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Re: The lowly ROCOR website - nothing to say

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  • vkozyreff
    Dear Father Seraphim, You write: Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history . Let me
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 4, 2002
      Dear Father Seraphim,



      You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin, but not a
      heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox history".



      Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you. First, let us
      distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":



      1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop Sergius's teaching
      in deeds.

      2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics did save the
      Church.



      Both of them are heretical.



      Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised those who
      collaborated with the atheist government. To anathematise a conduct
      is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching of the Church,
      that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A conduct that is
      contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.



      (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment does collaborate
      with the communist government any longer. We are told that this is a
      thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the teaching that
      Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is presently actively
      promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is tolerated as not
      heretical by those who are tired to stand for the Truth or are
      seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of the Truth. Claiming
      that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical because:



      Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the Church with the
      Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just what the Patriarch
      had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot save the Church.
      Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
      You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin. Claiming the
      opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has saved the Church
      is heretical too.
      In general, claiming that an action has saved the Church means either
      that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church in spite of it
      not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
      counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the Church pleased God
      is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the Church by an
      action that displeased God is heretical too.


      It is important to know that heresies are not only proposals that
      explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed. There are other
      heresies than those that have been declared heresies by the seven
      Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret. The heresies that
      we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the past ones. Now, we
      can see it.



      Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most terrible dangers for
      our Church. Everything in this world invites us to unite with
      schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we all "pray the
      same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that
      the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both based on tradition.
      As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks about unity will
      start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget the heretical
      nature of the schisms that have separated most of mankind from
      orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the heresy.



      In Christ, and begging your prayers



      VK









      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim Holland" <seraphim@o...>
      wrote:
      > The Society for Orthodox Truth said:
      > > Fr. Seraphim was speaking of a different situation, he was
      speaking of,
      > > if the ROCOR has nothing to say, then all the systems people in
      the
      > > world can't help.
      >
      > I am not the webmaster, and have not been since the Sobor. I am
      told that
      > there is an ukaz, but have not seen one. I was only told on the
      telephone.
      >
      > I stand by my criticism of our church.
      >
      > I scratched and clawed for years, getting information, stories, even
      > BEGGING for letters to be written (such as after 911). We are so
      entrenched
      > and fearful of the implications of discussion with the MP that we
      are
      > paralyzed. We hurl jargon, and invent heresies to oppose
      (Sergianism is a
      > sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not unlike other
      occurrences
      > in Orthodox history).
      >
      > I am quite despondent about our church's lack of vision, activity,
      > information dissemination (see the very top of this letter),
      courage and
      > compassion (if we care about Russia, we should be the "big brother"
      and be
      > brotherly and conciliatory (and no, this does not mean immediate
      union, or
      > giving up our principles), instead, we are more like the "elder
      son").
      >
      > I was involved in investigating, upon the orders of my hierarchy
      (after
      > MANY calls and emails from me and many others) serious perversion
      in our
      > church. My report was not acted on. Another one preceding mine was
      not
      > acted on. When the guy cut and ran (no duh, we did not bother to
      address
      > the situation early, and later, it was clear to me that we were
      waiting for
      > the inevitable), we washed our hands with relief. I BEGGED for
      archpastoral
      > HANDS ON intervention, to talk face to face with the people who had
      been
      > spiritually harmed, and I got excuses. I offered to be the driver
      and guide
      > to all the places. Excuses.
      >
      > If we cannot show compassion for our flock, then all the Sobor
      letters,
      > infrequent as they are (which are good, in and of themselves) are
      not
      > enough.
      >
      > I have a large problem with perspective concerning our church, and
      > her "noble" stand regarding the MP, because I have seen in the
      specific
      > situations, in the trenches that our church had no spine, and no
      heart. I
      > see the results of sexual predation every day, as I have adopted 2
      abused
      > children. It is real ugly. I know that there are others who are
      getting no
      > help, or even any indication that we (as a hierarch, I sure showed
      I cared,
      > but I am just a foot soldier) CARED.
      >
      > If we have no heart, we have nothing to say.
      >
      > I have all the skills needed to do a web page right, and am doing
      some
      > things on my church's web page (http://www.orthodox.net)that I do
      not
      > believe are being done anywhere else. I do not have the skills
      needed to
      > create heart.
      >
      > > But without constructive criticism, we would not be where we are
      in
      > > life as a society.
      > >
      > > If you settle for less, then why even begin??
      > >
      > > But people with large pride, cannot take constructive criticism..
      > >
      > > The ROCOR priests, at least some of them, can take criticism
      > > constructively, because they try to strive to be the best priest
      they
      > > can for their flock.. Archbishop Andrei of Novo-Diveevo was a good
      > > example.
      > >
      > > Try and do your best, and when your best isn't good enough, then
      pass
      > > it on to someone who's best in this particular field is better
      than
      > > what you can accomplish.
      > >
      > > George is right..... Bring someone else in. Who can do a better
      job.
      > > I heard Patrick Barnes' name brought up. Patrick Barnes is a good
      > > example, and he loves to help the Church.. He's a good man, take
      a
      > > look at the website he did for himself :
      http://www.orthodoxinfo.com
      > >
      > > Nektarius
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "musqg" <malloy.2@o...>
      > > To: <orthodox-synod@y...>
      > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:40 PM
      > > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The lowly Rocor website
      > >
      > >
      > >> --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim Holland"
      <seraphim@o...>
      > >> wrote:
      > >> > If we have nothing to say (except for a few letters hurled out
      of
      > >> the silence), all the systems people in the world cannot help.
      > >>
      > >> I'm with Father Serahim on this one.
      > >>
      > >> In my own words, I would say if you can't say anything nice about
      > >> someone's efforts, why are you saying anything?
      > >>
      > >> Reader Michael Malloy
      > >> Columbus Ohio
    • Robert Kearney
      As I recall, did not Patriarch Tikhon also collaborate with the Soviet authorities after he was released from prison in 1923? Did not he recognize the treaty
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 4, 2002
        As I recall, did not Patriarch Tikhon also collaborate
        with the Soviet authorities after he was released from
        prison in 1923? Did not he recognize the treaty of
        Brest Lovak and called upon the people to support the
        Soviet government? Would not this actions have also
        placed this holy man under his own anathema? Prehaps
        this are things that the people who constantly shout
        about this particular event should take time out to
        think about what they are saying instead of just
        shouting words out in judgment?
        Remeber, Christ said, "Treat others the way that you
        would want to be treated." THe same judgment that you
        give to others shall be given to you in a similar
        manner based on your own life. So let us have an end
        to this legalistic pharisee like behavior and begin to
        try to imitate Christ rather then those who stoned
        him. Prehaps this is not the best time to reunite with
        MP, but this is for our bishops to decide and not you
        and other people with their various personal opinions
        which do not reflect the Church.

        In Christ N. R. Kearney
        (Who supports Metropolitan Lavr and the true Synod of
        ROCOR).
        --- vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Father Seraphim,
        >
        >
        >
        > You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin,
        > but not a
        > heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox
        > history".
        >
        >
        >
        > Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you.
        > First, let us
        > distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":
        >
        >
        >
        > 1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop
        > Sergius's teaching
        > in deeds.
        >
        > 2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics
        > did save the
        > Church.
        >
        >
        >
        > Both of them are heretical.
        >
        >
        >
        > Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised
        > those who
        > collaborated with the atheist government. To
        > anathematise a conduct
        > is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching
        > of the Church,
        > that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A
        > conduct that is
        > contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.
        >
        >
        >
        > (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment
        > does collaborate
        > with the communist government any longer. We are
        > told that this is a
        > thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the
        > teaching that
        > Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is
        > presently actively
        > promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is
        > tolerated as not
        > heretical by those who are tired to stand for the
        > Truth or are
        > seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of
        > the Truth. Claiming
        > that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical
        > because:
        >
        >
        >
        > Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the
        > Church with the
        > Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just
        > what the Patriarch
        > had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot
        > save the Church.
        > Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
        > You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin.
        > Claiming the
        > opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has
        > saved the Church
        > is heretical too.
        > In general, claiming that an action has saved the
        > Church means either
        > that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church
        > in spite of it
        > not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
        > counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the
        > Church pleased God
        > is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the
        > Church by an
        > action that displeased God is heretical too.
        >
        >
        > It is important to know that heresies are not only
        > proposals that
        > explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed.
        > There are other
        > heresies than those that have been declared heresies
        > by the seven
        > Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret.
        > The heresies that
        > we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the
        > past ones. Now, we
        > can see it.
        >
        >
        >
        > Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most
        > terrible dangers for
        > our Church. Everything in this world invites us to
        > unite with
        > schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we
        > all "pray the
        > same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the
        > Pope of Rome that
        > the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both
        > based on tradition.
        > As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks
        > about unity will
        > start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget
        > the heretical
        > nature of the schisms that have separated most of
        > mankind from
        > orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
        > heresy.
        >
        >
        >
        > In Christ, and begging your prayers
        >
        >
        >
        > VK
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim
        > Holland" <seraphim@o...>
        > wrote:
        > > The Society for Orthodox Truth said:
        > > > Fr. Seraphim was speaking of a different
        > situation, he was
        > speaking of,
        > > > if the ROCOR has nothing to say, then all the
        > systems people in
        > the
        > > > world can't help.
        > >
        > > I am not the webmaster, and have not been since
        > the Sobor. I am
        > told that
        > > there is an ukaz, but have not seen one. I was
        > only told on the
        > telephone.
        > >
        > > I stand by my criticism of our church.
        > >
        > > I scratched and clawed for years, getting
        > information, stories, even
        > > BEGGING for letters to be written (such as after
        > 911). We are so
        > entrenched
        > > and fearful of the implications of discussion with
        > the MP that we
        > are
        > > paralyzed. We hurl jargon, and invent heresies to
        > oppose
        > (Sergianism is a
        > > sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not
        > unlike other
        > occurrences
        > > in Orthodox history).
        > >
        > > I am quite despondent about our church's lack of
        > vision, activity,
        > > information dissemination (see the very top of
        > this letter),
        > courage and
        > > compassion (if we care about Russia, we should be
        > the "big brother"
        > and be
        > > brotherly and conciliatory (and no, this does not
        > mean immediate
        > union, or
        > > giving up our principles), instead, we are more
        > like the "elder
        > son").
        > >
        > > I was involved in investigating, upon the orders
        > of my hierarchy
        > (after
        > > MANY calls and emails from me and many others)
        > serious perversion
        > in our
        > > church. My report was not acted on. Another one
        > preceding mine was
        > not
        > > acted on. When the guy cut and ran (no duh, we did
        > not bother to
        > address
        > > the situation early, and later, it was clear to me
        > that
        === message truncated ===


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      • antiquariu@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/4/2002 9:02:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hmmm.... I guess Patriarch Alexis is a bit brighter than your average emigre, because he is
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 4, 2002
          In a message dated 2/4/2002 9:02:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          niconar20@... writes:


          > Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that the orthodox and the
          > "catholic" Church are both based on tradition. As soon as the "catholic
          > proselytism" ends, talks about unity will start, he said. Look at those
          > orthodox who forget the heretical nature of the schisms that have separated
          > most of
          > mankind from orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
          > heresy.


          Hmmm.... I guess Patriarch Alexis is a bit brighter than your average
          emigre, because he is quite correct. Both churches are based on tradition,
          and unity is a desirable goal. I strngly suspect that the reciprocal
          excommunications had more to do with the sacking of Constantinople than with
          dogmatic violations. As "holier than though" as we now pretend to be, fact
          is that the Orthodox Church lived with the filioque for several hundred years
          without much of a problem with it, and that to this day a large number of
          Catholics and Orthodox still remain completely clueless as to what this
          really means. That other big stumbling block, papal infallibility, is also
          not that big. Even Metropolitan Vitaly affected this from time to time. And
          very few Orthodox understand that the doctrine/dogma can only be invoked ex
          cathedra and has only been invoked a couple of times. Why not ultimate
          unity? That's what Christ wanted.

          Vladimir Hindrichs
          who prays for the Unity of Christ's Church






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hristofor
          Unfortunately, some Orthodox faithful are beginning to resemble tabloid newspapers with their eye-catching headlines: ROCA TO UNITE WITH THE MP! , IMMINENT
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 5, 2002
            Unfortunately, some Orthodox faithful are beginning to resemble tabloid
            newspapers with their eye-catching headlines: "ROCA TO UNITE WITH THE MP!",
            "IMMINENT UNITY WITH MOSCOW". Whatever will be next??? Well, now we know.
            "MP TO UNITE WITH ROME!" I really wish that people would stop taking the
            barest of a thread of fact/truth/information and spinning it into the worst
            possible scenario. After leaving the Mitropolia almost 20 years ago and
            joining the ROCA, already at that time there were people/parishes leaving,
            due to the "ROCA GOING ECCUMENICAL!" I can't say that the ROCA is anymore
            ecumenical now then under Vladyka Philaret.

            How could Moscow could "unite" with Rome? Any talks about serious unity
            would take an act of ALL of the local Orthodox Churches meeting AND
            agreeing to this. The chances of that happening are almost nil -- the local
            Churches can't even agree on such germane issues as the Calendar, how to
            treat the uncanonical situation of multiple bishops on the same territory
            [which means just about any non-historically Orthodox country, such as the
            US, Australia, UK, Franc etc.], Mitropolia autocephaly, wether the
            Ukriane and Estonia are MP or EP territory. Albeit, there are bi-lateral
            commissions between Rome and the MP, the EP etc but what exactly have they
            accomplished in concrete terms?

            What is exactly the problem if Patriarch Alexis saying that "the Catholic
            Church is traditional?" Considering the female ministers, married bishops,
            grape juice sacrament that exists in the Protestant churches, well the
            Catholic church does seem "traditional."

            On a related note of unity, I recall reading in the OCA newspaper some time
            ago about a movement in the 19th Century for the Episcopal Church in the US
            to be accepted into the Russian Orthodox Church. Does anyone know anything
            about this?

            Hristofor



            >niconar20@... writes:
            > > Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that the orthodox
            > and the
            > > "catholic" Church are both based on tradition. As soon as the "catholic
            > > proselytism" ends, talks about unity will start, he said. Look at those
            > > orthodox who forget the heretical nature of the schisms that have
            > separated
            > > most of mankind from orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
            > > heresy.
            >
            >Hmmm.... I guess Patriarch Alexis is a bit brighter than your average
            >emigre, because he is quite correct. Both churches are based on tradition,
            >and unity is a desirable goal. I strngly suspect that the reciprocal
            >excommunications had more to do with the sacking of Constantinople than with
            >dogmatic violations. As "holier than though" as we now pretend to be, fact
            >is that the Orthodox Church lived with the filioque for several hundred years
            >without much of a problem with it, and that to this day a large number of
            >Catholics and Orthodox still remain completely clueless as to what this
            >really means. That other big stumbling block, papal infallibility, is also
            >not that big. Even Metropolitan Vitaly affected this from time to time. And
            >very few Orthodox understand that the doctrine/dogma can only be invoked ex
            >cathedra and has only been invoked a couple of times. Why not ultimate
            >unity? That's what Christ wanted.
            >
            >Vladimir Hindrichs
            >who prays for the Unity of Christ's Church
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • mwoerl
            ... You would think so . . . however, the same is true of the Calendar change and involvement with ecumenism, and we see that these preconditions were
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 5, 2002
              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:

              >
              > How could Moscow could "unite" with Rome? Any talks about serious unity
              > would take an act of ALL of the local Orthodox Churches meeting AND
              > agreeing to this.

              You would think so . . . however, the same is true of the Calendar
              change and involvement with ecumenism, and we see that these
              'preconditions' were totally ignored concerning those issues . . .
              Michael Woerl
            • catherine elaine sullivan
              Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part of Moms - as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the club was meant
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
                Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part of "Moms"-
                as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the club was meant
                for administrators and teachers in church school programs,and of course,
                parents interested in education. Do you think there is really some interest
                out there- perhaps just my timing was off? I left it up for several months, and
                then closed it up for lack of interest. What do you think- should I try again?

                =====
                Catherine

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              • thestapletonfamily
                ... of Moms - ... club was meant ... course, ... interest ... months, and ... I try again? ... Dear in Christ Catherine, My wife and I would be interested in
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Sad, but true. Perhaps there is more interest out there on the part
                  of "Moms"-
                  > as I am not one, my viewpoint was more that of educator, and the
                  club was meant
                  > for administrators and teachers in church school programs,and of
                  course,
                  > parents interested in education. Do you think there is really some
                  interest
                  > out there- perhaps just my timing was off? I left it up for several
                  months, and
                  > then closed it up for lack of interest. What do you think- should
                  I try again?
                  >
                  > =====
                  > Catherine
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                  > http://greetings.yahoo.com

                  Dear in Christ Catherine,
                  My wife and I would be interested in gaining more information about
                  Christian Education. We home school our three boys and are always
                  looking for and needing more information on teaching our kids. If
                  there isnt an interest in seting up a christian education site maybe
                  we could still correspond some.
                  A struggling soul
                  Ambrose Stapleton
                • catherine elaine sullivan
                  Vladimir- I don t suppose anyone DOESN T want unity. However, what many of us DON T want is unity at any price. During WW II, many Germans wanted so badly to
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
                    Vladimir- I don't suppose anyone DOESN'T want unity. However, what many of us
                    DON'T want is unity at any price. During WW II, many Germans wanted so badly
                    to remain loyal Germans- in fact one of the Nazi themes was the UNITY of all
                    Germans everywhere. Because of this, many of them made great moral
                    compromises, which they have had to answer to God for. We just don't want that
                    to happen to us in the name of unity- that we have to compromise our faith for
                    it. I really do not feel, for example,that Roman Catholics will ever give up
                    their Pope just in order to unite with us, not do I think he would settle for
                    simply being the "bishop of Rome, first among equals." I am afraid it would
                    ultimately be the Orthodox who would make the compromises. If we are the Truth
                    and we wish to unite with others,then it can only be by means of their
                    accepting the Truth of Orthodoxy. Any less,and we are nolonger the Orthodox
                    Church- we are something else.

                    =====
                    Catherine

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                  • catherine elaine sullivan
                    That would be fine- I ll give it one more shot, and if not, we can certainly do that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we ll see what happens!
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
                      That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can certainly do
                      that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see what happens!

                      flicka68@...

                      =====
                      Catherine

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                    • vkozyreff
                      The actions that patriarch Tikhon took or did not take after he pronounced his anathema do not change in any way the fact of the anathema, its appropriateness
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 9, 2002
                        The actions that patriarch Tikhon took or did not take after he
                        pronounced his anathema do not change in any way the fact of the
                        anathema, its appropriateness and the fact that Sergianism is both
                        anathema and heretical.

                        We are judging a proposal here, not a person. In doing so, we are
                        defending Christ's Truth, which is the duty of any Christian. In
                        condemning Sergianism, as the new martyrs did, we do not even condemn
                        Met Sergius himself. He probably did commit a grave sin, but who am
                        I, sinner to judge him? As I said before, maybe God has forgiven him
                        already. It nevertheless remains true that Sergianism is sin and
                        heretical. A heresy is a heresy by nature, not by authorship.

                        We should never forget the duty that Christ has given us to exert our
                        judgement ("You will recognise them by their fruits"). The principle
                        that we will be judged as we have judged has nothing to do with this.
                        If I should be heretical, I hope my orthodox brothers will let me
                        know. I would be grateful if they helped me out of my error.

                        This being said, the opinion that I have about reunion with the MP is
                        mine precisely because I think it is that of the Church.

                        I do not agree with the proposal: "this is for our bishops to decide
                        and not you and other people with their various personal opinions
                        which do not reflect the Church" for the following reasons:

                        1. I never said that I would decide anything about this matter.
                        2. I may however have an opinion about this and I may discuss it
                        with a bishop and with you. The bishop might be interested in hearing
                        what I have to say, either to take it into account or to correct me.
                        Remember, bishops are not infallible and laymen are members of the
                        Church. It would be abnormal that bishops would take decisions that
                        would be contrary to the opinion of their flock who, by definition,
                        express the opinion of the Church too.
                        3. My opinions about the Church always reflect those of the
                        Church. I adopt as opinion for myself what I perceive as being the
                        opinion of the Church. My research consists in finding out what the
                        opinion of the Church is, to adopt it for myself. Discussions come
                        about when the opinion of the Church is unclear. This happens. The
                        voice of the laymen may be a signal for the Church that She should be
                        clearer.
                        What happens also, as you know, is that different bishops express
                        different opinions about a given subject. Synods have erred in the
                        past, as we all know. In conclusion, bishops and laymen should be in
                        close unity and absence thereof is always a cause for concern, not a
                        fact to be ignored.

                        In Christ,

                        VK


                        In God,

                        VK
                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Robert Kearney <niconar20@y...> wrote:
                        > As I recall, did not Patriarch Tikhon also collaborate
                        > with the Soviet authorities after he was released from
                        > prison in 1923? Did not he recognize the treaty of
                        > Brest Lovak and called upon the people to support the
                        > Soviet government? Would not this actions have also
                        > placed this holy man under his own anathema? Prehaps
                        > this are things that the people who constantly shout
                        > about this particular event should take time out to
                        > think about what they are saying instead of just
                        > shouting words out in judgment?
                        > Remeber, Christ said, "Treat others the way that you
                        > would want to be treated." THe same judgment that you
                        > give to others shall be given to you in a similar
                        > manner based on your own life. So let us have an end
                        > to this legalistic pharisee like behavior and begin to
                        > try to imitate Christ rather then those who stoned
                        > him. Prehaps this is not the best time to reunite with
                        > MP, but this is for our bishops to decide and not you
                        > and other people with their various personal opinions
                        > which do not reflect the Church.
                        >
                        > In Christ N. R. Kearney
                        > (Who supports Metropolitan Lavr and the true Synod of
                        > ROCOR).
                        > --- vkozyreff <vladimir.kozyreff@s...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Father Seraphim,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > You write: "Sergianism is a sin, and a terrible sin,
                        > > but not a
                        > > heresy, and not unlike other occurrences in Orthodox
                        > > history".
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Let me respectfully state that I disagree with you.
                        > > First, let us
                        > > distinguish two things that are called "Sergianism":
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 1. The conduct that consists in following Bishop
                        > > Sergius's teaching
                        > > in deeds.
                        > >
                        > > 2. A teaching stating that bishop Sergius's tactics
                        > > did save the
                        > > Church.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Both of them are heretical.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Concerning (1), Patriarch Tikhon has anathematised
                        > > those who
                        > > collaborated with the atheist government. To
                        > > anathematise a conduct
                        > > is to declare it officially contrary to the teaching
                        > > of the Church,
                        > > that is contrary to the teaching of Christ. A
                        > > conduct that is
                        > > contrary to the teaching of Christ is heretical.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > (2) is more important for us. Nobody, for the moment
                        > > does collaborate
                        > > with the communist government any longer. We are
                        > > told that this is a
                        > > thing of the past. Let it be. Nevertheless, the
                        > > teaching that
                        > > Sergianism has saved the Church in Russia is
                        > > presently actively
                        > > promoted by the MP. In our Church, this teaching is
                        > > tolerated as not
                        > > heretical by those who are tired to stand for the
                        > > Truth or are
                        > > seduced by the idea of re-union at the expense of
                        > > the Truth. Claiming
                        > > that Sergianism has saved the Church is heretical
                        > > because:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Patriarch Tikhon declared the collaboration of the
                        > > Church with the
                        > > Bolsheviks anathema. Metropolitan Sergius did just
                        > > what the Patriarch
                        > > had anathematised. An anathematised conduct cannot
                        > > save the Church.
                        > > Believing it or teaching that it can is heretical.
                        > > You write yourself that Sergianism is a great sin.
                        > > Claiming the
                        > > opposite is heretical. Claiming that a great sin has
                        > > saved the Church
                        > > is heretical too.
                        > > In general, claiming that an action has saved the
                        > > Church means either
                        > > that it pleased God, or that it did save the Church
                        > > in spite of it
                        > > not pleasing God. Claiming that calling the martyrs
                        > > counterrevolutionaries and excluding them from the
                        > > Church pleased God
                        > > is heretical. Claiming that bishop Sergius saved the
                        > > Church by an
                        > > action that displeased God is heretical too.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It is important to know that heresies are not only
                        > > proposals that
                        > > explicit contradict explicit proposals of the Creed.
                        > > There are other
                        > > heresies than those that have been declared heresies
                        > > by the seven
                        > > Councils. We were warned by Metropolitan Philaret.
                        > > The heresies that
                        > > we face now are more subtle and dangerous than the
                        > > past ones. Now, we
                        > > can see it.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Becoming tolerant to heresies is one of the most
                        > > terrible dangers for
                        > > our Church. Everything in this world invites us to
                        > > unite with
                        > > schismatics and heretics and to acknowledge that we
                        > > all "pray the
                        > > same God". Patriarch Alexis just declared to the
                        > > Pope of Rome that
                        > > the orthodox and the "catholic" Church are both
                        > > based on tradition.
                        > > As soon as the "catholic proselytism" ends, talks
                        > > about unity will
                        > > start, he said. Look at those orthodox who forget
                        > > the heretical
                        > > nature of the schisms that have separated most of
                        > > mankind from
                        > > orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them in the
                        > > heresy.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In Christ, and begging your prayers
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > VK
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Priest Seraphim
                        > > Holland" <seraphim@o...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > The Society for Orthodox Truth said:
                        > > > > Fr. Seraphim was speaking of a different
                        > > situation, he was
                        > > speaking of,
                        > > > > if the ROCOR has nothing to say, then all the
                        > > systems people in
                        > > the
                        > > > > world can't help.
                        > > >
                        > > > I am not the webmaster, and have not been since
                        > > the Sobor. I am
                        > > told that
                        > > > there is an ukaz, but have not seen one. I was
                        > > only told on the
                        > > telephone.
                        > > >
                        > > > I stand by my criticism of our church.
                        > > >
                        > > > I scratched and clawed for years, getting
                        > > information, stories, even
                        > > > BEGGING for letters to be written (such as after
                        > > 911). We are so
                        > > entrenched
                        > > > and fearful of the implications of discussion with
                        > > the MP that we
                        > > are
                        > > > paralyzed. We hurl jargon, and invent heresies to
                        > > oppose
                        > > (Sergianism is a
                        > > > sin, and a terrible sin, but not a heresy, and not
                        > > unlike other
                        > > occurrences
                        > > > in Orthodox history).
                        > > >
                        > > > I am quite despondent about our church's lack of
                        > > vision, activity,
                        > > > information dissemination (see the very top of
                        > > this letter),
                        > > courage and
                        > > > compassion (if we care about Russia, we should be
                        > > the "big brother"
                        > > and be
                        > > > brotherly and conciliatory (and no, this does not
                        > > mean immediate
                        > > union, or
                        > > > giving up our principles), instead, we are more
                        > > like the "elder
                        > > son").
                        > > >
                        > > > I was involved in investigating, upon the orders
                        > > of my hierarchy
                        > > (after
                        > > > MANY calls and emails from me and many others)
                        > > serious perversion
                        > > in our
                        > > > church. My report was not acted on. Another one
                        > > preceding mine was
                        > > not
                        > > > acted on. When the guy cut and ran (no duh, we did
                        > > not bother to
                        > > address
                        > > > the situation early, and later, it was clear to me
                        > > that
                        > === message truncated ===
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                      • vkozyreff
                        1. I do not say that the Latino Catholics cannot name other Churches that are even less traditional than theirs. I just dispute the idea that the Orthodox
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 9, 2002
                          1. I do not say that the Latino Catholics cannot name
                          other "Churches" that are even less traditional than theirs. I just
                          dispute the idea that the Orthodox Church is linked to the Latino
                          Catholics by the fact that they are both traditional. Their
                          relationship with Tradition is precisely what separates them.
                          Protestant grapefruit juice is irrelevant here. As you know, the
                          Latino-Catholics have innovated and are constantly doing so. One of
                          their last innovations is that the sin (and thus the Redemption)
                          should not be at the centre of the faith any longer. Innovation is
                          opposed to tradition. If I innovate, accusing others of innovating
                          even more does not change the fact that I innovate myself.
                          2. The concern of Orthodox believers regarding a possible union
                          with the Latino Catholics is not totally unfounded, as history has
                          shown. Twice, the patriarch of Constantinople has declared union with
                          Rome. The faithful have rersisted against their bishops and have
                          saved orthodoxy. Uniates do exist. The anathema against the Latino
                          Catholics has been abrogated recently by the patriarch of
                          Constantinople. Among our clergy and our believers, many continue to
                          speak about the "reunion of the Church", as though the heretics were
                          still part of the Church. Contrarily to what you seem to imply, I
                          think that the danger is real. You say yourself that you consider the
                          filioque matter as unimportant.
                          3. As you know, many Orthodox have turned themselves to the
                          Latino-Catholics already. Ecumenism is more aggressive than ever and
                          sympathy for it is growing within our ranks. Many orthodox are afraid
                          that tey might remain a minority compared to the Latino Catholics and
                          Orthodox supporters of ecumenism. How can you blame the faithful for
                          being vigilant and concerned?

                          In Christ,

                          VK
                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
                          > Unfortunately, some Orthodox faithful are beginning to resemble
                          tabloid
                          > newspapers with their eye-catching headlines: "ROCA TO UNITE WITH
                          THE MP!",
                          > "IMMINENT UNITY WITH MOSCOW". Whatever will be next??? Well, now we
                          know.
                          > "MP TO UNITE WITH ROME!" I really wish that people would stop
                          taking the
                          > barest of a thread of fact/truth/information and spinning it into
                          the worst
                          > possible scenario. After leaving the Mitropolia almost 20 years ago
                          and
                          > joining the ROCA, already at that time there were people/parishes
                          leaving,
                          > due to the "ROCA GOING ECCUMENICAL!" I can't say that the ROCA is
                          anymore
                          > ecumenical now then under Vladyka Philaret.
                          >
                          > How could Moscow could "unite" with Rome? Any talks about serious
                          unity
                          > would take an act of ALL of the local Orthodox Churches meeting AND
                          > agreeing to this. The chances of that happening are almost nil --
                          the local
                          > Churches can't even agree on such germane issues as the Calendar,
                          how to
                          > treat the uncanonical situation of multiple bishops on the same
                          territory
                          > [which means just about any non-historically Orthodox country, such
                          as the
                          > US, Australia, UK, Franc etc.], Mitropolia autocephaly, wether
                          the
                          > Ukriane and Estonia are MP or EP territory. Albeit, there are bi-
                          lateral
                          > commissions between Rome and the MP, the EP etc but what exactly
                          have they
                          > accomplished in concrete terms?
                          >
                          > What is exactly the problem if Patriarch Alexis saying that "the
                          Catholic
                          > Church is traditional?" Considering the female ministers, married
                          bishops,
                          > grape juice sacrament that exists in the Protestant churches, well
                          the
                          > Catholic church does seem "traditional."
                          >
                          > On a related note of unity, I recall reading in the OCA newspaper
                          some time
                          > ago about a movement in the 19th Century for the Episcopal Church
                          in the US
                          > to be accepted into the Russian Orthodox Church. Does anyone know
                          anything
                          > about this?
                          >
                          > Hristofor
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >niconar20@y... writes:
                          > > > Patriarch Alexis just declared to the Pope of Rome that the
                          orthodox
                          > > and the
                          > > > "catholic" Church are both based on tradition. As soon as
                          the "catholic
                          > > > proselytism" ends, talks about unity will start, he said. Look
                          at those
                          > > > orthodox who forget the heretical nature of the schisms that
                          have
                          > > separated
                          > > > most of mankind from orthodoxy, and that are ready to join them
                          in the
                          > > > heresy.
                          > >
                          > >Hmmm.... I guess Patriarch Alexis is a bit brighter than your
                          average
                          > >emigre, because he is quite correct. Both churches are based on
                          tradition,
                          > >and unity is a desirable goal. I strngly suspect that the
                          reciprocal
                          > >excommunications had more to do with the sacking of Constantinople
                          than with
                          > >dogmatic violations. As "holier than though" as we now pretend to
                          be, fact
                          > >is that the Orthodox Church lived with the filioque for several
                          hundred years
                          > >without much of a problem with it, and that to this day a large
                          number of
                          > >Catholics and Orthodox still remain completely clueless as to what
                          this
                          > >really means. That other big stumbling block, papal
                          infallibility, is also
                          > >not that big. Even Metropolitan Vitaly affected this from time to
                          time. And
                          > >very few Orthodox understand that the doctrine/dogma can only be
                          invoked ex
                          > >cathedra and has only been invoked a couple of times. Why not
                          ultimate
                          > >unity? That's what Christ wanted.
                          > >
                          > >Vladimir Hindrichs
                          > >who prays for the Unity of Christ's Church
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • ajj66046
                          Dear Catherine, My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant with
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 11, 2002
                            Dear Catherine,

                            My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been
                            starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant
                            with our desire to raise up our children as Orthodox Christians.
                            Please let us know how we might benefit from your experience (either
                            by personal correspondence or in a discussion group setting). We
                            intend to follow a 'Classical Education' model at present adapted
                            from 'The Well-Trained Mind' curriculum, however, it has a pretty
                            protestant/western-european bias which we will adjust when we get
                            into teaching our daughter history.

                            Thank you for your efforts,
                            Anthony Jacobs

                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can
                            certainly do
                            > that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see
                            what happens!
                            >
                            > flicka68@y...
                            >
                            > =====
                            > Catherine
                          • Jean-Claude
                            This is my first post on this site. I have been home schooling my son since he was five. He will be entering the seminary in about one or two years. I don t
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 11, 2002
                              This is my first post on this site. I have been home schooling my son since he was five. He will be entering the seminary in about one or two years. I don't know what state you live in but I am in Ohio and here I must comply with certain subjects buy my choice of texts is pretty good. As far as my Orthodox training or classes. I use a standard text concerning the Orthodox faith. He is currently studying the Stichera (please excuse spelling) and the order of services.

                              Jean-Claude
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: ajj66046
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 1:29 PM
                              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Christian Education website


                              Dear Catherine,

                              My wife currently homeschools our five year old daughter and has been
                              starving for some curriculum and project ideas which are consonant
                              with our desire to raise up our children as Orthodox Christians.
                              Please let us know how we might benefit from your experience (either
                              by personal correspondence or in a discussion group setting). We
                              intend to follow a 'Classical Education' model at present adapted
                              from 'The Well-Trained Mind' curriculum, however, it has a pretty
                              protestant/western-european bias which we will adjust when we get
                              into teaching our daughter history.

                              Thank you for your efforts,
                              Anthony Jacobs

                              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., catherine elaine sullivan <flicka68@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > That would be fine- I'll give it one more shot, and if not, we can
                              certainly do
                              > that. It set one up under Orthodox and Education and we'll see
                              what happens!
                              >
                              > flicka68@y...
                              >
                              > =====
                              > Catherine



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • catherine elaine sullivan
                              It is a little confusing to me- isn t it clear to Orthodox that Latino Catholics and others are under the jurisdiction of the Pope and we are not, and never
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 12, 2002
                                It is a little confusing to me- isn't it clear to Orthodox that Latino
                                Catholics and others are under the jurisdiction of the Pope and we are not, and
                                never have been? Why would they wish to accept this? It is the same reason I
                                do not believe there will ever be full eccumenism- the Pope is not about to
                                give up his office!

                                =====
                                Catherine

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                              • catherine elaine sullivan
                                If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the only
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 12, 2002
                                  If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group
                                  called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the
                                  only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will have more, I
                                  hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired also. After
                                  you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.

                                  =====
                                  Catherine

                                  __________________________________________________
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                                • Hristofor
                                  Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it the one called OrthodoxClassicalHS? hristofor.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 13, 2002
                                    Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it the one
                                    called OrthodoxClassicalHS?

                                    hristofor.

                                    At 12:26 PM 2/12/2002, you wrote:
                                    >If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started a group
                                    >called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So far, I am the
                                    >only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will have more, I
                                    >hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired also. After
                                    >you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.
                                    >
                                    >=====
                                    >Catherine
                                    >
                                    >__________________________________________________
                                    >Do You Yahoo!?
                                    >Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                                    >http://greetings.yahoo.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  • ajj66046
                                    Hristofor, I had the same problem finding it, but you can access the page by typing (or following this link if it works):
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Feb 14, 2002
                                      Hristofor,

                                      I had the same problem finding it, but you can access the page by
                                      typing (or following this link if it works):

                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodoxeducation/

                                      At present Catherine and I are the only members, but I hope there
                                      will be more.

                                      Anthony

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Hristofor <hristofor@m...> wrote:
                                      > Did a quick search of Orthodox Education and did not find it. Is it
                                      the one
                                      > called OrthodoxClassicalHS?
                                      >
                                      > hristofor.
                                      >
                                      > At 12:26 PM 2/12/2002, you wrote:
                                      > >If you go into Yahoo groups (www.yahoogroups.com), I have started
                                      a group
                                      > >called Orthodox Education, which should serve the purpose. So
                                      far, I am the
                                      > >only member! However, we can spread the work to others, and will
                                      have more, I
                                      > >hope. I did se on my piled-up e-mails that someone else inquired
                                      also. After
                                      > >you go into Yahoogroups (you have to "join"), let me know further.
                                      > >
                                      > >=====
                                      > >Catherine
                                      > >
                                      > >__________________________________________________
                                      > >Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > >Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
                                      > >http://greetings.yahoo.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • catherine elaine sullivan
                                      No, it s in Yahoo groups (not the old clubs) under Orthodox Christian Education, but pops up under my groups as Orthoeduc or something like that. =====
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Feb 15, 2002
                                        No, it's in Yahoo groups (not the old clubs) under Orthodox Christian
                                        Education, but pops up under "my groups" as Orthoeduc or something like that.

                                        =====
                                        Catherine

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