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Re: [orthodox-synod] Why_born_of_a_virgin?_

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  • Kiril Bart
    In Russian Orthodox tradition and I think in any other too, future priest have to be married to a virgin. They have to be married by first marrige on both
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 14, 2001
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      In Russian Orthodox tradition and I think in any other
      too, future priest have to be married to a virgin.
      They have to be married by first marrige on both
      sides.
      Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
      married to non Christian.
      Subdeacon Kirill
      --- lieuwen@...-labs.com wrote:
      >
      > If Christ was not born of a Virgin, then those of
      > little faith could doubt
      > that He was "conceived by the Holy Spirit and the
      > Virgin Mary."
      >
      > Also, in the Old Testament, the High Priest could
      > only marry a virgin
      > (Lev 21:13) and (I believe although could not find
      > it in a quick look)
      > priests could only marry virgins or widows of a
      > priest.
      >
      > Clearly, fornicators are not worthy. Also,
      > divorcees have been involved
      > in a great sin (whether they are guilty or not, they
      > are marred.)
      > Thus, only a widow would even be a possibility by
      > even human reasoning not
      > warped by modern reasoning. However, the Orthodox
      > discourage remarriage
      > even of widows, so this would be inconsistant with
      > the Orthodox ethos.
      >
      > Under the mercy,
      >
      > Daniel
      >
      >
      >


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    • Sandra Thompson
      ... We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced, became Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 14, 2001
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        >
        >Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
        >married to non Christian.
        > I thought no Orthodox person could marry a non-
        > Christian. If a priest's kid were too marry a non Christian, would he be
        > defrocked?


        We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced, became
        Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.
      • polychrony
        ... Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops! Polychronios
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Sandra Thompson <sandra@g...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
          > >married to non Christian.
          > > I thought no Orthodox person could marry a non-
          > > Christian. If a priest's kid were too marry a non Christian,
          > > would he be defrocked?
          >
          >
          > We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced,
          > became Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.

          Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

          Polychronios
        • boulia_1
          Re: the question of Orthodox marrying non-Orthodox: If a faithful Orthodox Christian wants to marry a non-Orthodox person, even Christian of other
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 15, 2001
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            Re: the question of Orthodox marrying non-Orthodox: If a faithful
            Orthodox Christian wants to marry a non-Orthodox person, even
            Christian of other denomination, even "Catholic," s/he must petition
            her/his Bishop for permission! Permission is not ever granted for
            marriage to unbaptized, I believe. I am also curious if this Canon is
            enforced: if a priest's child falls away and marries outside the
            church, is he punished? Does that go for 'spiritul children' too?
            (NOT being serious there...!)

            Also, I personally know of ordained men all the way up to the
            episcopate who (1) were not virgins when they married OR (2) did not
            marry virgins OR (3)were divorced... In all cases, as with ANY
            ORDINATION, it is the responsibility of the Bishop to deem who is
            worthy. remember, our Faith includes the Mysteries of Confession and
            Repentance and the forgiveness of sins!!


            This is all quite a way off from Father Seraphim's original question,
            though. Interesting how these 'topics' take a life of their own
            sometimes.

            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Sandra Thompson <sandra@g...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >Another Canon states that Priest's kids couldn't be
            > >married to non Christian.
            > > I thought no Orthodox person could marry a non-
            > > Christian. If a priest's kid were too marry a non Christian,
            would he be
            > > defrocked?
            >
            >
            > We have priests who were married prior to being Orthodox, divorced,
            became
            > Orthodox and subsequently became a priest.
          • mwoerl
            ... One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was his ex-wife)
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 19, 2001
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              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:

              > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

              One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
              a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
              his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
              was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
              James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
              wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
              (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
              speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
              Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
              Michael Woerl
            • Karen Grisel
              Dear Misha, there was also an extensive article on Patriarch Alexei II of Russia recently posted somewhere. He was married. His matushka s father had a
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                Dear Misha,

                there was also an extensive article on Patriarch Alexei II of Russia
                recently posted somewhere. He was married. His matushka's father had a
                prominent parish in Latvia to which he eventually became rector.

                This is not unusual to find.

                Fr. Basil Grisel

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:10 PM
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why_born_of_a_virgin?/"divorcee bishops"??


                > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                >
                > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                >
                > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
                > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
                > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
                > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
                > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
                > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
                > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
                > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
                > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                > Michael Woerl
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
              • Kiril Bart
                Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp. Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong. S.K. ... __________________________________________________ Do You
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                  Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
                  Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
                  S.K.

                  --- mwoerl <mwoerl@...> wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
                  > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                  >
                  > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
                  > Japan-he was granted
                  > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
                  > monasticism (as was
                  > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he
                  > impression this
                  > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
                  > example is Archbishop
                  > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
                  > Mission, althouh his
                  > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
                  > Russian, and at the time
                  > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were
                  > strictly Russian
                  > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in
                  > the Church Abroad.
                  > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                  > Michael Woerl
                  >
                  >
                  >

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                • catherine elaine sullivan
                  Probably irrelevant, but isn t the word divorcee referring to WOMEN? Catherine ... Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctionsfor all of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                    Probably irrelevant, but isn't the word "divorcee" referring to WOMEN?

                    Catherine


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                  • yasnogorsky
                    ... A query concerning what is under discussion: The practice is divorce for the sake of Christ and his Church, with both parties becoming celibate in order
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                      > Bp. Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
                      > Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
                      > S.K.
                      >
                      > --- mwoerl <mwoerl@y...> wrote:
                      > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
                      > > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                      > >
                      > > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
                      > > Japan-he was granted
                      > > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
                      > > monasticism (as was
                      > > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he
                      > > impression this
                      > > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
                      > > example is Archbishop
                      > > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
                      > > Mission, althouh his
                      > > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
                      > > Russian, and at the time
                      > > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were
                      > > strictly Russian
                      > > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in
                      > > the Church Abroad.
                      > > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                      > > Michael Woerl


                      A query concerning what is under discussion: The "practice" is
                      divorce for the sake of Christ and his Church, with both parties
                      becoming celibate in order to serve in capacities to which they are
                      called, is it not? Is this what we are talking about in the cases of
                      Bishops Alexander and Michael? And does it apply to Patriarch
                      Aleksiy? I am not clear whether we are discussing the giving up of
                      marriage for the sake of the Church or the elevation to the
                      episcopate of people whose marriages have failed. These are very
                      different issues.
                      G. Y.

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                    • Valentina Grigorieva
                      1/ At the time O. Simeon Donskov became a monk, and some days after - archimandrit, and some weeks after - bishop Michael, he was for sure a divorced man. 2/
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                        1/ At the time O. Simeon Donskov became a monk, and
                        some days after - archimandrit, and some weeks after -
                        bishop Michael, he was for sure a divorced man.
                        2/ archimandrit Alexander (now bishop of South
                        America) is also a divorcee.
                        Valentina from France.

                        --- Kiril Bart <kirbart@...> a écrit : > Bp.
                        Alexander Mileant is a divorsee, I think Bp.
                        > Michael is a widower, but I might be wrong.
                        > S.K.
                        >
                        > --- mwoerl <mwoerl@...> wrote:
                        > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony"
                        > > <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!
                        > >
                        > > One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of
                        > > Japan-he was granted
                        > > a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to
                        > > monasticism (as was
                        > > his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under
                        > he
                        > > impression this
                        > > was the practice in Russia in times past. Another
                        > > example is Archbishop
                        > > James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American
                        > > Mission, althouh his
                        > > wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no
                        > > Russian, and at the time
                        > > (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US
                        > were
                        > > strictly Russian
                        > > speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops'
                        > in
                        > > the Church Abroad.
                        > > Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                        > > Michael Woerl
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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                        > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at
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                      • Joachim Wertz
                        Dear Michael, Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 2, 2002
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                          Dear Michael,
                          Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                          a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                          (Toombs)? I've read something about him somewhere in the past, and I think I
                          have seen his picture somewhere, but I don't recall that much. Also, could
                          you please explain what exactly was "the Church Abroad's American mission"
                          at that time?
                          Thanks,
                          Joachim Wertz


                          ----------
                          From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Why_born_of_a_virgin?/"divorcee bishops"??
                          Date: Thu, Dec 20, 2001, 2:10 AM


                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "polychrony" <UPB_MONIODIS@O...> wrote:

                          > Evidently, ROCOR has divorcee bishops!

                          One that comes to mind was Bishop Nikolai (Ono) of Japan-he was granted
                          a canonical divorce; was subsequently tonsured to monasticism (as was
                          his ex-wife) and consecrated a bishop. I am under he impression this
                          was the practice in Russia in times past. Another example is Archbishop
                          James (Toombs) of the Church Abroad's American Mission, althouh his
                          wife did not enter a convent, as she spoke no Russian, and at the time
                          (early 1950's) all Church Abroad convents in US were strictly Russian
                          speaking. I know of no current 'divorcee bishops' in the Church Abroad.
                          Don't they do it that way way in Constantinople?
                          Michael Woerl



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                        • mwoerl
                          ... Joachim, Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in Roman
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Joachim Wertz" <wertz@p...> wrote:
                            > Dear Michael,
                            > Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                            > a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                            > (Toombs)?

                            Joachim,
                            Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left
                            home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in
                            Roman Catholicism, and his instructor, a Jesuit, told him that his
                            temperament would be more suited to Orthodoxy than to Roman Cathoicism
                            or Anglicanism. He became involved with some 'American Orthodox' group,
                            headed by a Stanislaus deWitow; this group was also involved in
                            Rosicrucianism. I believe in the 1940's, the future Archbishop James
                            disassociated himself from this group, and began his own
                            'jurisdiction.' He realized that his 'group' was totally uncanonical,
                            and sought to correct this. He approached a Bishop Christopher (an
                            Albanian or from Jeruslaem Patriarchate?? I can check this for you . .
                            .), I think-and this Bishop Christopher told him to contact the Russian
                            Church in America, as the Russian Church was the first to have
                            missions, dioceses, etc., in America. The future Archbishop James first
                            contacted the North American Metropolia, who would have absolutely
                            nothing to do with him. He then contacted the Church Abroad, and
                            Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko, +1960) became his mentor. He was received
                            into the Church Abroad with his parishes (one in N.Y.C., one in
                            Chicago) and on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in 1950
                            or 1951 was consecrated to the episcopate at the Kursk Icon Hermitage
                            in Mahopac. N.Y., by Metropolitan Anastassy and other hierarchs of the
                            Church Abroad. The 'American Mission' of the Church Abroad basically
                            consisted of Archbishop James' parishes. He was allowed a great deal of
                            autonomy, and contact with the rest of the Church Abroad, while
                            cordial, was not frequent. Around 1954, I think, the Adair brothers,
                            clergy of the American mission, sued Archbishop James for his church in
                            N.Y.C., and won; he served in a chapel in his apartment after that,
                            until his death in 1970. Archbishop James can be seen in the video of
                            the 50th anniversary of the seminary at Jordanville-he is the only
                            clean-shaven hierarch in the video. After this, things get a little
                            murky. I think the official line is that he was 'retired' by the Synod-
                            but I have no date for this retirement. Other sources who knew
                            Archbishop James claim he was given a canonical release from the Church
                            Abroad. After he left, his relations with Metropolitan Anastassy and
                            the hierarchs who had supported him were always cordial. Some people
                            claim he was a Mason, and remained married, which is why he was
                            'retired,' but, again, this cannot be verified officially. Others who
                            knew Archbishop James claim that some hierarchs of the Church Abroad
                            were not exactly pleased to have an American as a hierarch of the
                            Church Abroad, and did not support Archbishop James or his Mission.
                            After leaving the Church Abroad, he again headed his own independent
                            group. This group, the Orthodox American Church, carries on to this day
                            in N.Y.C. under Bishop John Schneider. I was also told by people who
                            knew Archbishop James, but did not follow him after he left the Church
                            Abroad, that he was sincere, and a good man.
                            I hope this is of some help-I am working from memory, and don't have
                            any information with me, so some of the dates may be a little off! If
                            you need any more information, let me know, and I'll see what I have. I
                            know I have information about his consecration in an issue of
                            Tserkovnaya Zhizn.
                            Also interesting is the fact that one of the first Slavonic and
                            English Hierarchical Liturgies in the Church Abroad was celebrated by
                            Metroplitan Anastassy and Archbishop James in Chicago in 1951!
                            With Love in Christ,
                            Michael Woerl
                          • Joachim Wertz
                            Thank you, Michael, for the information you provided. Good enough for the moment! In Christ, Joachim ... From: mwoerl To:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 8, 2002
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                              Thank you, Michael, for the information you provided. Good enough for the
                              moment!
                              In Christ,
                              Joachim

                              ----------
                              From: "mwoerl" <mwoerl@...>
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:/"divorcee bishops"-Arcbishop James (Toombs)
                              Date: Thu, Jan 3, 2002, 8:01 PM


                              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Joachim Wertz" <wertz@p...> wrote:
                              > Dear Michael,
                              > Forgive the long delay in this reply, I was pondering whether to post it for
                              > a while. Could you give us some biographical information on Bishop James
                              > (Toombs)?

                              Joachim,
                              Arcbishop James (Roy Toombs) was born on a farm in Kansas, and left
                              home at about age 16. At some later point, he became interested in
                              Roman Catholicism, and his instructor, a Jesuit, told him that his
                              temperament would be more suited to Orthodoxy than to Roman Cathoicism
                              or Anglicanism. He became involved with some 'American Orthodox' group,
                              headed by a Stanislaus deWitow; this group was also involved in
                              Rosicrucianism. I believe in the 1940's, the future Archbishop James
                              disassociated himself from this group, and began his own
                              'jurisdiction.' He realized that his 'group' was totally uncanonical,
                              and sought to correct this. He approached a Bishop Christopher (an
                              Albanian or from Jeruslaem Patriarchate?? I can check this for you . .
                              .), I think-and this Bishop Christopher told him to contact the Russian
                              Church in America, as the Russian Church was the first to have
                              missions, dioceses, etc., in America. The future Archbishop James first
                              contacted the North American Metropolia, who would have absolutely
                              nothing to do with him. He then contacted the Church Abroad, and
                              Archbishop Vitaly (Maximenko, +1960) became his mentor. He was received
                              into the Church Abroad with his parishes (one in N.Y.C., one in
                              Chicago) and on the Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in 1950
                              or 1951 was consecrated to the episcopate at the Kursk Icon Hermitage
                              in Mahopac. N.Y., by Metropolitan Anastassy and other hierarchs of the
                              Church Abroad. The 'American Mission' of the Church Abroad basically
                              consisted of Archbishop James' parishes. He was allowed a great deal of
                              autonomy, and contact with the rest of the Church Abroad, while
                              cordial, was not frequent. Around 1954, I think, the Adair brothers,
                              clergy of the American mission, sued Archbishop James for his church in
                              N.Y.C., and won; he served in a chapel in his apartment after that,
                              until his death in 1970. Archbishop James can be seen in the video of
                              the 50th anniversary of the seminary at Jordanville-he is the only
                              clean-shaven hierarch in the video. After this, things get a little
                              murky. I think the official line is that he was 'retired' by the Synod-
                              but I have no date for this retirement. Other sources who knew
                              Archbishop James claim he was given a canonical release from the Church
                              Abroad. After he left, his relations with Metropolitan Anastassy and
                              the hierarchs who had supported him were always cordial. Some people
                              claim he was a Mason, and remained married, which is why he was
                              'retired,' but, again, this cannot be verified officially. Others who
                              knew Archbishop James claim that some hierarchs of the Church Abroad
                              were not exactly pleased to have an American as a hierarch of the
                              Church Abroad, and did not support Archbishop James or his Mission.
                              After leaving the Church Abroad, he again headed his own independent
                              group. This group, the Orthodox American Church, carries on to this day
                              in N.Y.C. under Bishop John Schneider. I was also told by people who
                              knew Archbishop James, but did not follow him after he left the Church
                              Abroad, that he was sincere, and a good man.
                              I hope this is of some help-I am working from memory, and don't have
                              any information with me, so some of the dates may be a little off! If
                              you need any more information, let me know, and I'll see what I have. I
                              know I have information about his consecration in an issue of
                              Tserkovnaya Zhizn.
                              Also interesting is the fact that one of the first Slavonic and
                              English Hierarchical Liturgies in the Church Abroad was celebrated by
                              Metroplitan Anastassy and Archbishop James in Chicago in 1951!
                              With Love in Christ,
                              Michael Woerl



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