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Re: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark

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  • Joachim Wertz
    Dear Vladimir, CHRIST IS RISEN! Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl. Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
      Dear Vladimir,

      CHRIST IS RISEN!

      Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
      Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
      (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
      Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
      views read this article.

      I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

      One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
      family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
      questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
      But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

      I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
      best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
      again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
      "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

      Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
      remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
      dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
      "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
      Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

      In Christ,

      Joachim Wertz

      ----------
      From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
      Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


      This refers to:

      An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

      Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
      to me:

      Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
      become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
      theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
      the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
      for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

      Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
      to this in the interview?

      Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
      student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
      could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
      in Heidelberg.

      I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

      In Christ,

      Vladimir Kozyreff




      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • maureengirard
      You were given an answer on another group site. What do you really want? ... to ... in ... bishop ... there? ... general
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
        You were given an answer on another group site. What do you really
        want?

        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
        wrote:
        > This refers to:
        >
        > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
        >
        > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
        > to me:
        >
        > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
        to
        > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
        > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
        in
        > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
        bishop
        > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
        there?
        >
        > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
        > to this in the interview?
        >
        > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
        > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
        general
        > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
        > in Heidelberg.
        >
        > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
        >
        > In Christ,
        >
        > Vladimir Kozyreff
      • stefanvpavlenko
        All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing he did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the rest is off also!
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
          All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing he
          did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
          rest is off also!
          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
          > This refers to:
          >
          > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
          >
          > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
          > to me:
          >
          > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
          > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
          > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
          > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
          > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?
          >
          > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
          > to this in the interview?
          >
          > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
          > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
          > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
          > in Heidelberg.
          >
          > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Vladimir Kozyreff
        • boulia_1
          The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this. I have deepest respect for the erudite,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
            The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an
            all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this.

            I have deepest respect for the erudite, intelligent, and deeply
            faithful Vladyka Mark (now 'my' Bishop as I live in Germany)... but
            if I may respectfully point out to my dearest O. Stefan that what
            he says are off base comments are really just questions that arise
            from the interview and biographical sketch of Abp. Mark that's been
            zipping around cyberspace the last few days.

            In that piece, it IS mentioned that he was born in Chemnitz (part of
            the DDR East Germany) but educated in Heidelberg (West Germany) -- the
            missing link was how he got from east to west, which, by the time
            Michael Arndt was old enough to be a university student, wasn't easy,
            what, with the infamous wall and other border tightenings that went on
            in the early 60s. ...

            It also says that he had both tried to enter Mt. Athos and had applied
            to Holy Trinity/St. Sergius Lavra seminary, but after a long wait, was
            rejected.

            I think the questions are honest; I don't think they necessarily must
            be seen as an attack on Vladyka Mark, though it may belie a primitive
            (fundamentalist) attitude (forgive my judging words!) about how
            attention to jurisdictional lines constitutes constitutes loyalty to
            the True Church.

            I personally think ROCOR is blessed to have such a well-educated
            leader, having seen much of the world beyond the familiar interior
            walls of his own house.

            Respectfully,
            Elizabeth

            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "stefanvpavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@n...>
            wrote:
            > All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing
            he
            > did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
            > rest is off also!
            > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            >
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
            wrote:
            > > This refers to:
            > >
            > > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
            > >
            > > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not
            clear
            > > to me:
            > >
            > > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
            to
            > > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
            > > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
            in
            > > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
            bishop
            > > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
            there?
            > >
            > > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not
            allude
            > > to this in the interview?
            > >
            > > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
            > > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
            general
            > > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study
            theology
            > > in Heidelberg.
            > >
            > > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
            > >
            > > In Christ,
            > >
            > > Vladimir Kozyreff
          • vladimir kozyreff
            Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Thank you for your reply. I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he express the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
              Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

              Thank you for your reply.

              I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he
              express the meaning of the Church or his own?

              If he does not express the meaning of the Church, has he the right to do so
              and should he not make clear whom he represents?

              Is it the understanding of our Church that the MP is really the Church of
              Russia? In spite of having been founded by Stalin with the purpose of
              eradicating the real Church and having performed that mission with a certain
              success?

              If there are "stalinist" elements in the MP, is Patriarch Alexis II not the
              most stalinist of them all? Was it then well advised to have so frequent
              contacts with him? Especially against the opinion of the Metropolitan?

              Will our Church really seek legitimacy from an "autocephaly" obtained from
              the MP, as Friest Potapov once suggested, thus renouncing the legitimacy she
              once received from Partiarch Tikhon?

              Will our Church abandon all intention she may have had and all mission she
              may have received to return to Russia to be fully the legitimate Church in
              Russia again?

              What will the difference be with the OCA? Especially if our Church is bound
              to loose its Russian character and to receive its autocephaly from the MP,
              in spite of the latter considering the Latino-catholics as a "Sister Church"
              and continuing to proclaim that collaborating with Stalin, excommunicating
              the Martyrs (to re-instate them afterwards) and failing in those days to
              confess Christ before men is what saved the Church?

              Is the Synod of our Church totally free of contradictions? Did it not state
              first that it disapproved Vl Michael's failed attempt to take Vl Vitaly back
              to NY? Did it not later fail to issue any apology to Vl Vitaly? Why did it
              not even officially distance itself from the violence that took place and
              did it then promote Vl Michael after all as though nothing had happened? Is
              this an extremist question on my behalf?

              If the Synod did consider the complaint filed against Vl Ambrosius as
              futile, why did it not fulfil its guidance duty by explaining this to the
              believers?

              Please, brothers and sisters in Christs, do not insult me but be so kind as
              to explain to me if you will be so kind.

              May God have mercy!

              In Christ,

              Vladimir Kozyreff

              -----Message d'origine-----
              De : Joachim Wertz [mailto:wertz@...]
              Envoye : mercredi 12 juin 2002 2:26
              A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Cc : orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com
              Objet : Re: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark


              Dear Vladimir,

              CHRIST IS RISEN!

              Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
              Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
              (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
              Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
              views read this article.

              I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

              One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
              family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
              questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
              But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

              I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
              best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
              again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
              "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

              Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
              remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
              dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
              "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
              Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

              In Christ,

              Joachim Wertz

              ----------
              From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
              Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


              This refers to:

              An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

              Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
              to me:

              Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
              become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
              theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
              the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
              for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

              Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
              to this in the interview?

              Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
              student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
              could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
              in Heidelberg.

              I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

              In Christ,

              Vladimir Kozyreff




              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Joachim Wertz
              Dear Vladimir, Let me reply to your first questions. In the interviews he gave, Vl. Mark seems to me to make clear whenever he is voicing his own opinion. In
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
                Dear Vladimir,
                Let me reply to your first questions. In the interviews he gave, Vl. Mark
                seems to me to make clear whenever he is voicing his own opinion. In his
                remarks at the roundtable discussion printed in "Der Bote", Vl. Mark gives
                his opinion that the Synod Abroad is PART of the Russian Church, the other
                parts being the MP and the Catacomb Church. He states also his opinion that
                since the '70's there remained no true catacomb bishop. I decline to answer
                your other questions in that they involve speculation and personal opinions.
                However in the two interviews, I believe, Vl. Mark does not speak of
                "autocephaly". Personally, I gather from reading his words, that Vl. Mark is
                more critical and less optimistic about the MP than some other people in the
                ROCOR, but on the other hand more realistic.

                In Christ,

                Joachim Wertz

                ----------
                From: "vladimir kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
                Date: Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 4:37 PM


                Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

                Thank you for your reply.

                I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he
                express the meaning of the Church or his own?

                If he does not express the meaning of the Church, has he the right to do so
                and should he not make clear whom he represents?

                Is it the understanding of our Church that the MP is really the Church of
                Russia? In spite of having been founded by Stalin with the purpose of
                eradicating the real Church and having performed that mission with a certain
                success?

                If there are "stalinist" elements in the MP, is Patriarch Alexis II not the
                most stalinist of them all? Was it then well advised to have so frequent
                contacts with him? Especially against the opinion of the Metropolitan?

                Will our Church really seek legitimacy from an "autocephaly" obtained from
                the MP, as Friest Potapov once suggested, thus renouncing the legitimacy she
                once received from Partiarch Tikhon?

                Will our Church abandon all intention she may have had and all mission she
                may have received to return to Russia to be fully the legitimate Church in
                Russia again?

                What will the difference be with the OCA? Especially if our Church is bound
                to loose its Russian character and to receive its autocephaly from the MP,
                in spite of the latter considering the Latino-catholics as a "Sister Church"
                and continuing to proclaim that collaborating with Stalin, excommunicating
                the Martyrs (to re-instate them afterwards) and failing in those days to
                confess Christ before men is what saved the Church?

                Is the Synod of our Church totally free of contradictions? Did it not state
                first that it disapproved Vl Michael's failed attempt to take Vl Vitaly back
                to NY? Did it not later fail to issue any apology to Vl Vitaly? Why did it
                not even officially distance itself from the violence that took place and
                did it then promote Vl Michael after all as though nothing had happened? Is
                this an extremist question on my behalf?

                If the Synod did consider the complaint filed against Vl Ambrosius as
                futile, why did it not fulfil its guidance duty by explaining this to the
                believers?

                Please, brothers and sisters in Christs, do not insult me but be so kind as
                to explain to me if you will be so kind.

                May God have mercy!

                In Christ,

                Vladimir Kozyreff

                -----Message d'origine-----
                De : Joachim Wertz [mailto:wertz@...]
                Envoye : mercredi 12 juin 2002 2:26
                A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Cc : orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com
                Objet : Re: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark


                Dear Vladimir,

                CHRIST IS RISEN!

                Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
                Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
                (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
                Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
                views read this article.

                I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

                One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
                family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
                questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
                But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

                I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
                best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
                again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
                "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

                Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
                remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
                dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
                "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
                Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

                In Christ,

                Joachim Wertz

                ----------
                From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
                Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


                This refers to:

                An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

                Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
                to me:

                Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
                become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
                the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
                for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

                Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
                to this in the interview?

                Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
                could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
                in Heidelberg.

                I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

                In Christ,

                Vladimir Kozyreff




                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • stefanvpavlenko
                I stand corrected! Actually, I m sitting at my computer... One more time! XPICTOC BOCKRECE! CHRIST IS RISEN! o Stefan P.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
                  I stand corrected!

                  Actually, I'm sitting at my computer...

                  One more time!

                  XPICTOC BOCKRECE!
                  CHRIST IS RISEN!
                  o Stefan P.


                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                  > The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an
                  > all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this.
                  >
                  > I have deepest respect for the erudite, intelligent, and deeply
                  > faithful Vladyka Mark (now 'my' Bishop as I live in Germany)... but
                  > if I may respectfully point out to my dearest O. Stefan that what
                  > he says are off base comments are really just questions that arise
                  > from the interview and biographical sketch of Abp. Mark that's been
                  > zipping around cyberspace the last few days.
                  >
                  > In that piece, it IS mentioned that he was born in Chemnitz (part of
                  > the DDR East Germany) but educated in Heidelberg (West Germany) -- the
                  > missing link was how he got from east to west, which, by the time
                  > Michael Arndt was old enough to be a university student, wasn't easy,
                  > what, with the infamous wall and other border tightenings that went on
                  > in the early 60s. ...
                  >
                  > It also says that he had both tried to enter Mt. Athos and had applied
                  > to Holy Trinity/St. Sergius Lavra seminary, but after a long wait, was
                  > rejected.
                  >
                  > I think the questions are honest; I don't think they necessarily must
                  > be seen as an attack on Vladyka Mark, though it may belie a primitive
                  > (fundamentalist) attitude (forgive my judging words!) about how
                  > attention to jurisdictional lines constitutes constitutes loyalty to
                  > the True Church.
                  >
                  > I personally think ROCOR is blessed to have such a well-educated
                  > leader, having seen much of the world beyond the familiar interior
                  > walls of his own house.
                  >
                  > Respectfully,
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "stefanvpavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@n...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing
                  > he
                  > > did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
                  > > rest is off also!
                  > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > > This refers to:
                  > > >
                  > > > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
                  > > >
                  > > > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not
                  > clear
                  > > > to me:
                  > > >
                  > > > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
                  > to
                  > > > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                  > > > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
                  > in
                  > > > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
                  > bishop
                  > > > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
                  > there?
                  > > >
                  > > > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not
                  > allude
                  > > > to this in the interview?
                  > > >
                  > > > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                  > > > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
                  > general
                  > > > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study
                  > theology
                  > > > in Heidelberg.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
                  > > >
                  > > > In Christ,
                  > > >
                  > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                • vladimir kozyreff
                  Dear List, A concept which is often debated is the canonical territory . In his latest inteviw in
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 23, 2002
                    Dear List,

                    A concept which is often debated is the "canonical territory". In his latest
                    inteviw in < Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark says:

                    - The concept of " canonical territory " is an innovation! This term never
                    earlier in Church existed, and it is better to not use it because it turns
                    the attention away from thre essential...

                    http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html

                    It seems in fact that the concept is not that new. The Church has always
                    been organised on a territorial basis. A diocese is a territory.

                    Below is a reference that documents this idea.

                    In Christ,

                    Vladimir Kozyreff


                    The Patriarchate of Moscow, as the local Church and in accordance with its
                    official founding ecclesiastical Acts, also has its canonical jurisdiction
                    with geographical boundaries and geographical restrictions, according once
                    again to the canonical teaching and ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church.

                    Its canonical jurisdiction - "the territory" - extends "to all Russia",
                    namely as noted also above, within the boundaries of the Russian dominion
                    and not beyond these.

                    http://www.orthodoxa.org/orthodoxie/droit%20canon/russianterritory.htm
                  • vladimir kozyreff
                    Dear List, In his June 5, 2002 interview to Nezavisimaya gazeta , Vl Mark says: - In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a further
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 23, 2002
                      Dear List,

                      In his June 5, 2002 interview to "Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark says:

                      - "In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a
                      further dialogue in the form which was described already by Patriarch Aleksy
                      II.

                      - In one of the interviews he gave, he recognised natural, that the ROCOR
                      part of the Russian Church has a life, features which were developed for 80
                      years, and nobody should bury them into oblivion.

                      - For example, among our parishioners there are a a lot of non-Russians. We
                      thus in many respects differ from the Russian parishes.

                      - Any model of a mutual recognition which gradually would pass in the form
                      of an autonomy is therefore necessary".

                      http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html

                      I cannot understand Vl Mark's concept of "mutual recognition".

                      - If the MP will renounce sergianism, ecumenism etc. and convert, we will be
                      all part of the Russian Church and there would be no object for any "mutual
                      recognition". Our "recognition" is automatic for all that have converted,
                      without any declaration of any kind, in the same way that martyrs are
                      recognised as saints, automatically, without any canonisation.

                      - If the MP will not renounce sergianism, ecumenism etc., then there can be
                      no recognition whatsoever on our part. The Church recognises only those and
                      all those who follow Christ and His teaching, and make no concession to the
                      worldly powers.

                      - What is the autonomy Vl Mark is talking about? Did we not receive our
                      autonomy from Patriarch Tikhon? Is the MP not autonomous too (except its
                      links with the KGB)?

                      - Is there now no "form of coexistence"? Both the MP and the ROCOR do
                      coexist.

                      I have another proposal:

                      - If the MP does convert, we will be reunited with our Russian brothers and
                      sisters. We pray for it every day.

                      - Both the ROCOR and the present "MP" will cease to exist and there will be
                      only "the Russian Church".

                      - The believers that the ROCOR will leave behind her and that have no
                      particular relation to Russia (it seems that they have become many)will
                      found other Churches, named after the countries in which they live. These
                      Churches will eventually reunite with local "orthodox" when the latter do
                      convert, if there is no real local Church already. If there is one, there
                      will be no reason for them not to join them. The Russian Church will keep a
                      presence abroad, for the numerous Russian (or affiliated) population
                      disseminated world wide. Anybody will be welcome to pray in her churches.
                      Vl Mark will probably be part of the German Orthodox Church. Our hihghest
                      hierarch will be the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russias. May God allow this
                      to happen!

                      In God,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff
                    • joeswaydyn2000
                      ... hihghest ... allow this ... Why is it that the All-Russian Sobor appears to have been forgotten and replaced with dialogues ? No matter what position
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 24, 2002
                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                        <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:

                        > Vl Mark will probably be part of the German Orthodox Church. Our
                        hihghest
                        > hierarch will be the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russias. May God
                        allow this
                        > to happen!

                        Why is it that the 'All-Russian Sobor' appears to have been forgotten
                        and replaced with 'dialogues'? No matter what position you take
                        toward the MP (mine is negative) I thought the Russian Church
                        situation would be resolved when the whole Russian Church is
                        represented. Just a thought.
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