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Israeli Army Damages Orthodox Church "by Mistake"

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  • kosovo_au
    Are these troops from the same army that went into Ramallah, the Jenin refugee camp and Bethlehem prepared with detailed maps of the location of every alley,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 3, 2002
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      Are these troops from the same army that went into Ramallah, the
      Jenin refugee camp and Bethlehem prepared with detailed maps of the
      location of every alley, `terrorist' centre, bomb factory, corner
      store and stray dog??? Hmmmm.

      Fr Joachim


      Israeli Army Damages Orthodox Church "by Mistake"


      RAMALLAH, West Bank, JUNE 2, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The Israeli army
      admitted Saturday that at dawn it damaged an old Orthodox church "by
      mistake," splintering its doors with dynamite.

      The church is located near the village of Abud, some 15 kilometers
      (nine miles) northwest of Ramallah.

      "Nothing made us think that it was a church; it looked like a
      grotto," an Israeli army spokesman told the press, explaining that
      the soldiers were looking for Palestinian suspects.

      "Once inside they saw a cross, realized it was a place of worship,
      and left the place," the spokesman added. He said the army apologized
      to the Palestinians in charge.

      Residents of Abud and Palestinian authorities said the church was
      destroyed by the explosion. They said it was the medireview (sic)
      Orthodox Church of St. Barbara, restored several years ago, although
      it was not used daily.
      ZE02060206
    • vkozyreff
      This refers to: An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov. Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear to me: Why, as Vl Mark
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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        This refers to:

        An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

        Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
        to me:

        Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
        become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
        theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
        the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
        for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

        Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
        to this in the interview?

        Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
        student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
        could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
        in Heidelberg.

        I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

        In Christ,

        Vladimir Kozyreff
      • byakimov@csc.com.au
        Dear Vladimir I was at the time at HTS when he came but he found that the courses offered threre were not to his expectations & so he searched for something
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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          Dear Vladimir

          I was at the time at HTS when he came but he found that the courses
          offered threre were not to his expectations & so he searched for something
          else.
          The then Bishop Paul did not send him to the USSR - I assume this was
          before he
          came to HTS & probably before Bishop Paul took any involvement in the
          future
          Bishop Mark's future studies.

          unworthy protodeacon basil form Canberra




          "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...> on 12/06/2002 05:32:35 AM

          Please respond to orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          cc:
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark


          This refers to:

          An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

          Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
          to me:

          Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
          become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
          theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
          the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
          for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

          Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
          to this in the interview?

          Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
          student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
          could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
          in Heidelberg.

          I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

          In Christ,

          Vladimir Kozyreff





          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • hermitage@infoave.net
          Dear Mr Kozyreff, XB! Archbishop Mark has a phone number and email address, why don t you just address your questions to him personally? He speaks English,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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            Dear Mr Kozyreff,

            XB!

            Archbishop Mark has a phone number and email address, why don't you just
            address your questions to him personally?

            He speaks English, Russian and German, so language shouldn't be a problem.


            In Christ,
            John, monk



            At 07:32 PM 6/11/2002 +0000, you wrote:
            >This refers to:
            >
            >An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
            >
            >Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
            >to me:
            >
            >Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
            >become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
            >theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
            >the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
            >for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?
            >
            >Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
            >to this in the interview?
            >
            >Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
            >student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
            >could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
            >in Heidelberg.
            >
            >I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
            >
            >In Christ,
            >
            >Vladimir Kozyreff
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Joachim Wertz
            Dear Vladimir, CHRIST IS RISEN! Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl. Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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              Dear Vladimir,

              CHRIST IS RISEN!

              Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
              Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
              (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
              Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
              views read this article.

              I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

              One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
              family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
              questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
              But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

              I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
              best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
              again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
              "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

              Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
              remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
              dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
              "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
              Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

              In Christ,

              Joachim Wertz

              ----------
              From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
              Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


              This refers to:

              An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

              Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
              to me:

              Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
              become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
              theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
              the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
              for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

              Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
              to this in the interview?

              Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
              student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
              could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
              in Heidelberg.

              I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

              In Christ,

              Vladimir Kozyreff




              Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • maureengirard
              You were given an answer on another group site. What do you really want? ... to ... in ... bishop ... there? ... general
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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                You were given an answer on another group site. What do you really
                want?

                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                wrote:
                > This refers to:
                >
                > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
                >
                > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
                > to me:
                >
                > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
                to
                > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
                in
                > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
                bishop
                > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
                there?
                >
                > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
                > to this in the interview?
                >
                > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
                general
                > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
                > in Heidelberg.
                >
                > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
                >
                > In Christ,
                >
                > Vladimir Kozyreff
              • stefanvpavlenko
                All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing he did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the rest is off also!
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 11, 2002
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                  All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing he
                  did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
                  rest is off also!
                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                  > This refers to:
                  >
                  > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
                  >
                  > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
                  > to me:
                  >
                  > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
                  > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                  > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
                  > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
                  > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?
                  >
                  > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
                  > to this in the interview?
                  >
                  > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                  > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
                  > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
                  > in Heidelberg.
                  >
                  > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
                  >
                  > In Christ,
                  >
                  > Vladimir Kozyreff
                • boulia_1
                  The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this. I have deepest respect for the erudite,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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                    The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an
                    all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this.

                    I have deepest respect for the erudite, intelligent, and deeply
                    faithful Vladyka Mark (now 'my' Bishop as I live in Germany)... but
                    if I may respectfully point out to my dearest O. Stefan that what
                    he says are off base comments are really just questions that arise
                    from the interview and biographical sketch of Abp. Mark that's been
                    zipping around cyberspace the last few days.

                    In that piece, it IS mentioned that he was born in Chemnitz (part of
                    the DDR East Germany) but educated in Heidelberg (West Germany) -- the
                    missing link was how he got from east to west, which, by the time
                    Michael Arndt was old enough to be a university student, wasn't easy,
                    what, with the infamous wall and other border tightenings that went on
                    in the early 60s. ...

                    It also says that he had both tried to enter Mt. Athos and had applied
                    to Holy Trinity/St. Sergius Lavra seminary, but after a long wait, was
                    rejected.

                    I think the questions are honest; I don't think they necessarily must
                    be seen as an attack on Vladyka Mark, though it may belie a primitive
                    (fundamentalist) attitude (forgive my judging words!) about how
                    attention to jurisdictional lines constitutes constitutes loyalty to
                    the True Church.

                    I personally think ROCOR is blessed to have such a well-educated
                    leader, having seen much of the world beyond the familiar interior
                    walls of his own house.

                    Respectfully,
                    Elizabeth

                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "stefanvpavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@n...>
                    wrote:
                    > All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing
                    he
                    > did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
                    > rest is off also!
                    > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > > This refers to:
                    > >
                    > > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
                    > >
                    > > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not
                    clear
                    > > to me:
                    > >
                    > > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
                    to
                    > > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                    > > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
                    in
                    > > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
                    bishop
                    > > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
                    there?
                    > >
                    > > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not
                    allude
                    > > to this in the interview?
                    > >
                    > > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                    > > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
                    general
                    > > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study
                    theology
                    > > in Heidelberg.
                    > >
                    > > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
                    > >
                    > > In Christ,
                    > >
                    > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                  • vladimir kozyreff
                    Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Thank you for your reply. I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he express the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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                      Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

                      Thank you for your reply.

                      I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he
                      express the meaning of the Church or his own?

                      If he does not express the meaning of the Church, has he the right to do so
                      and should he not make clear whom he represents?

                      Is it the understanding of our Church that the MP is really the Church of
                      Russia? In spite of having been founded by Stalin with the purpose of
                      eradicating the real Church and having performed that mission with a certain
                      success?

                      If there are "stalinist" elements in the MP, is Patriarch Alexis II not the
                      most stalinist of them all? Was it then well advised to have so frequent
                      contacts with him? Especially against the opinion of the Metropolitan?

                      Will our Church really seek legitimacy from an "autocephaly" obtained from
                      the MP, as Friest Potapov once suggested, thus renouncing the legitimacy she
                      once received from Partiarch Tikhon?

                      Will our Church abandon all intention she may have had and all mission she
                      may have received to return to Russia to be fully the legitimate Church in
                      Russia again?

                      What will the difference be with the OCA? Especially if our Church is bound
                      to loose its Russian character and to receive its autocephaly from the MP,
                      in spite of the latter considering the Latino-catholics as a "Sister Church"
                      and continuing to proclaim that collaborating with Stalin, excommunicating
                      the Martyrs (to re-instate them afterwards) and failing in those days to
                      confess Christ before men is what saved the Church?

                      Is the Synod of our Church totally free of contradictions? Did it not state
                      first that it disapproved Vl Michael's failed attempt to take Vl Vitaly back
                      to NY? Did it not later fail to issue any apology to Vl Vitaly? Why did it
                      not even officially distance itself from the violence that took place and
                      did it then promote Vl Michael after all as though nothing had happened? Is
                      this an extremist question on my behalf?

                      If the Synod did consider the complaint filed against Vl Ambrosius as
                      futile, why did it not fulfil its guidance duty by explaining this to the
                      believers?

                      Please, brothers and sisters in Christs, do not insult me but be so kind as
                      to explain to me if you will be so kind.

                      May God have mercy!

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff

                      -----Message d'origine-----
                      De : Joachim Wertz [mailto:wertz@...]
                      Envoye : mercredi 12 juin 2002 2:26
                      A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc : orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com
                      Objet : Re: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark


                      Dear Vladimir,

                      CHRIST IS RISEN!

                      Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
                      Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
                      (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
                      Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
                      views read this article.

                      I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

                      One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
                      family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
                      questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
                      But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

                      I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
                      best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
                      again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
                      "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

                      Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
                      remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
                      dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
                      "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
                      Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

                      In Christ,

                      Joachim Wertz

                      ----------
                      From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
                      Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


                      This refers to:

                      An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

                      Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
                      to me:

                      Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
                      become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                      theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
                      the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
                      for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

                      Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
                      to this in the interview?

                      Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                      student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
                      could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
                      in Heidelberg.

                      I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

                      In Christ,

                      Vladimir Kozyreff




                      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Joachim Wertz
                      Dear Vladimir, Let me reply to your first questions. In the interviews he gave, Vl. Mark seems to me to make clear whenever he is voicing his own opinion. In
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Vladimir,
                        Let me reply to your first questions. In the interviews he gave, Vl. Mark
                        seems to me to make clear whenever he is voicing his own opinion. In his
                        remarks at the roundtable discussion printed in "Der Bote", Vl. Mark gives
                        his opinion that the Synod Abroad is PART of the Russian Church, the other
                        parts being the MP and the Catacomb Church. He states also his opinion that
                        since the '70's there remained no true catacomb bishop. I decline to answer
                        your other questions in that they involve speculation and personal opinions.
                        However in the two interviews, I believe, Vl. Mark does not speak of
                        "autocephaly". Personally, I gather from reading his words, that Vl. Mark is
                        more critical and less optimistic about the MP than some other people in the
                        ROCOR, but on the other hand more realistic.

                        In Christ,

                        Joachim Wertz

                        ----------
                        From: "vladimir kozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
                        Date: Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 4:37 PM


                        Dear Joachim, dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

                        Thank you for your reply.

                        I have more questions: when a bishop gives such an interview, does he
                        express the meaning of the Church or his own?

                        If he does not express the meaning of the Church, has he the right to do so
                        and should he not make clear whom he represents?

                        Is it the understanding of our Church that the MP is really the Church of
                        Russia? In spite of having been founded by Stalin with the purpose of
                        eradicating the real Church and having performed that mission with a certain
                        success?

                        If there are "stalinist" elements in the MP, is Patriarch Alexis II not the
                        most stalinist of them all? Was it then well advised to have so frequent
                        contacts with him? Especially against the opinion of the Metropolitan?

                        Will our Church really seek legitimacy from an "autocephaly" obtained from
                        the MP, as Friest Potapov once suggested, thus renouncing the legitimacy she
                        once received from Partiarch Tikhon?

                        Will our Church abandon all intention she may have had and all mission she
                        may have received to return to Russia to be fully the legitimate Church in
                        Russia again?

                        What will the difference be with the OCA? Especially if our Church is bound
                        to loose its Russian character and to receive its autocephaly from the MP,
                        in spite of the latter considering the Latino-catholics as a "Sister Church"
                        and continuing to proclaim that collaborating with Stalin, excommunicating
                        the Martyrs (to re-instate them afterwards) and failing in those days to
                        confess Christ before men is what saved the Church?

                        Is the Synod of our Church totally free of contradictions? Did it not state
                        first that it disapproved Vl Michael's failed attempt to take Vl Vitaly back
                        to NY? Did it not later fail to issue any apology to Vl Vitaly? Why did it
                        not even officially distance itself from the violence that took place and
                        did it then promote Vl Michael after all as though nothing had happened? Is
                        this an extremist question on my behalf?

                        If the Synod did consider the complaint filed against Vl Ambrosius as
                        futile, why did it not fulfil its guidance duty by explaining this to the
                        believers?

                        Please, brothers and sisters in Christs, do not insult me but be so kind as
                        to explain to me if you will be so kind.

                        May God have mercy!

                        In Christ,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff

                        -----Message d'origine-----
                        De : Joachim Wertz [mailto:wertz@...]
                        Envoye : mercredi 12 juin 2002 2:26
                        A : orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc : orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com
                        Objet : Re: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark


                        Dear Vladimir,

                        CHRIST IS RISEN!

                        Most if not all of your questions are answered in an interview given by Vl.
                        Mark to Evgeniy Vereshagin that appeared in the journal "Kontinent", No. 98
                        (4) 1998, pp. 280-308, in Russian. Somehow I think you may be able to read
                        Russian. I would highly recommend that anyone interested in Vl. Mark and his
                        views read this article.

                        I do not know what the "NTS movement" is/was. Could you elaborate?

                        One simple thing I can clarify for you from the article is that Vl. Mark's
                        family left East Germany when he was in his younger years. As to your other
                        questions, I do not have the time, at present to translate from the article.
                        But I do highly suggest that you find and read it.

                        I would offer to send you a photocopy of the article, but mine is not of the
                        best quality and I think it would be illegible in parts if I were to copy it
                        again. Are you in Belgium? Maybe you can obtain it through what we here call
                        "inter-library loan", or perhaps at a university library.

                        Another suggestion: If you can read German, take a look at Abp. Mark's
                        remarks in the article "Orthodoxe Tagung --Fortsetzung: Einheit--auf
                        dogmatischer, aber nicht administrativer Ebene!"
                        "Der Bote der deutschen Dioezese der Russischen Orthodoxen Kirche im
                        Ausland", No. 2, 1996, pp. 10-15.

                        In Christ,

                        Joachim Wertz

                        ----------
                        From: "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@...>
                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] An Interview with Archbishop Mark
                        Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2002, 3:32 PM


                        This refers to:

                        An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.

                        Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not clear
                        to me:

                        Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply to
                        become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                        theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying in
                        the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his bishop
                        for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him there?

                        Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not allude
                        to this in the interview?

                        Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                        student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in general
                        could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study theology
                        in Heidelberg.

                        I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?

                        In Christ,

                        Vladimir Kozyreff




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                      • stefanvpavlenko
                        I stand corrected! Actually, I m sitting at my computer... One more time! XPICTOC BOCKRECE! CHRIST IS RISEN! o Stefan P.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 12, 2002
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                          I stand corrected!

                          Actually, I'm sitting at my computer...

                          One more time!

                          XPICTOC BOCKRECE!
                          CHRIST IS RISEN!
                          o Stefan P.


                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
                          > The most highly esteemed and beloved O. Stefan was probably pulling an
                          > all-nighter baking prosfora when he posted this.
                          >
                          > I have deepest respect for the erudite, intelligent, and deeply
                          > faithful Vladyka Mark (now 'my' Bishop as I live in Germany)... but
                          > if I may respectfully point out to my dearest O. Stefan that what
                          > he says are off base comments are really just questions that arise
                          > from the interview and biographical sketch of Abp. Mark that's been
                          > zipping around cyberspace the last few days.
                          >
                          > In that piece, it IS mentioned that he was born in Chemnitz (part of
                          > the DDR East Germany) but educated in Heidelberg (West Germany) -- the
                          > missing link was how he got from east to west, which, by the time
                          > Michael Arndt was old enough to be a university student, wasn't easy,
                          > what, with the infamous wall and other border tightenings that went on
                          > in the early 60s. ...
                          >
                          > It also says that he had both tried to enter Mt. Athos and had applied
                          > to Holy Trinity/St. Sergius Lavra seminary, but after a long wait, was
                          > rejected.
                          >
                          > I think the questions are honest; I don't think they necessarily must
                          > be seen as an attack on Vladyka Mark, though it may belie a primitive
                          > (fundamentalist) attitude (forgive my judging words!) about how
                          > attention to jurisdictional lines constitutes constitutes loyalty to
                          > the True Church.
                          >
                          > I personally think ROCOR is blessed to have such a well-educated
                          > leader, having seen much of the world beyond the familiar interior
                          > walls of his own house.
                          >
                          > Respectfully,
                          > Elizabeth
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "stefanvpavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@n...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > All your comments about Archbishop Mark are off base, for one thing
                          > he
                          > > did not study in Holy Trinity Saint Sergious in Moscow!, and all the
                          > > rest is off also!
                          > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vkozyreff" <vladimir.kozyreff@s...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > This refers to:
                          > > >
                          > > > An Interview with Archbishop Mark by Mark Smirov.
                          > > >
                          > > > Regarding this interview, here are a few things which are not
                          > clear
                          > > > to me:
                          > > >
                          > > > Why, as Vl Mark converted to orthodoxy in our Church, did he apply
                          > to
                          > > > become a monk in Mt Athos? Why did he apply to follow courses of
                          > > > theology in The Trinity St Sergius monastery, instead of studying
                          > in
                          > > > the Jordanville Trinity Monastery? Why did he not refer to his
                          > bishop
                          > > > for this matter? If he did, why would his bishop have send him
                          > there?
                          > > >
                          > > > Was Vl Mark not a mmber of the NTS movement? Why does he not
                          > allude
                          > > > to this in the interview?
                          > > >
                          > > > Being a citizen of Eastern Germany in 1969, how come he became a
                          > > > student in Heidelberg? In those days, East German students in
                          > general
                          > > > could not so easily get the blessing of the Stasi to study
                          > theology
                          > > > in Heidelberg.
                          > > >
                          > > > I am puzzled. Can anybody help me?
                          > > >
                          > > > In Christ,
                          > > >
                          > > > Vladimir Kozyreff
                        • vladimir kozyreff
                          Dear List, A concept which is often debated is the canonical territory . In his latest inteviw in
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 23, 2002
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                            Dear List,

                            A concept which is often debated is the "canonical territory". In his latest
                            inteviw in < Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark says:

                            - The concept of " canonical territory " is an innovation! This term never
                            earlier in Church existed, and it is better to not use it because it turns
                            the attention away from thre essential...

                            http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html

                            It seems in fact that the concept is not that new. The Church has always
                            been organised on a territorial basis. A diocese is a territory.

                            Below is a reference that documents this idea.

                            In Christ,

                            Vladimir Kozyreff


                            The Patriarchate of Moscow, as the local Church and in accordance with its
                            official founding ecclesiastical Acts, also has its canonical jurisdiction
                            with geographical boundaries and geographical restrictions, according once
                            again to the canonical teaching and ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church.

                            Its canonical jurisdiction - "the territory" - extends "to all Russia",
                            namely as noted also above, within the boundaries of the Russian dominion
                            and not beyond these.

                            http://www.orthodoxa.org/orthodoxie/droit%20canon/russianterritory.htm
                          • vladimir kozyreff
                            Dear List, In his June 5, 2002 interview to Nezavisimaya gazeta , Vl Mark says: - In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a further
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 23, 2002
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                              Dear List,

                              In his June 5, 2002 interview to "Nezavisimaya gazeta", Vl Mark says:

                              - "In the remote prospect there could be a form of coexistence, and a
                              further dialogue in the form which was described already by Patriarch Aleksy
                              II.

                              - In one of the interviews he gave, he recognised natural, that the ROCOR
                              part of the Russian Church has a life, features which were developed for 80
                              years, and nobody should bury them into oblivion.

                              - For example, among our parishioners there are a a lot of non-Russians. We
                              thus in many respects differ from the Russian parishes.

                              - Any model of a mutual recognition which gradually would pass in the form
                              of an autonomy is therefore necessary".

                              http://religion.ng.ru/people/2002-06-05/1_looking.html

                              I cannot understand Vl Mark's concept of "mutual recognition".

                              - If the MP will renounce sergianism, ecumenism etc. and convert, we will be
                              all part of the Russian Church and there would be no object for any "mutual
                              recognition". Our "recognition" is automatic for all that have converted,
                              without any declaration of any kind, in the same way that martyrs are
                              recognised as saints, automatically, without any canonisation.

                              - If the MP will not renounce sergianism, ecumenism etc., then there can be
                              no recognition whatsoever on our part. The Church recognises only those and
                              all those who follow Christ and His teaching, and make no concession to the
                              worldly powers.

                              - What is the autonomy Vl Mark is talking about? Did we not receive our
                              autonomy from Patriarch Tikhon? Is the MP not autonomous too (except its
                              links with the KGB)?

                              - Is there now no "form of coexistence"? Both the MP and the ROCOR do
                              coexist.

                              I have another proposal:

                              - If the MP does convert, we will be reunited with our Russian brothers and
                              sisters. We pray for it every day.

                              - Both the ROCOR and the present "MP" will cease to exist and there will be
                              only "the Russian Church".

                              - The believers that the ROCOR will leave behind her and that have no
                              particular relation to Russia (it seems that they have become many)will
                              found other Churches, named after the countries in which they live. These
                              Churches will eventually reunite with local "orthodox" when the latter do
                              convert, if there is no real local Church already. If there is one, there
                              will be no reason for them not to join them. The Russian Church will keep a
                              presence abroad, for the numerous Russian (or affiliated) population
                              disseminated world wide. Anybody will be welcome to pray in her churches.
                              Vl Mark will probably be part of the German Orthodox Church. Our hihghest
                              hierarch will be the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russias. May God allow this
                              to happen!

                              In God,

                              Vladimir Kozyreff
                            • joeswaydyn2000
                              ... hihghest ... allow this ... Why is it that the All-Russian Sobor appears to have been forgotten and replaced with dialogues ? No matter what position
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 24, 2002
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                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "vladimir kozyreff"
                                <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:

                                > Vl Mark will probably be part of the German Orthodox Church. Our
                                hihghest
                                > hierarch will be the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russias. May God
                                allow this
                                > to happen!

                                Why is it that the 'All-Russian Sobor' appears to have been forgotten
                                and replaced with 'dialogues'? No matter what position you take
                                toward the MP (mine is negative) I thought the Russian Church
                                situation would be resolved when the whole Russian Church is
                                represented. Just a thought.
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