                              > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                              > confuse time?
                                              > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or not?
                                              > If not,
                                              > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                              > >
                                              > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                              priests
                                              > from
                                              > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                              been
                                              > heard by
                                              > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                              that
                                              > they did
                                              > > not obey.
                                              > >
                                              > > In Christ,
                                              > >
                                              > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            • vkozyreff
                                              Dear Elisabeth, Regarding the temptation to prefer one s brothers and sisters to God, here is what Christ told us: Anyone who loves his father or mother more
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 20, 2002
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                                                Dear Elisabeth,

                                                Regarding the temptation to prefer one's brothers and sisters to God,
                                                here is what Christ told us:

                                                "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of
                                                me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy
                                                of me; (Matthew 10:36-38).

                                                There can be no choice between loving God and loving one's neighbour,
                                                since no love to God can exist without love to the neighbour.

                                                There is a constant confusion between accusing the neighbour of
                                                committing a sin, which is not what we should do, and recognising
                                                that his action is bad, which is what we should do. If you see me
                                                commiting a crime, you must proclaim that you disapprove what I did
                                                and that what I committed is a crime. Doing this is not sinning by
                                                pride and is not claiming a reward for not committing the crime that
                                                I comitted.

                                                Stating that the Sergianists are wrong is not committing a sin of
                                                pride either. Will you accuse the Synod of committing a sin in
                                                denouncing their betrayal of God? This has nothing to do with the
                                                parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee.

                                                The Pharisees have crucified Christ, as have the Sergianists. We hold
                                                that separating oneself from God and His martyrs, as the Sergianists
                                                did, is wrong. We may not have communion with those who crucified the
                                                martyrs and still claim that it was right to do so. Refusing this
                                                communion is not being a Pharisee but being a humble servant of God
                                                and doing what he has commanded us to do.

                                                In God,

                                                Vladimir Kozyreff





                                                -- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                                > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                                >
                                                > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                                > then!
                                                >
                                                > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                                > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                                > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                                of
                                                > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                                >
                                                > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                                > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                                > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                                >
                                                > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                                Vladyka
                                                > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                                > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                                > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                                > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                                > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                                > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                                > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                                often
                                                > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                                total
                                                > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                                > would not have this mess today.
                                                >
                                                > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                                are
                                                > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                                > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                                > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                                to
                                                > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                                > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                                > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                                > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                                > around now...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                                > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                                >
                                                > In Christ's love,
                                                > Elizabeth
                                                >
                                                > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                                > >
                                                > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                                compassion
                                                > to
                                                > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                                > case),
                                                > > makes you turn a
                                                > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                                > are right,
                                                > > because
                                                > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                                beam
                                                > and the
                                                > > splinter).
                                                > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                                compassion)
                                                > before
                                                > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                                > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                                > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                                > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                                > outside the
                                                > > limits of the
                                                > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                                > respect for
                                                > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                                Truth.
                                                > Failure
                                                > > to
                                                > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                                > ecumenism.
                                                > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                                > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                                > Judaism, people
                                                > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                                > originated in an
                                                > > adulteration of the creed,
                                                > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                                > are the
                                                > > last faithful.
                                                > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                                > sacred duty
                                                > > is to preserve it.
                                                > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                                > us.
                                                > >
                                                > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                                world.
                                                > The world
                                                > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                                hold
                                                > the
                                                > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                                thus
                                                > the
                                                > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                                > differently
                                                > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                                of
                                                > respect.
                                                > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                                > >
                                                > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                                of
                                                > the
                                                > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                                > brothers does
                                                > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                                > offending
                                                > > them, on the contrary:
                                                > >
                                                > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                                > they are
                                                > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                                > they have
                                                > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                                parish,
                                                > since
                                                > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                                know
                                                > that
                                                > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                                > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                                > them to
                                                > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                                > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                                must
                                                > show
                                                > > understanding,
                                                > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                                ourselves.
                                                > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                                from
                                                > the
                                                > > devil
                                                > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                                > saving them.
                                                > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                                > not an
                                                > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                                contrary,
                                                > in
                                                > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                                is
                                                > like a
                                                > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                                cured
                                                > if those
                                                > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                                > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                                > heresy
                                                > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                                but
                                                > one of
                                                > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                                our
                                                > Church
                                                > > is right
                                                > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                                and
                                                > we
                                                > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                                taught
                                                > by our
                                                > > Church.
                                                > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                                be
                                                > helped out
                                                > > too.
                                                > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                                sisters
                                                > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                                > heresy
                                                > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                                > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                                > communion with
                                                > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                                is
                                                > the
                                                > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                                > >
                                                > > In Christ's love,
                                                > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                                > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                                > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                                of
                                                > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                                people
                                                > of
                                                > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                                > has
                                                > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                                > victims,
                                                > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                                > >
                                                > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                                as
                                                > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                                SF
                                                > > cathedral several years back.
                                                > >
                                                > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                                and
                                                > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                                > Orthodox
                                                > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                                > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                                > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                                > >
                                                > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                                pious
                                                > of
                                                > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                                > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                                > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                                > >
                                                > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                                eye,
                                                > but
                                                > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                                hypocrite,
                                                > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                                > see
                                                > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                                > >
                                                > > In Christ's love,
                                                > > Elizabeth
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                describe a
                                                > > very
                                                > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                > looks
                                                > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                > > position.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                Church
                                                > > Abroad of
                                                > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                describes
                                                > a
                                                > > four-day
                                                > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                > 8/21.
                                                > > The
                                                > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                > > co-celebrated
                                                > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                > > Churches.
                                                > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                > How
                                                > > can we
                                                > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                > with
                                                > > the
                                                > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                > > relative to
                                                > > > our Church's.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                > line
                                                > > of the
                                                > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                > > Church,
                                                > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                > > obedience
                                                > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                > > confuse time?
                                                > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                not?
                                                > > If not,
                                                > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                > priests
                                                > > from
                                                > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                > been
                                                > > heard by
                                                > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                > that
                                                > > they did
                                                > > > not obey.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In Christ,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              • vkozyreff
                                                Dear Irina, dear List, We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, : Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been ongoing
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                                  Dear Irina, dear List,

                                                  We read in the article below about Vl Mark that, :

                                                  "Since 1994, on the initiative of Archbishop Mark, there have been
                                                  ongoing conversations between the clergy of the German dioceses of
                                                  ROCOR and MP. The bishops themselves led these conversations
                                                  (from the patriarchal side was Archbishop Feofan). This has given a
                                                  basis for making a preliminary summary in an official joint
                                                  declaration, published in the middle of December 1997. The theme of
                                                  the declaration was the relativity and historical conditioning of the
                                                  division existing in the one Russian church: "People in Russia and
                                                  abroad have conducted their church service in completely different
                                                  circumstances and have assessed the situation differently. Hence
                                                  diverse paths of the Russian church have appeared. It is clear that
                                                  the authors of the declaration are simplifying the historical facts
                                                  extremely: the line of the church division by no
                                                  means follows state boundaries. Participants in the conversations
                                                  declared their full recognition of the validity of one another's
                                                  sacraments."

                                                  Vl Mark held those talks and made that declaration without the
                                                  blessing of the Metropolitan, I think. I do not think the last
                                                  statement reflects our Church's position. Please correct me if I am
                                                  wrong.

                                                  As we all remember, and as can be found in our Church new webwsite,
                                                  however, Vl Gabriel wrote the following about Igumen Joachim had
                                                  unapproved contacts with the MP and was subsequently excluded from
                                                  our Church. How do we reconcile these events?

                                                  "… Fr. Joachim made several trips to Russia, meeting with
                                                  Metropolitan Kirill, the chairman of the M.P.'s Department of
                                                  External Church Affairs, and later with the Patriarch himself. When
                                                  Fr. Joachim states that he received a blessing to travel to Russia,
                                                  this also does not correspond to the truth. …

                                                  Fr. Joachim also mentions that he made a second trip, having received
                                                  an invitation from Metropolitan Kirill. He knew that he would not
                                                  have received a blessing for such a trip. Thus, referring to an
                                                  authority which no one had ever given him, Fr. Joachim again
                                                  travelled for an official meeting with representatives of the M.P.

                                                  The main reason for Fr. Joachim's suspension were the trips and
                                                  meetings he made without hierarchical blessing.

                                                  Before Fr. Joachim left, I asked him whether he truly believed that
                                                  now was the time to unite with all the local Orthodox Churches, when
                                                  the majority of them continue to depart from the Truth and from
                                                  traditional Orthodoxy. In reply to this, he said that we need to be
                                                  in communion with everyone."

                                                  In God,

                                                  Vladimir Kozyreff

                                                  http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:Y4-
                                                  u4FBRtkQC:www.synod.com/letters/2001-10-20-reply-of-b-gabriel-to-fr-
                                                  joachim.html+joachim+parr+russian+orthodox&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
                                                • vkozyreff
                                                  Dear List, Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                                    Dear List,

                                                    Elisabeth mentions the story of the Publican and the Pharisee.

                                                    "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked
                                                    down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up
                                                    to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
                                                    11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1] himself: 'God, I thank
                                                    you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or
                                                    even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth
                                                    of all I get.'
                                                    13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look
                                                    up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a
                                                    sinner.'
                                                    14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home
                                                    justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be
                                                    humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

                                                    I do not think the parable applies here. We are not proud not to be
                                                    like the Sergianists. We do not expect any reward. We just look for
                                                    God. Is He with those who betrayed Christ or with those who gave
                                                    their life for Him? We are humbly obeying the Church. The Sergianists
                                                    do not believe in Christ, since they believe and claim that His
                                                    Church needed the intervention of Satan (lies, heresy) to be saved.

                                                    Moreover, they expelled from their "Church" those who gave their
                                                    lives for Christ's Truth. The parable does not give us as an example
                                                    to follow a Publican who gives to the executioner those who
                                                    acknowledge Christ before men, neither a Publican who claims this is
                                                    the right thing to do. What saves man is his faith in Christ.

                                                    Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
                                                    (Luke 7:49-51)

                                                    The choice is not between the MP and us. We are not part of the
                                                    equation. The choice is between the two ways Russians faced the
                                                    communist persecutions.
                                                    - the Sergianists who betrayed Christ by claiming He needed a hand
                                                    from the devil to rescue his Church and
                                                    - those who acknowledged Christ in front of men and gave their life
                                                    for Christ. That is the millions of martyrs that the Sergianists have
                                                    insulted as "counterrevolutionaries" and who indeed have saved the
                                                    Church by their faith in Christ.

                                                    This being said, we must remember that nobody is obligated to be a
                                                    martyr and that anything can be obtained from anybody by torture. So
                                                    I do not condemn those who were not strong enough to resist (I,
                                                    sinner, would not have resisted), but we may say the stand taken by
                                                    Vl Sergii was wrong, even if obtained by torture.

                                                    Let me plead for Ms Roznianskaya. She is not infamous. She certainly
                                                    did commit mistakes, of which we all suffered. We will be judged as
                                                    we judge. I know I will need mercy on the day of the last judgement,
                                                    that is why I insist here. We must not insult her. As you know, she
                                                    is now co-operating with the Synod about V. Vitaly's return, which
                                                    leads to believe that she confessed and was already pardoned by God.
                                                    Pardoned, that is as though the sin that we committed never took
                                                    place.
                                                    "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a
                                                    stone at her." (John 8:6-8)"

                                                    In Christ's love,

                                                    Vladimir Kozyreff

                                                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                                                    > Dear Vladimir and Irina,
                                                    >
                                                    > With all due respect, I'd prefer to err on the side of "dushevnost"
                                                    > then!
                                                    >
                                                    > Christ gave us the story of the Publican and the Pharisee. The
                                                    > Publican, by all standards, was WRONG, unworthy, lived his life not
                                                    > according to the doctrines. Yet he sought God's mercy, in the face
                                                    of
                                                    > all his errors, and indeed, he received it.
                                                    >
                                                    > Now the Pharisee did everything right, by the book. And he expected
                                                    > God's mercy as his reward, and was proud that he wasn't like the
                                                    > Sergianists, oops I mean Publicans.
                                                    >
                                                    > As for references to the retired Metropolitan's acts against
                                                    Vladyka
                                                    > Mark, anyone who was around Synod in those days and saw Vladyka
                                                    > regularly can attest to his temper and his penchant for tossing off
                                                    > punishments on clergy (how many priests were 'forbidden to serve'
                                                    > because they irritated his Eminence. He even tried -- uncanonically
                                                    > and without success! -- to forbid Bishop Gabriel from serving once,
                                                    > because Bishop Gabriel had had a tiff with the now infamous Ms.
                                                    > Rozniansky.) With all due respect, by the late 90s, Met. Vitaly
                                                    often
                                                    > seemed to forget that he "ain't the Pope", with infallability or
                                                    total
                                                    > carte blanche. He should have retired gracefully long ago. Then we
                                                    > would not have this mess today.
                                                    >
                                                    > Finally, when one mentions predictions of schism: just think: who
                                                    are
                                                    > the schismatics here? Poor Vladyka Vitaly at one point said he
                                                    > was tired and just wanted to retire, but I guess he somehow didn't
                                                    > deserve a retirement of 'blazhenstvo' because now he's being used
                                                    to
                                                    > give some tenuous credibility to a group of... yup, SCHISMATICS. If
                                                    > they truly loved and respected him, they would let the man live out
                                                    > his last years in peace. And I am sure that if Vladyka were in his
                                                    > right and once sharp-mind, he'd have a few punishments to scatter
                                                    > around now...
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I will be unable to continue this debate in coming days. I do
                                                    > sincerely wish everyone a blessed Feast of the Trinity.
                                                    >
                                                    > In Christ's love,
                                                    > Elizabeth
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                    > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                    > > Dear Elisabeth,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am afraid that you constantly make the same error: your
                                                    compassion
                                                    > to
                                                    > > people whom we like (the believers in Russia or in Serbia in this
                                                    > case),
                                                    > > makes you turn a
                                                    > > blind eye to what threatens them most: heresy. You think that you
                                                    > are right,
                                                    > > because
                                                    > > you perceive your attitude as a sign of love and humility (the
                                                    beam
                                                    > and the
                                                    > > splinter).
                                                    > > However, you erroneously put your "dushevnost'" (human
                                                    compassion)
                                                    > before
                                                    > > your "dukhovnost'"
                                                    > > (spirituality, that is the Holy Spirit in us).
                                                    > > For an orthodox, nothing can be thought of outside the
                                                    > > limits imposed by the "dukhovnost'", that is nothing can happen
                                                    > outside the
                                                    > > limits of the
                                                    > > Truth. Everything is second to that. Loving God imposes absolute
                                                    > respect for
                                                    > > His truth, that is excludes totally any concession about his
                                                    Truth.
                                                    > Failure
                                                    > > to
                                                    > > respect this principle generates heresies like sergianism and
                                                    > ecumenism.
                                                    > > As you know, the Faith is essential in orthodoxy. "In matters of
                                                    > > faith, no concession can be made" (St John, Chrysostome). In
                                                    > Judaism, people
                                                    > > do not have to believe anything, the Latino-catholic schism
                                                    > originated in an
                                                    > > adulteration of the creed,
                                                    > > which was pushed to extremes in protestantism. Orthodox believers
                                                    > are the
                                                    > > last faithful.
                                                    > > The purity of our faith is our most beloved heritage. Our most
                                                    > sacred duty
                                                    > > is to preserve it.
                                                    > > This infuriates Satan, who has recently increased his pressure on
                                                    > us.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Your attitude relates to the "political correctness" of the
                                                    world.
                                                    > The world
                                                    > > is agnostic, believes that you have no right to claim that you
                                                    hold
                                                    > the
                                                    > > truth, or that there is only one truth. Universal tolerance is
                                                    thus
                                                    > the
                                                    > > natural conclusion of such a concept. If your neighbour believes
                                                    > differently
                                                    > > from you, you must tolerate this and leave him alone, as a sign
                                                    of
                                                    > respect.
                                                    > > Orthodoxy is totally at odds with this thinking.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > As an orthodox believer, you should understand that the position
                                                    of
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Church is totally different. Our love and compassion for our
                                                    > brothers does
                                                    > > not translate in leaving them alone in their error for fear of
                                                    > offending
                                                    > > them, on the contrary:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > 1. We love our Serbian and Russian brothers very much because
                                                    > they are
                                                    > > particularly close to us, because we owe them so much and because
                                                    > they have
                                                    > > endured so much physical, moral and spiritual damage. in our
                                                    parish,
                                                    > since
                                                    > > the NATO aggression, we constantly pray for Serbia, although we
                                                    know
                                                    > that
                                                    > > the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC.
                                                    > > 2. For that very reason, we care for them and we want to help
                                                    > them to
                                                    > > overcome the heresy, which is the most terrible aggression they
                                                    > > are enduring. It is not a shortcoming of theirs, for which we
                                                    must
                                                    > show
                                                    > > understanding,
                                                    > > nor is it a sin that we must not denounce, being sinners
                                                    ourselves.
                                                    > > This heresy is not them, it is foreign to them, it is a poison
                                                    from
                                                    > the
                                                    > > devil
                                                    > > that kills them. Attacking the heresy is not attacking them but
                                                    > saving them.
                                                    > > 3. Identifying the heresy of the MP and of the Serbian Church is
                                                    > not an
                                                    > > aggression against the believers that are in error. On the
                                                    contrary,
                                                    > in
                                                    > > denouncing the heresies of Sergianism and ecumenism, our Church
                                                    is
                                                    > like a
                                                    > > physician who makes the diagnosis of an illness that must be
                                                    cured
                                                    > if those
                                                    > > beloved Russians and Serbs are to be saved.
                                                    > > 4. Our faith in our Church, who has identified and denounced the
                                                    > heresy
                                                    > > in the MP and the Serbian Church, is not an expression of pride
                                                    but
                                                    > one of
                                                    > > humility and obedience to God. We have no doubt whatsoever that
                                                    our
                                                    > Church
                                                    > > is right
                                                    > > and that the heretics are wrong. We are not tolerant to heresy,
                                                    and
                                                    > we
                                                    > > believe that there is only one Truth: the truth that has been
                                                    taught
                                                    > by our
                                                    > > Church.
                                                    > > 5. If we fall into heresy (God forbid), we expect that we will
                                                    be
                                                    > helped out
                                                    > > too.
                                                    > > If I have a beam in my eye, I pray God that my brothers and
                                                    sisters
                                                    > > in the faith help me getting rid of it. Being concerned about the
                                                    > heresy
                                                    > > in which our brothers have fallen is obeying God and being better
                                                    > > Christians than not caring about it. Anyway, we may not have
                                                    > communion with
                                                    > > heretics, as it makes us heretics and separates us from God, who
                                                    is
                                                    > the
                                                    > > person we love most, more than any human.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In Christ's love,
                                                    > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                    > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                    > > De : boulia_1 [mailto:eledkovsky@h...]
                                                    > > Envoye : mardi 18 juin 2002 12:03
                                                    > > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                    > > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Our Church, since the reprehensible NATO "intervention" (i.e. act
                                                    of
                                                    > > War) in Kosovo, has been praying for the suffering Orthodox
                                                    people
                                                    > of
                                                    > > Serbia, where a favorite torture of (Islamic) terrorist Albanians
                                                    > has
                                                    > > been to cut off the thumb and first two fingers of their Serb
                                                    > victims,
                                                    > > so that they cannot proerly form their hands to cross themselves!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Vladyka Antony (Medvedev)of blessed memory was similarly and just
                                                    as
                                                    > > ignorantly criticised for allowing a Serb bishop to serve in the
                                                    SF
                                                    > > cathedral several years back.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Let us not forget, as he then noted from the Ambo, the important
                                                    and
                                                    > > salvationary role the Serb church played in protecting their
                                                    > Orthodox
                                                    > > brethren fleeing the red terror. Indeed, many of our most esteemed
                                                    > > hierarchs were educated in Belgrade (INCLUDING St. John of
                                                    > > Shanghai/S.F.).
                                                    > >
                                                    > > To make a gross generalization, Serbs may not all be the most
                                                    pious
                                                    > of
                                                    > > people, but, again, they are our Orthodox brethren and among the
                                                    > > closest of all, historically, to ROCOR. I cannot understand this
                                                    > > desire to be so isolationist, or this hunger to find fault.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "And why beholdest thou the splinter that is in thy brother's
                                                    eye,
                                                    > but
                                                    > > perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?... Thou
                                                    hypocrite,
                                                    > > cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou
                                                    > see
                                                    > > clearly to pull out the splinter that is in thy brother's eye."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In Christ's love,
                                                    > > Elizabeth
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                    > > <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                    > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                    describe a
                                                    > > very
                                                    > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                    > looks
                                                    > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                    > > position.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                    Church
                                                    > > Abroad of
                                                    > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                    describes
                                                    > a
                                                    > > four-day
                                                    > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                    > 8/21.
                                                    > > The
                                                    > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                    > > co-celebrated
                                                    > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                    > > Churches.
                                                    > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                    > How
                                                    > > can we
                                                    > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                    > with
                                                    > > the
                                                    > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                    > > relative to
                                                    > > > our Church's.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                    > line
                                                    > > of the
                                                    > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                    > > Church,
                                                    > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                    > > obedience
                                                    > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                    > > confuse time?
                                                    > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                    not?
                                                    > > If not,
                                                    > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                    > priests
                                                    > > from
                                                    > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                    > been
                                                    > > heard by
                                                    > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                    > that
                                                    > > they did
                                                    > > > not obey.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > In Christ,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  • frmarkg
                                                    There are various ways to get a list to address a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask a simple question and wait for a response, if there is any
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                                      There are various ways to get a list to address
                                                      a topic which is not being discussed. One is to ask
                                                      a simple question and wait for a response, if there
                                                      is any interest. Such questions may arise from idle
                                                      curiosity or from a real need to know, but it would
                                                      be hard to characterize them as tactical.

                                                      Another familiar way is in fact just a tactic. A
                                                      person or persons who feel that others need to become
                                                      aware of their own perspective on something will use
                                                      a list to display their own views - initially in the
                                                      form of a question (the bait) but the poster (the
                                                      fisherman) may only be trolling for a little sport.

                                                      I think it is apparent where this entire thread
                                                      about Archbp Mark is leading. We have now gotten to
                                                      Metropolitan Vitaly and his secretary. No doubt we
                                                      will soon again be in the throes of a struggle on the
                                                      grounds of Mansonville. And why? Because someone
                                                      wanted to make some points that they feel you need to
                                                      know.

                                                      I think it is time to stop the multiple answers
                                                      to unasked questions. This list is not meant to be
                                                      a place where you can post polemics for many people
                                                      to see. Unlike other lists, I will not restrict
                                                      posting privileges just because someone asks a question
                                                      about a controverisal topic - for the right reasons -
                                                      but there is wisdom in not allowing a topic to dominate
                                                      and set the tone on the list such that the average
                                                      layman doesn't want to participate.

                                                      This list has been, and I'm sure still is, the only
                                                      readily accessible means for some members of our church
                                                      to communicate with their co-religionists. Let's use
                                                      it for the benefit of these who really need this list.

                                                      Mark Markish coined a phrase on the ORTHODOX list
                                                      many years ago to cover such situations. Rather than
                                                      to take bait and cause a struggle to ensue, or to insult
                                                      or otherwise demean someone who is being stupid in your
                                                      eyes, simply "Politely ignore" them. If you see someone's
                                                      arguments or manner as wrong, so does just about everyone
                                                      else. It is not necessary to point this out and lower
                                                      yourself in the process.

                                                      But politely ignoring the undesitable doesn't mean
                                                      to stay quiet - take advantage of this medium - don't
                                                      leave a vacuum of non-participation into which will flow
                                                      all sorts of undesirable things.

                                                      In Christ,
                                                      priest Mark
                                                    • Tim Andrews
                                                      Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to humbly make a
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                                        Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                                        followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                                        humbly make a short note.

                                                        Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                                        of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                                        the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                                        received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                                        share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                                        signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                                        be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                                        example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                                        co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                                        "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                                        Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                                        there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                                        would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                                        make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                                        law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                                        in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                                        Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                                        conjunction with them as well.
                                                        Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                                        respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                                        hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                                        My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                                        While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                                        that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                                        a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                                        forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                                        past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                                        said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                                        immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                                        were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                                        schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                                        ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                                        Forgive me if I have offended,
                                                        Timothy Andrews
                                                      • joeswaydyn2000
                                                        Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position? ... had ... of the ... Memory, ... Synodal ... our ... truth ... we share ... we point ...
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                                          Why do you quote a HOCNA site from 1986 to justify your position?

                                                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                          <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                          > http://www.cybercom.net/~htm/86-6.htm
                                                          >
                                                          > October 15/ 28, 1986
                                                          > The Serbian patriarch himself, in the words of Fr. Justin Popovich,
                                                          had
                                                          > become the leader of 300 protestant churches by being a president
                                                          of the
                                                          > World Council of Churches.
                                                          > under the leadership of the late Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed
                                                          Memory,
                                                          > was the anathema against ecumenism and modernism issued by our
                                                          Synodal
                                                          > bishops.
                                                          > The Anathema . states openly that it is against "those who" promote
                                                          > ecumenism in word and deed..
                                                          > .the Serbian Church by its own arbitrary actions has fallen under
                                                          our
                                                          > Synod's anathema against ecumenism.
                                                          > Friendship .can be strengthened, forgotten or violated; doctrinal
                                                          truth
                                                          > remains constant and unchanging.
                                                          > If we have true friendship with ecclesiastical bodies it is because
                                                          we share
                                                          > the same confession of faith. Indeed, true friendship demands that
                                                          we point
                                                          > out something that may be harmful or detrimental.
                                                          > The Serbian Church has offended our friendship by asking us to
                                                          condone their
                                                          > violation of the canonical and doctrinal norms of the Church.
                                                          > Even in the times of persecution in the past, the Church never
                                                          condoned
                                                          > doctrinal deviations. External conditions, including persecution,
                                                          cannot
                                                          > determine what the Church teaches.
                                                          >
                                                          > In God
                                                          >
                                                          > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Message d'origine-----
                                                          > De : Hristofor [mailto:hristofor@m...]
                                                          > Envoye : mercredi 19 juin 2002 4:03
                                                          > A : orthodox-synod@y...
                                                          > Objet : [orthodox-synod] Communion with the Serbian Church
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To the best of my knowledge, I do not belive the Synod ever
                                                          formally issued
                                                          > a "we are no longer in communion with Serbia" ukase (If someone
                                                          knows to
                                                          > the contrary, pls inform). Obviously, up until the communist
                                                          takeover, we
                                                          > were in communion with the Serbian Church. I belive that the policy
                                                          under
                                                          > Metropolitans Anastassy and Philaret was that there was no
                                                          definitive break
                                                          > with the SC and that it fell on the bishops to use ekonomia.
                                                          >
                                                          > Hristofor
                                                          >
                                                          > At 10:24 PM 6/17/2002, you wrote:
                                                          > >Forgive me, I agree with you a great deal on the MP, et cetera, but
                                                          > >here I have to disagree. Vl Mark is not the sole participant in
                                                          > >communion with the Serbs-- the Synod in general acknowledges such
                                                          > >communion, and in the documents following the 2000 Sobor, they
                                                          > >clearly state why. Nor is this something underhanded as people
                                                          > >claim; when I was first a catechumen in 1998, this concelebration
                                                          was
                                                          > >something I knew about, when I asked who we were in communion
                                                          > >with.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >To boot, the 12 priests in question *were* disobeying, since a new
                                                          > >Bishop had been chosen by the Synod. Whether the Bishop himself was
                                                          > >doing wrong is another matter-- but I wouldn't put the
                                                          > >word 'disobedience' in quotes.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Are the Serbs ecumenist? I don't know. I am not inclined to think
                                                          > >so, however. Not with the 'proof' I have been given.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Joseph
                                                          > >
                                                          > >--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                                          > ><vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                                                          > > > I am glad to see that all those who speak about Vl Mark
                                                          describe a
                                                          > >very
                                                          > > > knowledgeable and respected person.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > I do not have the honour of knowing him, but I insist that he
                                                          looks
                                                          > > > atypical. Below is one more apparent contradiction about his
                                                          > >position.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > In the "Bulletin" of the German Diocese of Russian Orthodox
                                                          Church
                                                          > >Abroad of
                                                          > > > February, 2001, an article entitled " Visit to Serbia "
                                                          describes a
                                                          > >four-day
                                                          > > > visit of Serbia by Vl Mark, from February, 4/17 till February,
                                                          > >8/21. The
                                                          > > > report tells about his visiting a few monasteries in which he
                                                          co-
                                                          > >celebrated
                                                          > > > with Serbian priests.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > The Serbian orthodox church is a member of the World Council of
                                                          > >Churches.
                                                          > > > The ecumenical movement was anathematised by our church in1983.
                                                          How
                                                          > >can we
                                                          > > > reconcliate the anathema of our Church with Vl Mark's communion
                                                          > >with the
                                                          > > > Serbian Church? Again, I cannot understand Vl Mark's position
                                                          > >relative to
                                                          > > > our Church's.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Do we not expect bishops to act, think and teach following the
                                                          line
                                                          > >of the
                                                          > > > Church? Is this co-celebration not a clear disobedience to the
                                                          > >Church,
                                                          > > > committed in difficult times by a bishop that incidently teaches
                                                          > >obedience
                                                          > > > to his flock? Does this not add to the confusion of an already
                                                          > >confuse time?
                                                          > > > Is he anathema for communed with an anatematised movement? Or
                                                          not?
                                                          > >If not,
                                                          > > > why? Is this a acceptable question to put?
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Please explain this to me. I am puzzled. In the meantime, 12
                                                          > >priests from
                                                          > > > Western Europe were suspended for "disobeying", without having
                                                          been
                                                          > >heard by
                                                          > > > the Synod and without any explanation to the believers, except
                                                          that
                                                          > >they did
                                                          > > > not obey.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > In Christ,
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                        • Michael Nikitin
                                                          When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn t serve with them no
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jun 23, 2002
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            When the first split occured in 1986 I asked Bishop Hillarion if we serve
                                                            with the Serbs who are in ecumenism. He told me that he doesn't serve with
                                                            them no matter if the others do. This is what they say when things are
                                                            unstable.
                                                            We have no reason for dialogue. They will not learn anything that they don't
                                                            already know. Our dialogue with them will only cause us to acquiesce to
                                                            ecumenism and the WCC. What's to stop us from having dialogue in the WCC?
                                                            After all maybe we can help those in the WCC also?
                                                            Do not fall into deceit. When you grow older you will understand.

                                                            MN


                                                            From: "Tim Andrews" <ireand@...>
                                                            Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Re: Interview with Vl. Mark
                                                            Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:44:01 +1000


                                                            Forgive me in my youth (I am 19) and naivety if I err, however, having
                                                            followed the recent discussions with great interest, I feel obliged to
                                                            humbly make a short note.

                                                            Earlier today I was at a function with Archbishop Hillarion (Archbishop
                                                            of Australia and NZ if you are unaware) and, being blindly ignorant of
                                                            the facts surrounding this issue other than about the emails I have
                                                            received, I asked him a few questions about it, and I thought I would
                                                            share his response. Firstly, he stated that the synod has never formally
                                                            signed an ukaze against the Serbian Orthodox Church for, while they may
                                                            be members of the WCC, they are not as heavily involved in it as, for
                                                            example, Constantinople, and it is permissible for our priests to
                                                            co-celebrate with Serbian ones. Therefore, in response to the question
                                                            "I cannot understand Vladika Mark's position
                                                            Relative to our Church's", the answer seems to be quite straightforward,
                                                            there is no conflict whatsoever! I would suggest that our Archbishop
                                                            would know, and I do not believe that any of us are in the position to
                                                            make judgments about our hierarchs, whether we are able to quote cannon
                                                            law or not. I know that in Australia at least, we our Youth Conference
                                                            in December will be held in conjunction with the Serbian Orthodox
                                                            Church. We now conduct seminars and bible-study for the youth in
                                                            conjunction with them as well.
                                                            Archbishop Hillarion went on to say that Vladika Mark is one of the most
                                                            respected members of Synod, and has the full support of all the
                                                            hierarchs of the ROCA.

                                                            My own personal opinions as to dialogue with the MP are rather simple.
                                                            While they may be in the wrong over Serganism and ecumenicalism, I think
                                                            that they will not come to the true path by themselves, but rather need
                                                            a helping hand given, by us, in the form of dialogue. We must look
                                                            forward to the future, as opposed to solely looking at the sins of the
                                                            past, with labels such as "stalinist". This is not productive! Having
                                                            said that, however, I would not support us rushing into dialogue
                                                            immediately, despite my own personal beliefs, in that I fear if that
                                                            were to take place, there is a very real likelihood of yet another
                                                            schism occurring, and thus we must proceed with patience. Nevertheless,
                                                            ultimately we need to strive for dialogue.

                                                            Forgive me if I have offended,
                                                            Timothy Andrews



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