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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Christian Education website

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  • catherine elaine sullivan
    Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part of Moms - as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the club was meant
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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      Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part of "Moms"-
      as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the club was meant
      for administrators and teachers in church school programs,and of course,
      parents interested in education. Do you think there is really some interest
      out there- perhaps just my timing was off? I left it up for several months, and
      then closed it up for lack of interest. What do you think- should I try again?

      =====
      Catherine

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    • thestapletonfamily
      ... of Moms - ... club was meant ... course, ... interest ... months, and ... I try again? ... Dear in Christ Catherine, My wife and I would be interested in
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
        wrote:
        > Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part
        of "Moms"-
        > as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the
        club was meant
        > for administrators and teachers in church school programs,and of
        course,
        > parents interested in education. Do you think there is really some
        interest
        > out there- perhaps just my timing was off? I left it up for several
        months, and
        > then closed it up for lack of interest. What do you think- should
        I try again?
        >
        > =====
        > Catherine
        >
        > __________________________________________________
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        > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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        Dear in Christ Catherine,
        My wife and I would be interested in gaining more information about
        Christian Education. We home school our three boys and are always
        looking for and needing more information on teaching our kids. If
        there isnt an interest in seting up a christian education site maybe
        we could still correspond some.
        A struggling soul
        Ambrose Stapleton
      • catherine elaine sullivan
        Vladimir- I don t suppose anyone DOESN T want unity. However, what many of us DON T want is unity at any price. During WW II, many Germans wanted so badly to
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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          Vladimir- I don't suppose anyone DOESN'T want unity. However, what many of us
          DON'T want is unity at any price. During WW II, many Germans wanted so badly
          to remain loyal Germans- in fact one of the Nazi themes was the UNITY of all
          Germans everywhere. Because of this, many of them made great moral
          compromises, which they have had to answer to God for. We just don't want that
          to happen to us in the name of unity- that we have to compromise our faith for
          it. I really do not feel, for example,that Roman Catholics will ever give up
          their Pope just in order to unite with us, not do I think he would settle for
          simply being the "bishop of Rome, first among equals." I am afraid it would
          ultimately be the Orthodox who would make the compromises. If we are the Truth
          and we wish to unite with others,then it can only be by means of their
          accepting the Truth of Orthodoxy. Any less,and we are nolonger the Orthodox
          Church- we are something else.

          =====
          Catherine

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        • catherine elaine sullivan
          That would be fine- I ll give it one more shot, and if not, we can certainly do that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we ll see what happens!
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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            That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can certainly do
            that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see what happens!

            flicka68@...

            =====
            Catherine

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          • vkozyreff
            The actions that patriarch Tikhon took or did not take after he pronounced his anathema do not change in any way the fact of the anathema, its appropriateness
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 9, 2002
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              The actions that patriarch Tikhon took or did not take after he
              pronounced his anathema do not change in any way the fact of the
              anathema, its appropriateness and the fact that Sergianism is both
              anathema and heretical.

              We are judging a proposal here, not a person. In doing so, we are
              defending Christ's Truth, which is the duty of any Christian. In
              condemning Sergianism, as the new martyrs did, we do not even condemn
              Met Sergius himself. He probably did commit a grave sin, but who am
              I, sinner to judge him? As I said before, maybe God has forgiven him
              already. It nevertheless remains true that Sergianism is sin and
              heretical. A heresy is a heresy by nature, not by authorship.

              We should never forget the duty that Christ has given us to exert our
              judgement ("You will recognise them by their fruits"). The principle
              that we will be judged as we have judged has nothing to do with this.
              If I should be heretical, I hope my orthodox brothers will let me
              know. I would be grateful if they helped me out of my error.

              This being said, the opinion that I have about reunion with the MP is
              mine precisely because I think it is that of the Church.

              I do not agree with the proposal: "this is for our bishops to decide
              and not you and other people with their various personal opinions
              which do not reflect the Church" for the following reasons:

              1. I never said that I would decide anything about this matter.
              2. I may however have an opinion about this and I may discuss it
              with a bishop and with you. The bishop might be interested in hearing
              what I have to say, either to take it into account or to correct me.
              Remember, bishops are not infallible and laymen are members of the
              Church. It would be abnormal that bishops would take decisions that
              would be contrary to the opinion of their flock who, by definition,
              express the opinion of the Church too.
              3. My opinions about the Church always reflect those of the
              Church. I adopt as opinion for myself what I perceive as being the
              opinion of the Church. My research consists in finding out what the
              opinion of the Church is, to adopt it for myself. Discussions come
              about when the opinion of the Church is unclear. This happens. The
              voice of the laymen may be a signal for the Church that She should be
              clearer.
              What happens also, as you know, is that different bishops express
              different opinions about a given subject. Synods have erred in the
              past, as we all know. In conclusion, bishops and laymen should be in
              close unity and absence thereof is always a cause for concern, not a
              fact to be ignored.

              In Christ,

              VK


              In God,

              VK
              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Robert Kearney <niconar20@y...> wrote:
              > As I recall, did not Patriarch Tikhon also collaborate
              > with the Soviet authorities after he was released from
              > prison in 1923? Did not he recognize the treaty of
              > Brest Lovak and called upon the people to support the
              > Soviet government? Would not this actions have also
              > placed this holy man under his own anathema? Prehaps
              > this are things that the people who constantly shout
              > about this particular event should take time out to
              > think about what they are saying instead of just
              > shouting words out in judgment?
              > Remeber, Christ said, "Treat others the way that you
              > would want to be treated." THe same judgment that you
              > give to others shall be given to you in a similar
              > manner based on your own life. So let us have an end
              > to this legalistic pharisee like behavior and begin to
              > try to imitate Christ rather then those who stoned
              > him. Prehaps this is not the best time to reunite with
              > MP, but this is for our bishops to decide and not you
              > and other people with their various personal opinions
              > which do not reflect the Church.
              >
              > In Christ N. R. Kearney
              > (Who supports Metropolitan Lavr and the true Synod of
              > ROCOR).
              > --- vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Father Seraphim,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin,
              > > but not a
              > > heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox
              > > history".
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you.
              > > First, let us
              > > distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop
              > > Sergius's teaching
              > > in deeds.
              > >
              > > 2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics
              > > did save the
              > > Church.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Both of them are heretical.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised
              > > those who
              > > collaborated with the atheist government. To
              > > anathematise a conduct
              > > is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching
              > > of the Church,
              > > that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A
              > > conduct that is
              > > contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment
              > > does collaborate
              > > with the communist government any longer. We are
              > > told that this is a
              > > thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the
              > > teaching that
              > > Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is
              > > presently actively
              > > promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is
              > > tolerated as not
              > > heretical by those who are tired to stand for the
              > > Truth or are
              > > seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of
              > > the Truth. Claiming
              > > that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical
              > > because:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the
              > > Church with the
              > > Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just
              > > what the Patriarch
              > > had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot
              > > save the Church.
              > > Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
              > > You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin.
              > > Claiming the
              > > opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has
              > > saved the Church
              > > is heretical too.
              > > In general, claiming that an action has saved the
              > > Church means either
              > > that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church
              > > in spite of it
              > > not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
              > > counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the
              > > Church pleased God
              > > is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the
              > > Church by an
              > > action that displeased God is heretical too.
              > >
              > >
              > > It is important to know that heresies are not only
              > > proposals that
              > > explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed.
              > > There are other
              > > heresies than those that have been declared heresies
              > > by the seven
              > > Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret.
              > > The heresies that
              > > we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the
              > > past ones. Now, we
              > > can see it.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most
              > > terrible dangers for
              > > our Church. Everything in this world invites us to
              > > unite with
              > > schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we
              > > all "pray the
              > > same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the
              > > Pope of Rome that
              > > the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both
              > > based on tradition.
              > > As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks
              > > about unity will
              > > start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget
              > > the heretical
              > > nature of the schisms that have separated most of
              > > mankind from
              > > orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
              > > heresy.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > In Christ, and begging your prayers
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > VK
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim
              > > Holland" <seraphim@o...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > The Society for Orthodox Truth said:
              > > > > Fr. Seraphim was speaking of a different
              > > situation, he was
              > > speaking of,
              > > > > if the ROCOR has nothing to say, then all the
              > > systems people in
              > > the
              > > > > world can't help.
              > > >
              > > > I am not the webmaster, and have not been since
              > > the Sobor. I am
              > > told that
              > > > there is an ukaz, but have not seen one. I was
              > > only told on the
              > > telephone.
              > > >
              > > > I stand by my criticism of our church.
              > > >
              > > > I scratched and clawed for years, getting
              > > information, stories, even
              > > > BEGGING for letters to be written (such as after
              > > 911). We are so
              > > entrenched
              > > > and fearful of the implications of discussion with
              > > the MP that we
              > > are
              > > > paralyzed. We hurl jargon, and invent heresies to
              > > oppose
              > > (Sergianism is a
              > > > sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not
              > > unlike other
              > > occurrences
              > > > in Orthodox history).
              > > >
              > > > I am quite despondent about our church's lack of
              > > vision, activity,
              > > > information dissemination (see the very top of
              > > this letter),
              > > courage and
              > > > compassion (if we care about Russia, we should be
              > > the "big brother"
              > > and be
              > > > brotherly and conciliatory (and no, this does not
              > > mean immediate
              > > union, or
              > > > giving up our principles), instead, we are more
              > > like the "elder
              > > son").
              > > >
              > > > I was involved in investigating, upon the orders
              > > of my hierarchy
              > > (after
              > > > MANY calls and emails from me and many others)
              > > serious perversion
              > > in our
              > > > church. My report was not acted on. Another one
              > > preceding mine was
              > > not
              > > > acted on. When the guy cut and ran (no duh, we did
              > > not bother to
              > > address
              > > > the situation early, and later, it was clear to me
              > > that
              > === message truncated ===
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
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            • vkozyreff
              1. I do not say that the Latino Catholics cannot name other Churches that are even less traditional than theirs. I just dispute the idea that the Orthodox
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 9, 2002
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                1. I do not say that the Latino Catholics cannot name
                other "Churches" that are even less traditional than theirs. I just
                dispute the idea that the Orthodox Church is linked to the Latino
                Catholics by the fact that they are both traditional. Their
                relationship with Tradition is precisely what separates them.
                Protestant grapefruit juice is irrelevant here. As you know, the
                Latino-Catholics have innovated and are constantly doing so. One of
                their last innovations is that the sin (and thus the Redemption)
                should not be at the centre of the faith any longer. Innovation is
                opposed to tradition. If I innovate, accusing others of innovating
                even more does not change the fact that I innovate myself.
                2. The concern of Orthodox believers regarding a possible union
                with the Latino Catholics is not totally unfounded, as history has
                shown. Twice, the patriarch of Constantinople has declared union with
                Rome. The faithful have rersisted against their bishops and have
                saved orthodoxy. Uniates do exist. The anathema against the Latino
                Catholics has been abrogated recently by the patriarch of
                Constantinople. Among our clergy and our believers, many continue to
                speak about the "reunion of the Church", as though the heretics were
                still part of the Church. Contrarily to what you seem to imply, I
                think that the danger is real. You say yourself that you consider the
                filioque matter as unimportant.
                3. As you know, many Orthodox have turned themselves to the
                Latino-Catholics already. Ecumenism is more aggressive than ever and
                sympathy for it is growing within our ranks. Many orthodox are afraid
                that tey might remain a minority compared to the Latino Catholics and
                Orthodox supporters of ecumenism. How can you blame the faithful for
                being vigilant and concerned?

                In Christ,

                VK
                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
                > Unfortunately, some Orthodox faithful are beginning to resemble
                tabloid
                > newspapers with their eye-catching headlines: "ROCA TO UNITE WITH
                THE MP!",
                > "IMMINENT UNITY WITH MOSCOW". Whatever will be next??? Well, now we
                know.
                > "MP TO UNITE WITH ROME!" I really wish that people would stop
                taking the
                > barest of a thread of fact/truth/information and spinning it into
                the worst
                > possible scenario. After leaving the Mitropolia almost 20 years ago
                and
                > joining the ROCA, already at that time there were people/parishes
                leaving,
                > due to the "ROCA GOING ECCUMENICAL!" I can't say that the ROCA is
                anymore
                > ecumenical now then under Vladyka Philaret.
                >
                > How could Moscow could "unite" with Rome? Any talks about serious
                unity
                > would take an act of ALL of the local Orthodox Churches meeting AND
                > agreeing to this. The chances of that happening are almost nil --
                the local
                > Churches can't even agree on such germane issues as the Calendar,
                how to
                > treat the uncanonical situation of multiple bishops on the same
                territory
                > [which means just about any non-historically Orthodox country, such
                as the
                > US, Australia, UK, Franc etc.], Mitropolia autocephaly, wether
                the
                > Ukriane and Estonia are MP or EP territory. Albeit, there are bi-
                lateral
                > commissions between Rome and the MP, the EP etc but what exactly
                have they
                > accomplished in concrete terms?
                >
                > What is exactly the problem if Patriarch Alexis saying that "the
                Catholic
                > Church is traditional?" Considering the female ministers, married
                bishops,
                > grape juice sacrament that exists in the Protestant churches, well
                the
                > Catholic church does seem "traditional."
                >
                > On a related note of unity, I recall reading in the OCA newspaper
                some time
                > ago about a movement in the 19th Century for the Episcopal Church
                in the US
                > to be accepted into the Russian Orthodox Church. Does anyone know
                anything
                > about this?
                >
                > Hristofor
                >
                >
                >
                > >niconar20@y... writes:
                > > > Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that the
                orthodox
                > > and the
                > > > "catholic" Church are both based on tradition. As soon as
                the "catholic
                > > > proselytism" ends, talks about unity will start, he said. Look
                at those
                > > > orthodox who forget the heretical nature of the schisms that
                have
                > > separated
                > > > most of mankind from orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them
                in the
                > > > heresy.
                > >
                > >Hmmm.... I guess Patriarch Alexis is a bit brighter than your
                average
                > >emigre, because he is quite correct. Both churches are based on
                tradition,
                > >and unity is a desirable goal. I strngly suspect that the
                reciprocal
                > >excommunications had more to do with the sacking of Constantinople
                than with
                > >dogmatic violations. As "holier than though" as we now pretend to
                be, fact
                > >is that the Orthodox Church lived with the filioque for several
                hundred years
                > >without much of a problem with it, and that to this day a large
                number of
                > >Catholics and Orthodox still remain completely clueless as to what
                this
                > >really means. That other big stumbling block, papal
                infallibility, is also
                > >not that big. Even Metropolitan Vitaly affected this from time to
                time. And
                > >very few Orthodox understand that the doctrine/dogma can only be
                invoked ex
                > >cathedra and has only been invoked a couple of times. Why not
                ultimate
                > >unity? That's what Christ wanted.
                > >
                > >Vladimir Hindrichs
                > >who prays for the Unity of Christ's Church
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • ajj66046
                Dear Catherine, My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant with
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 11, 2002
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                  Dear Catherine,

                  My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been
                  starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant
                  with our desire to raise up our children as Orthodox Christians.
                  Please let us know how we might benefit from your experience (either
                  by personal correspondence or in a discussion group setting). We
                  intend to follow a 'Classical Education' model at present adapted
                  from 'The Well-Trained Mind' curriculum, however, it has a pretty
                  protestant/western-european bias which we will adjust when we get
                  into teaching our daughter history.

                  Thank you for your efforts,
                  Anthony Jacobs

                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can
                  certainly do
                  > that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see
                  what happens!
                  >
                  > flicka68@y...
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Catherine
                • Jean-Claude
                  This is my first post on this site. I have been home schooling my son since he was five. He will be entering the seminary in about one or two years. I don t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 11, 2002
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                    This is my first post on this site. I have been home schooling my son since he was five. He will be entering the seminary in about one or two years. I don't know what state you live in but I am in Ohio and here I must comply with certain subjects buy my choice of texts is pretty good. As far as my Orthodox training or classes. I use a standard text concerning the Orthodox faith. He is currently studying the Stichera (please excuse spelling) and the order of services.

                    Jean-Claude
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: ajj66046
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:29 PM
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Christian Education website


                    Dear Catherine,

                    My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been
                    starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant
                    with our desire to raise up our children as Orthodox Christians.
                    Please let us know how we might benefit from your experience (either
                    by personal correspondence or in a discussion group setting). We
                    intend to follow a 'Classical Education' model at present adapted
                    from 'The Well-Trained Mind' curriculum, however, it has a pretty
                    protestant/western-european bias which we will adjust when we get
                    into teaching our daughter history.

                    Thank you for your efforts,
                    Anthony Jacobs

                    --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can
                    certainly do
                    > that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see
                    what happens!
                    >
                    > flicka68@y...
                    >
                    > =====
                    > Catherine



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • catherine elaine sullivan
                    It is a little confusing to me- isn t it clear to Orthodox that Latino Catholics and others are under the jurisdiction of the Pope and we are not, and never
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 12, 2002
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                      It is a little confusing to me- isn't it clear to Orthodox that Latino
                      Catholics and others are under the jurisdiction of the Pope and we are not, and
                      never have been? Why would they wish to accept this? It is the same reason I
                      do not believe there will ever be full eccumenism- the Pope is not about to
                      give up his office!

                      =====
                      Catherine

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                    • catherine elaine sullivan
                      If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the only
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 12, 2002
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                        If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group
                        called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the
                        only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will have more, I
                        hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired also. After
                        you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.

                        =====
                        Catherine

                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Hristofor
                        Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it the one called OrthodoxClassicalHS? hristofor.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 13, 2002
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                          Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it the one
                          called OrthodoxClassicalHS?

                          hristofor.

                          At 12:26 PM 2/12/2002, you wrote:
                          >If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group
                          >called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the
                          >only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will have more, I
                          >hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired also. After
                          >you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.
                          >
                          >=====
                          >Catherine
                          >
                          >__________________________________________________
                          >Do You Yahoo!?
                          >Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                          >http://greetings.yahoo.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • ajj66046
                          Hristofor, I had the same problem finding it, but you can access the page by typing (or following this link if it works):
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 14, 2002
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                            Hristofor,

                            I had the same problem finding it, but you can access the page by
                            typing (or following this link if it works):

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodoxeducation/

                            At present Catherine and I are the only members, but I hope there
                            will be more.

                            Anthony

                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
                            > Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it
                            the one
                            > called OrthodoxClassicalHS?
                            >
                            > hristofor.
                            >
                            > At 12:26 PM 2/12/2002, you wrote:
                            > >If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started
                            a group
                            > >called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So
                            far, I am the
                            > >only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will
                            have more, I
                            > >hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired
                            also. After
                            > >you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.
                            > >
                            > >=====
                            > >Catherine
                            > >
                            > >__________________________________________________
                            > >Do You Yahoo!?
                            > >Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                            > >http://greetings.yahoo.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • catherine elaine sullivan
                            No, it s in Yahoo groups (not the old clubs) under Orthodox Christian Education, but pops up under my groups as Orthoeduc or something like that. =====
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 15, 2002
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                              No, it's in Yahoo groups (not the old clubs) under Orthodox Christian
                              Education, but pops up under "my groups" as Orthoeduc or something like that.

                              =====
                              Catherine

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