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Re: Why_born_of_a_virgin?_

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  • polychrony
    ... Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops! Polychronios
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Sandra Thompson <sandra@g...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
      > >married to non Christian.
      > > I thought no Orthodox person could marry a non-
      > > Christian. If a priest's kid were too marry a non Christian,
      > > would he be defrocked?
      >
      >
      > We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced,
      > became Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.

      Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

      Polychronios
    • boulia_1
      Re: the question of Orthodox marrying non-Orthodox: If a faithful Orthodox Christian wants to marry a non-Orthodox person, even Christian of other
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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        Re: the question of Orthodox marrying non-Orthodox: If a faithful
        Orthodox Christian wants to marry a non-Orthodox person, even
        Christian of other denomination, even "Catholic," s/he must petition
        her/his Bishop for permission! Permission is not ever granted for
        marriage to unbaptized, I believe. I am also curious if this Canon is
        enforced: if a priest's child falls away and marries outside the
        church, is he punished? Does that go for 'spiritul children' too?
        (NOT being serious there...!)

        Also, I personally know of ordained men all the way up to the
        episcopate who (1) were not virgins when they married OR (2) did not
        marry virgins OR (3)were divorced... In all cases, as with ANY
        ORDINATION, it is the responsibility of the Bishop to deem who is
        worthy. remember, our Faith includes the Mysteries of Confession and
        Repentance and the forgiveness of sins!!


        This is all quite a way off from Father Seraphim's original question,
        though. Interesting how these 'topics' take a life of their own
        sometimes.

        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Sandra Thompson <sandra@g...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
        > >married to non Christian.
        > > I thought no Orthodox person could marry a non-
        > > Christian. If a priest's kid were too marry a non Christian,
        would he be
        > > defrocked?
        >
        >
        > We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced,
        became
        > Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.
      • mwoerl
        ... One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was his ex-wife)
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 19, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:

          > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

          One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
          a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
          his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
          was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
          James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
          wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
          (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
          speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
          Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
          Michael Woerl
        • Karen Grisel
          Dear Misha, there was also an extensive article on Patriarch Alexei II of Russia recently posted somewhere. He was married. His matushka s father had a
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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            Dear Misha,

            there was also an extensive article on Patriarch Alexei II of Russia
            recently posted somewhere. He was married. His matushka's father had a
            prominent parish in Latvia to which he eventually became rector.

            This is not unusual to find.

            Fr. Basil Grisel

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:10 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why_born_of_a_virgin?/"divorcee bishops"??


            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
            >
            > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
            >
            > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
            > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
            > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
            > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
            > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
            > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
            > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
            > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
            > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
            > Michael Woerl
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Kiril Bart
            Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp. Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong. S.K. ... __________________________________________________ Do You
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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              Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
              Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
              S.K.

              --- mwoerl <mwoerl@...> wrote:
              > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
              > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
              >
              > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
              >
              > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
              > Japan-he was granted
              > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
              > monasticism (as was
              > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he
              > impression this
              > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
              > example is Archbishop
              > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
              > Mission, althouh his
              > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
              > Russian, and at the time
              > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were
              > strictly Russian
              > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in
              > the Church Abroad.
              > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
              > Michael Woerl
              >
              >
              >

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            • catherine elaine sullivan
              Probably irrelevant, but isn t the word divorcee referring to WOMEN? Catherine ... Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                Probably irrelevant, but isn't the word "divorcee" referring to WOMEN?

                Catherine


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              • yasnogorsky
                ... A query concerning what is under discussion: The practice is divorce for the sake of Christ and his Church, with both parties becoming celibate in order
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                  > Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
                  > Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
                  > S.K.
                  >
                  > --- mwoerl <mwoerl@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
                  > > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                  > >
                  > > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
                  > > Japan-he was granted
                  > > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
                  > > monasticism (as was
                  > > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he
                  > > impression this
                  > > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
                  > > example is Archbishop
                  > > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
                  > > Mission, althouh his
                  > > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
                  > > Russian, and at the time
                  > > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were
                  > > strictly Russian
                  > > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in
                  > > the Church Abroad.
                  > > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                  > > Michael Woerl


                  A query concerning what is under discussion: The "practice" is
                  divorce for the sake of Christ and his Church, with both parties
                  becoming celibate in order to serve in capacities to which they are
                  called, is it not? Is this what we are talking about in the cases of
                  Bishops Alexander and Michael? And does it apply to Patriarch
                  Aleksiy? I am not clear whether we are discussing the giving up of
                  marriage for the sake of the Church or the elevation to the
                  episcopate of people whose marriages have failed. These are very
                  different issues.
                  G. Y.

                  > __________________________________________________
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                • Valentina Grigorieva
                  1/ At the time O. Simeon Donskov became a monk, and some days after - archimandrit, and some weeks after - bishop Michael, he was for sure a divorced man. 2/
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                    1/ At the time O. Simeon Donskov became a monk, and
                    some days after - archimandrit, and some weeks after -
                    bishop Michael, he was for sure a divorced man.
                    2/ archimandrit Alexander (now bishop of South
                    America) is also a divorcee.
                    Valentina from France.

                    --- Kiril Bart <kirbart@...> a écrit : > Bp.
                    Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
                    > Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
                    > S.K.
                    >
                    > --- mwoerl <mwoerl@...> wrote:
                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
                    > > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                    > >
                    > > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
                    > > Japan-he was granted
                    > > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
                    > > monasticism (as was
                    > > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under
                    > he
                    > > impression this
                    > > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
                    > > example is Archbishop
                    > > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
                    > > Mission, althouh his
                    > > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
                    > > Russian, and at the time
                    > > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US
                    > were
                    > > strictly Russian
                    > > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops'
                    > in
                    > > the Church Abroad.
                    > > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                    > > Michael Woerl
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for
                    > all of
                    > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
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                    > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                    >
                    >

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                  • Joachim Wertz
                    Dear Michael, Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 2, 2002
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                      Dear Michael,
                      Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                      a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                      (Toombs)? I've read something about him somewhere in the past, and I think I
                      have seen his picture somewhere, but I don't recall that much. Also, could
                      you please explain what exactly was "the Church Abroad's American mission"
                      at that time?
                      Thanks,
                      Joachim Wertz


                      ----------
                      From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why_born_of_a_virgin?/"divorcee bishops"??
                      Date: Thu, Dec 20, 2001, 2:10 AM


                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:

                      > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

                      One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
                      a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
                      his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
                      was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
                      James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
                      wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
                      (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
                      speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
                      Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                      Michael Woerl



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                    • mwoerl
                      ... Joachim, Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in Roman
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 3, 2002
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Joachim Wertz" <wertz@p...> wrote:
                        > Dear Michael,
                        > Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                        > a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                        > (Toombs)?

                        Joachim,
                        Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left
                        home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in
                        Roman Catholicism, and his instructor, a Jesuit, told him that his
                        temperament would be more suited to Orthodoxy than to Roman Cathoicism
                        or Anglicanism. He became involved with some 'American Orthodox' group,
                        headed by a Stanislaus deWitow; this group was also involved in
                        Rosicrucianism. I believe in the 1940's, the future Archbishop James
                        disassociated himself from this group, and began his own
                        'jurisdiction.' He realized that his 'group' was totally uncanonical,
                        and sought to correct this. He approached a Bishop Christopher (an
                        Albanian or from Jeruslaem Patriarchate?? I can check this for you . .
                        .), I think-and this Bishop Christopher told him to contact the Russian
                        Church in America, as the Russian Church was the first to have
                        missions, dioceses, etc., in America. The future Archbishop James first
                        contacted the North American Metropolia, who would have absolutely
                        nothing to do with him. He then contacted the Church Abroad, and
                        Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko, +1960) became his mentor. He was received
                        into the Church Abroad with his parishes (one in N.Y.C., one in
                        Chicago) and on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in 1950
                        or 1951 was consecrated to the episcopate at the Kursk Icon Hermitage
                        in Mahopac. N.Y., by Metropolitan Anastassy and other hierarchs of the
                        Church Abroad. The 'American Mission' of the Church Abroad basically
                        consisted of Archbishop James' parishes. He was allowed a great deal of
                        autonomy, and contact with the rest of the Church Abroad, while
                        cordial, was not frequent. Around 1954, I think, the Adair brothers,
                        clergy of the American mission, sued Archbishop James for his church in
                        N.Y.C., and won; he served in a chapel in his apartment after that,
                        until his death in 1970. Archbishop James can be seen in the video of
                        the 50th anniversary of the seminary at Jordanville-he is the only
                        clean-shaven hierarch in the video. After this, things get a little
                        murky. I think the official line is that he was 'retired' by the Synod-
                        but I have no date for this retirement. Other sources who knew
                        Archbishop James claim he was given a canonical release from the Church
                        Abroad. After he left, his relations with Metropolitan Anastassy and
                        the hierarchs who had supported him were always cordial. Some people
                        claim he was a Mason, and remained married, which is why he was
                        'retired,' but, again, this cannot be verified officially. Others who
                        knew Archbishop James claim that some hierarchs of the Church Abroad
                        were not exactly pleased to have an American as a hierarch of the
                        Church Abroad, and did not support Archbishop James or his Mission.
                        After leaving the Church Abroad, he again headed his own independent
                        group. This group, the Orthodox American Church, carries on to this day
                        in N.Y.C. under Bishop John Schneider. I was also told by people who
                        knew Archbishop James, but did not follow him after he left the Church
                        Abroad, that he was sincere, and a good man.
                        I hope this is of some help-I am working from memory, and don't have
                        any information with me, so some of the dates may be a little off! If
                        you need any more information, let me know, and I'll see what I have. I
                        know I have information about his consecration in an issue of
                        Tserkovnaya Zhizn.
                        Also interesting is the fact that one of the first Slavonic and
                        English Hierarchical Liturgies in the Church Abroad was celebrated by
                        Metroplitan Anastassy and Archbishop James in Chicago in 1951!
                        With Love in Christ,
                        Michael Woerl
                      • Joachim Wertz
                        Thank you, Michael, for the information you provided. Good enough for the moment! In Christ, Joachim ... From: mwoerl To:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 8, 2002
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                          Thank you, Michael, for the information you provided. Good enough for the
                          moment!
                          In Christ,
                          Joachim

                          ----------
                          From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:/"divorcee bishops"-Arcbishop James (Toombs)
                          Date: Thu, Jan 3, 2002, 8:01 PM


                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Joachim Wertz" <wertz@p...> wrote:
                          > Dear Michael,
                          > Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                          > a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                          > (Toombs)?

                          Joachim,
                          Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left
                          home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in
                          Roman Catholicism, and his instructor, a Jesuit, told him that his
                          temperament would be more suited to Orthodoxy than to Roman Cathoicism
                          or Anglicanism. He became involved with some 'American Orthodox' group,
                          headed by a Stanislaus deWitow; this group was also involved in
                          Rosicrucianism. I believe in the 1940's, the future Archbishop James
                          disassociated himself from this group, and began his own
                          'jurisdiction.' He realized that his 'group' was totally uncanonical,
                          and sought to correct this. He approached a Bishop Christopher (an
                          Albanian or from Jeruslaem Patriarchate?? I can check this for you . .
                          .), I think-and this Bishop Christopher told him to contact the Russian
                          Church in America, as the Russian Church was the first to have
                          missions, dioceses, etc., in America. The future Archbishop James first
                          contacted the North American Metropolia, who would have absolutely
                          nothing to do with him. He then contacted the Church Abroad, and
                          Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko, +1960) became his mentor. He was received
                          into the Church Abroad with his parishes (one in N.Y.C., one in
                          Chicago) and on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in 1950
                          or 1951 was consecrated to the episcopate at the Kursk Icon Hermitage
                          in Mahopac. N.Y., by Metropolitan Anastassy and other hierarchs of the
                          Church Abroad. The 'American Mission' of the Church Abroad basically
                          consisted of Archbishop James' parishes. He was allowed a great deal of
                          autonomy, and contact with the rest of the Church Abroad, while
                          cordial, was not frequent. Around 1954, I think, the Adair brothers,
                          clergy of the American mission, sued Archbishop James for his church in
                          N.Y.C., and won; he served in a chapel in his apartment after that,
                          until his death in 1970. Archbishop James can be seen in the video of
                          the 50th anniversary of the seminary at Jordanville-he is the only
                          clean-shaven hierarch in the video. After this, things get a little
                          murky. I think the official line is that he was 'retired' by the Synod-
                          but I have no date for this retirement. Other sources who knew
                          Archbishop James claim he was given a canonical release from the Church
                          Abroad. After he left, his relations with Metropolitan Anastassy and
                          the hierarchs who had supported him were always cordial. Some people
                          claim he was a Mason, and remained married, which is why he was
                          'retired,' but, again, this cannot be verified officially. Others who
                          knew Archbishop James claim that some hierarchs of the Church Abroad
                          were not exactly pleased to have an American as a hierarch of the
                          Church Abroad, and did not support Archbishop James or his Mission.
                          After leaving the Church Abroad, he again headed his own independent
                          group. This group, the Orthodox American Church, carries on to this day
                          in N.Y.C. under Bishop John Schneider. I was also told by people who
                          knew Archbishop James, but did not follow him after he left the Church
                          Abroad, that he was sincere, and a good man.
                          I hope this is of some help-I am working from memory, and don't have
                          any information with me, so some of the dates may be a little off! If
                          you need any more information, let me know, and I'll see what I have. I
                          know I have information about his consecration in an issue of
                          Tserkovnaya Zhizn.
                          Also interesting is the fact that one of the first Slavonic and
                          English Hierarchical Liturgies in the Church Abroad was celebrated by
                          Metroplitan Anastassy and Archbishop James in Chicago in 1951!
                          With Love in Christ,
                          Michael Woerl



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