Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
- Dear Subdeacon Kirill:
What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life in the USSR was like? There may have been people without passports living in the woods in the 30's and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly move outside of your home if you do not have a passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of the Russian people.
I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am saying is that is not for you or me to decide where it applies.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kiril Bart
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks, who
didn't accept soviet passports at all
(bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in red
army etc. About application of that Anathema to those
who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
those who did participate in communist party or
komsomol they are definitely bearing responsibility
for their actions, in my opinion.
P.S. I do understand that you are trying to ridicule
that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it disappeared, or
loose any validity.
--- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
> I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a
> Soviet Passoprt since (I
> guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion
> of the Soviet authority?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- --- niconar20@... a écrit : > --- In
> How could Christians in the...
> USSR continue to practice there faith and yet not be
> loyal to the
> Why should the Church have to go into the catacombsNikolai, even if there are many priests who could
> when there is
> another alternative which is merly to declare
> loyalty to the state?
answer you on that list but don't do it, i would say
my humble opinion that, following your reasoning, your
sentence is equal to declare vain the martyrdom of the
New Russian martyrs.
> For instance, the Polish Church professes loyalty toAs our blessed Metropolitans and bishops previously
> the Polish
> government from her citizens, yet we know that the
> leaders of that
> nation declare the Orthodox Church there to be an
> "alien element" AND
> SURLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HER DESTROYED? The
> declaration of Met.
> Sergi was a true travesty but was there any other
> way that the Church
> could have survived without it?
taught us, and as has written Bishop Amvrossy of
Western Europe in his letter dated oct. 2000 addressed
to his flock of Geneva Cathedral (my translation from
the French) : "the hierarchy of the Church of Russia
is the one of the Lie. Lie of a declaration of
so-called loyalty who was actually a pact with the
evil forces. When times smoothed, she did not try to
search the path of spiritual regeneration.
You are asked to join the Mother-Church, but you ARE
in the Mother Church, you never left Her. The "mother"
who tries to attract you is comparable to "the one who
do not enter by the door of the sheeps enclosure, but
who climbs from elsewhere, that one is a thief and a
crook" (Jn 10:1).
> If the church were merly to letBut the Russian Church know as the Moscow Patriarchate
> herself be destroyeed by the Soviets in the belief
> that God would
> save her, would not then have been an act of
> presumtion on their
has been destroyed by the soviets.
The Orthodox faith has survived in Russia thanks to
the acts and deeds of the New Martyrs and all the
clerics and diddidents in prison or camps, and the
I would encourage all the members of the list to read
the history of Russian Church and History of lives of
New Russian Martyrs. These books will be more
efficient than all others words exchanged on that
list, and avoid many questions.
> Please excuss me for answering these questions but Ianswers so I turn to this list to try and get them. Im
> have always desired to ask them. I wish to know the
not MP so dont think that I am just
> because I desire to know why about something.I don't think anything of you Nikoai, neither good or
> In Christ Nikolai
bad, MP or not, you are a human being, orthodox, with
his fears and doubts like all we have, and i respect
By the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs, God have mercy
Valentina by the Med Sea.
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- You might considered that a fantasy if you wish, but
there is a record of some bezpassportnik clergy coming
here in States,I think in 70's, which really puzzled
me, but it's a fact. Regarding conditions of life in
USSR I'm not only can imagine, I'm personally knows
what it was and control of KGB, although it was
impressive, wasn't as total as you want to present it.
Those people (bezpassportniki)(passportless) didn't
get into Institutes didn't get a good jobs, didn't try
to establish themselves, but rather choose life full
of troubles and persecution with Christ, to quiet life
of normal soviet conformist with lenin.
Regards, Subdeacon Kirill
--- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
> Dear Subdeacon Kirill:__________________________________________________
> What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life
> in the USSR was like? There may have been people
> without passports living in the woods in the 30's
> and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly
> move outside of your home if you do not have a
> passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of
> the Russian people.
> I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am
> saying is that is not for you or me to decide where
> it applies.
> In XC,
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kiril Bart
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
> There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks,
> didn't accept soviet passports at all
> (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in
> army etc. About application of that Anathema to
> who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
> those who did participate in communist party or
> komsomol they are definitely bearing
> for their actions, in my opinion.
> Subdeacon Kirill
> P.S. I do understand that you are trying to
> that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it
> disappeared, or
> loose any validity.
> --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...>
> > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or
> has a
> > Soviet Passoprt since (I
> > guess) they also collaborated by way of
> > of the Soviet authority?
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
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