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Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919

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  • V. J. Boitchenko
    Dear Subdeacon Kirill: What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life in the USSR was like? There may have been people without passports living in the
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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      Dear Subdeacon Kirill:

      What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life in the USSR was like? There may have been people without passports living in the woods in the 30's and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly move outside of your home if you do not have a passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of the Russian people.

      I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am saying is that is not for you or me to decide where it applies.

      In XC,

      v


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Kiril Bart
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


      There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks, who
      didn't accept soviet passports at all
      (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in red
      army etc. About application of that Anathema to those
      who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
      those who did participate in communist party or
      komsomol they are definitely bearing responsibility
      for their actions, in my opinion.
      Subdeacon Kirill
      P.S. I do understand that you are trying to ridicule
      that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it disappeared, or
      loose any validity.

      --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
      > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a
      > Soviet Passoprt since (I
      > guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion
      > of the Soviet authority?
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Valentina Grigorieva
      ... orthodox-synod@y..., ... Nikolai, even if there are many priests who could answer you on that list but don t do it, i would say my humble opinion that,
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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        --- niconar20@... a écrit : > --- In
        orthodox-synod@y...,
        ...
        > How could Christians in the
        > USSR continue to practice there faith and yet not be
        > loyal to the
        > Soviets?
        ...
        > Why should the Church have to go into the catacombs
        > when there is
        > another alternative which is merly to declare
        > loyalty to the state?
        Nikolai, even if there are many priests who could
        answer you on that list but don't do it, i would say
        my humble opinion that, following your reasoning, your
        sentence is equal to declare vain the martyrdom of the
        New Russian martyrs.

        > For instance, the Polish Church professes loyalty to
        > the Polish
        > government from her citizens, yet we know that the
        > leaders of that
        > nation declare the Orthodox Church there to be an
        > "alien element" AND
        > SURLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HER DESTROYED? The
        > declaration of Met.
        > Sergi was a true travesty but was there any other
        > way that the Church
        > could have survived without it?
        As our blessed Metropolitans and bishops previously
        taught us, and as has written Bishop Amvrossy of
        Western Europe in his letter dated oct. 2000 addressed
        to his flock of Geneva Cathedral (my translation from
        the French) : "the hierarchy of the Church of Russia
        is the one of the Lie. Lie of a declaration of
        so-called loyalty who was actually a pact with the
        evil forces. When times smoothed, she did not try to
        search the path of spiritual regeneration.
        You are asked to join the Mother-Church, but you ARE
        in the Mother Church, you never left Her. The "mother"
        who tries to attract you is comparable to "the one who
        do not enter by the door of the sheeps enclosure, but
        who climbs from elsewhere, that one is a thief and a
        crook" (Jn 10:1).

        > If the church were merly to let
        > herself be destroyeed by the Soviets in the belief
        > that God would
        > save her, would not then have been an act of
        > presumtion on their
        > part?
        But the Russian Church know as the Moscow Patriarchate
        has been destroyed by the soviets.
        The Orthodox faith has survived in Russia thanks to
        the acts and deeds of the New Martyrs and all the
        clerics and diddidents in prison or camps, and the
        Catacumb Church.
        I would encourage all the members of the list to read
        the history of Russian Church and History of lives of
        New Russian Martyrs. These books will be more
        efficient than all others words exchanged on that
        list, and avoid many questions.

        > Please excuss me for answering these questions but I
        > have always desired to ask them. I wish to know the
        answers so I turn to this list to try and get them. Im
        not MP so dont think that I am just
        > because I desire to know why about something.
        > In Christ Nikolai
        I don't think anything of you Nikoai, neither good or
        bad, MP or not, you are a human being, orthodox, with
        his fears and doubts like all we have, and i respect
        you.
        By the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs, God have mercy
        on us!
        Valentina by the Med Sea.

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      • Kiril Bart
        You might considered that a fantasy if you wish, but there is a record of some bezpassportnik clergy coming here in States,I think in 70 s, which really
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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          You might considered that a fantasy if you wish, but
          there is a record of some bezpassportnik clergy coming
          here in States,I think in 70's, which really puzzled
          me, but it's a fact. Regarding conditions of life in
          USSR I'm not only can imagine, I'm personally knows
          what it was and control of KGB, although it was
          impressive, wasn't as total as you want to present it.
          Those people (bezpassportniki)(passportless) didn't
          get into Institutes didn't get a good jobs, didn't try
          to establish themselves, but rather choose life full
          of troubles and persecution with Christ, to quiet life
          of normal soviet conformist with lenin.
          Regards, Subdeacon Kirill
          --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
          > Dear Subdeacon Kirill:
          >
          > What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life
          > in the USSR was like? There may have been people
          > without passports living in the woods in the 30's
          > and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly
          > move outside of your home if you do not have a
          > passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of
          > the Russian people.
          >
          > I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am
          > saying is that is not for you or me to decide where
          > it applies.
          >
          > In XC,
          >
          > v
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Kiril Bart
          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
          >
          >
          > There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks,
          > who
          > didn't accept soviet passports at all
          > (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in
          > red
          > army etc. About application of that Anathema to
          > those
          > who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
          > those who did participate in communist party or
          > komsomol they are definitely bearing
          > responsibility
          > for their actions, in my opinion.
          > Subdeacon Kirill
          > P.S. I do understand that you are trying to
          > ridicule
          > that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it
          > disappeared, or
          > loose any validity.
          >
          > --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...>
          > wrote:
          > > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or
          > has a
          > > Soviet Passoprt since (I
          > > guess) they also collaborated by way of
          > recognotion
          > > of the Soviet authority?
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
          >


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