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Re: [orthodox-synod] What_does_“dialogue”_really_mean?

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  • Igumeniya Iulianiya
    ... I have a few questions about this belaboured subject of DIALOGUE . The organization in Moscow which claims to be a church does not seem familiar with
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 30, 2001
      klandsberg@... wrote:
      >" On these Internet mailing lists and elsewhere, we
      > repeatedly hear the
      > claim that the time has come for "dialogue" between
      > Zarubezhnaya
      > Tserkov (Z.Ts.) and the Moscow Patriarchate (MP)."

      I have a few questions about this belaboured subject
      of "DIALOGUE".
      The organization in Moscow which claims to be a church
      does not seem familiar with churchly terms (or
      anything else in Orthodoxy!)
      It is surely no news to any of the bishops involved in
      this sad SOBOR that since the Council of 1917-1918
      under Saint Patriarch Tikhon the corrupted and
      apostate church in Moscow has been and still is under
      Anathema, which can be removed ONLY by the Russian
      Orthodox Church which still remains faithful to
      Christ. The Anathema means among other restrictions
      that faithful Orthodox Christians MAY NOT HAVE ANY
      PERMANENTLY. This false "church".. the "M.P". has no
      claim whatsoever on any Orthodox person or Church in
      any place, nor any claim on property which is still
      kept safe by the Russian Orthodox Church whose
      headquarters are in New York City. Every one of the
      past Metropolitans of the Russian Orthodox Church in
      Exile, as well as the present Metropolitan Vitaly has
      faithfully observed the Anathema and refused any
      correspondence or contact with the apostates.
      How then does anyone in the Russian Orthodox Church
      think and speak of a DIALOGUE with a "church" which
      simply does nor exist?
      The only similar dialogue which comes to mind is the
      one which Mother Eve conducted with the serpent. And
      we know how that one turned out, don't we?
      If we truly love ANYONE, a person or a church, we will
      treasure their immortal soul and do all in our power
      to help them avoid eternal death. We will scorn their
      lies and cling to the truth, thus showing them the
      way; we will pity them for their blindness and
      stupidity and we will remain steadfastly on the road
      of Faith in Jesus Christ and we will suffer and even
      accept death if necessary to give the example they
      must follow. Let it not be said at the Judgment that
      we failed to save them, at least by our own example.
      If you love them, in the Name of the Lord Jesus
      Christ, DO NOT JOIN THEM!
      sinful Abbjuliana

      " point to the spiritual rebirth
      > occurring
      > in
      > Russia (presumably because they credit the MP with
      > responsibility for
      > this rebirth) as evidence in support of the need for
      > dialogue;
      > however, it occurs to me that these people are
      > overlooking the most
      > important factor in successful dialogue--mutual
      > trust. In order for
      > dialogue to be productive, each party must have a
      > reasonable
      > expectation that the other party is telling the
      > truth, that he says
      > what he means, that he is sincere, honest, and
      > forthright.
      > Discussions between parties who don't tell the truth
      > are not
      > called "dialogue". They are called negotiations,
      > haggling,
      > bargaining, quibbling, deceit, sham, pretense,
      > duplicity, fraud,
      > treachery, and many other things, but not dialogue.
      > The pro-"dialogue" group will say that the
      > "closed-minded" anti-
      > dialogue group is the cause of the mistrust, because
      > they will not
      > open their eyes to all of the positive evidence that
      > the MP is no
      > longer under the control of government, but is now,
      > they say,
      > actively pursuing the goal of bringing knowledge of
      > Orthodoxy to the
      > Russian people, who were previously deprived of such
      > knowledge by the
      > godless authorities. But I would like to pose a
      > question: What
      > cause have we to trust them? Over the past ten
      > years, the MP has had
      > innumerable opportunities to make a gesture of good
      > faith toward
      > Z.Ts., and, in every case, has failed to do so.
      > First, let us review the opportunity that
      > representatives of the MP
      > had to act with brotherly love in the now-infamous
      > Hebron episode. We
      > have all heard the account of how representatives of
      > the MP were
      > denied access to the monastery by our nuns, in
      > violation, they say,
      > of an international treaty. In this case, the
      > brotherly thing to do,
      > and indeed the decent thing, would have been to call
      > their superiors
      > (the Director of the Jerusalem Mission or the office
      > of the Synod of
      > Bishops), report the violation, and request that the
      > superiors
      > resolve the situation. Such an action would have
      > shown a measure of
      > respect to Z.Ts.'s hierarchs and monastics, who have
      > been the
      > caretakers of these holy places for many decades.
      > Instead, the
      > representatives of the MP called in the Palestinian
      > authorities, who
      > arrived on the scene with police and physically
      > removed aging
      > monastics from the premises. Instead of using the
      > situation as an
      > opportunity to show respect and good will to Z.Ts.,
      > the MP
      > immediately sought a political and quasi-military
      > solution.
      > Another good example of a missed opportunity to make
      > a good-faith
      > gesture is the situation with our parish in Ottawa
      > (and similar
      > situations in a handful of other parishes in North
      > America). When a
      > renegade priest seeks acceptance into the MP and
      > wants to take his
      > parish with him in order to cover up
      > misappropriation of funds or
      > other misdeeds, the MP could, as a good-faith
      > gesture, refuse to
      > accept him. Instead, the MP not only accepts such
      > priests, but aids
      > and abets these individuals, especially if there is
      > a prospective
      > transfer of real-estate ownership involved. One
      > can't help but
      > ask the question�if the MP is so sure that brotherly
      > reunification is
      > necessary and inevitable, why do they bother trying
      > to steal our real
      > estate in advance of such brotherly reunification?
      > Wouldn't it
      > be easier to behave in a Christian manner and treat
      > us with good will
      > until the desired reunification occurs? The obvious
      > answer is that
      > they desire no to embrace us with brotherly love,
      > but to smother and
      > destroy us.
      > Another example of a missed opportunity to make a
      > gesture of good
      > faith is the Glorification of the New Martyrs. This
      > event posed a
      > unique and extraordinary opportunity to show us and
      > the faithful in
      > Russia that they are serious about a brotherly
      > reunification.
      > Instead of holding a "canonization" service for
      > these saints,
      > they could have simply announced that they recognize
      > the
      > glorification of the New Martyrs by Z.Ts. Would
      > this have been a
      > bold move? Would it have run a risk of exposing the
      > MP to criticism
      > in Russia? Certainly. But one would think that
      > they worthy goal of
      > reunification would warrant such boldness and such a
      > risk. Some will
      > answer that the Russian people were craving and
      > demanding a big
      > public celebration. There are plenty of ways in
      > which the MP could
      > have provided the desired celebration (off the top
      > of my head�
      > simultaneous molebni in every church in Russia
      > followed by
      > processions and free distribution of icons of the
      > New Martyrs would
      > have satisfied the desire of people for a solemn and
      > triumphant event
      > to mark the occasion). To heal the pain of 70+
      > years of mistrust, a
      > dramatic gesture is needed, and recognition of our
      > glorification of
      > the New Martyrs would have made every single
      > Zarubezhnik take
      > notice. There are, I am sure, many reasons why the
      > MP did not choose
      > this option. To do this would have been to
      > recognize the Z.Ts. is a
      > legitimate church with a canonically legal right to
      > exist; the MP,
      > however, continues to regard Z.Ts. as a schismatic
      > and illegal
      > entity. Doing this would also have deprived them of
      > their chance to
      > exclude St. Joseph of Petrograd from the list of New
      > Martyrs; his
      > exclusion is essential if the MP is to maintain
      > their defense of the
      > indefensible policy of collaboration with the
      > godless authorities,
      > which we commonly refer to as Sergianism.
      > The course of action I describe above would also
      > have allowed our two
      > groups to avoid the tragic disparity which has now
      > occurred in
      > venerating the Royal Martyrs. For political
      > reasons, the MP chose to
      > glorify the Tsar's family not as martyrs, but as
      > "passionbearers"
      > (strastoterptsy). Many people have said that this
      > distinction is
      > unimportant. However, when the "inevitable"
      > brotherly
      > reunion
      > occurs, what will happen? Will the MP give them a
      > "promotion"? Will
      > we demote them? The MP could have demonstrated
      > their desire for
      > prayerful communion with us by ensuring that our
      > saints are venerated
      > in like ways (perhaps they could have even used our
      > beautifully-
      > written service to the Royal Martyrs). Clearly,
      > they had other
      > objectives which took precedence over their desire
      > for prayerful
      > communion with Z.Ts.
      > The most significant gesture that the MP could make,
      > an option which
      === message truncated ===

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