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  • Kato Hetch
    Hello, I currently have two russian culture forums on a different forum web provider, which I believe are more interesting to use on delphi.com. If anyone is
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 28, 2001
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      Hello,

      I currently have two russian culture forums on a different forum web
      provider, which I believe are more interesting to use on delphi.com.

      If anyone is interested, you need to be registered with delphi.com,
      and it's for free.

      A highly active forum,

      Russia Culture Forum (open to all, and all topics covered);
      http://www.delphi.com/motherrus/start

      The other forum is called:

      The White Russian (structured for the 1st wave Russian Diaspora):
      http://www.delphi.com/WhiteRussian/start

      Delphi forums are simple to use, and you might also find your high
      school or other forums on delphi once you register.

      Konstantin
    • Igumeniya Iulianiya
      Konstantin! there is a sentence in venceslav@ softhome .net writing to you ........ Church Abroad has no official view on it (line 8). ..... Does everybody
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 29, 2001
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        Konstantin! there is a sentence in "venceslav@
        softhome".net writing to you
        ........"Church Abroad has no official view on it
        (line 8). .....
        Does everybody have a short memory ?
        The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA of 1919
        under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the communists
        AND the MP- which defected to join and support the
        Soviets.
        ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4 Metropolitans have
        observed this.
        In Christ
        sinful Abbess Juliana

        __________________________________________________
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        Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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      • kato hetch
        Thank you Igumeniya... I rest my case. It is as simple as it has been since 1919. ANATHEMA Konstantin ... __________________________________________________
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 29, 2001
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          Thank you Igumeniya...

          I rest my case.

          It is as simple as it has been since 1919.

          "ANATHEMA"



          Konstantin
          =========================================

          --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...> wrote:
          >
          > Konstantin! there is a sentence in "venceslav@
          > softhome".net writing to you
          > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on it
          > (line 8). .....
          > Does everybody have a short memory ?
          > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA of
          > 1919
          > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the communists
          > AND the MP- which defected to join and support the
          > Soviets.
          > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4 Metropolitans
          > have
          > observed this.
          > In Christ
          > sinful Abbess Juliana
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
          > http://personals.yahoo.com
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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        • Valentina Grigorieva
          Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from the
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 30, 2001
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            Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
            some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
            19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from the
            original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
            Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
            Moskva 1995.)
            "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
            Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel, but
            really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
            fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
            death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
            posterity in your present life, earthly.
            By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
            approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put anathema
            on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
            belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
            We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
            Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
            relation with such monsters of the human nature -
            "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).

            So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
            interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
            with MP, still under such anathema, is in
            contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
            Tikhon?
            Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
            (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
            impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
            anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
            mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
            the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
            Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
            about any action in that sense coming from His people,
            all is in His hands and His will.
            Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
            will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon and
            with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
            Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that so
            many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
            Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
            Shanghaisky)

            ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
            was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
            commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
            Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
            Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian
            Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
            Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
            --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a écrit : > Thank
            you Igumeniya...
            > I rest my case.
            > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
            > "ANATHEMA"
            > Konstantin
            > =========================================
            > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
            > wrote:
            > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in "venceslav@
            > > softhome".net writing to you
            > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on it
            > > (line 8). .....
            > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
            > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA of
            > > 1919
            > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
            > communists
            > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support the
            > > Soviets.
            > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4 Metropolitans
            > > have
            > > observed this.
            > > In Christ
            > > sinful Abbess Juliana

            ___________________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en français !
            Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
          • Kiril Bart
            Does anybody know if that Monastery is under Bp. Varnava, or it still be under the Synod? Subdeacon Kirill __________________________________________________
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 30, 2001
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              Does anybody know if that Monastery is under Bp.
              Varnava, or it still be under the Synod?
              Subdeacon Kirill


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
              http://personals.yahoo.com
            • StefanVPavlenko@netscape.net
              During the Church services and festivities celebrating the elevation of Archbishop Lavr to Metropolitan, all the commemorations were in proper order and the
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                During the Church services and festivities celebrating the elevation
                of Archbishop Lavr to Metropolitan, all the commemorations were in
                proper order and the name of the Church Abroad exclaimed as ALWAYS.

                If St. Patriarch Tikhon put an Anathema on the Patriarchate of Moscow
                in 1919, he would have (as ridiculous as this terminology is!) have
                put an anathema on himself. The Moscow Patriarchate as it is known
                today came about after his death. His anathema was on all who were
                killing clergy and destroying churches, relics and holy places in the
                name of and as members of the Communist Bolsheviks.
                Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Valentina Grigorieva <valioucha@y...>
                wrote:
                > Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from the
                > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                > Moskva 1995.)
                > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel, but
                > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
                > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
                > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put anathema
                > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).
                >
                > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                > Tikhon?
                > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
                > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
                > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
                > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                > about any action in that sense coming from His people,
                > all is in His hands and His will.
                > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon and
                > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that so
                > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                > Shanghaisky)
                >
                > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian
                > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@y...> a 飲it : > Thank
                > you Igumeniya...
                > > I rest my case.
                > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                > > "ANATHEMA"
                > > Konstantin
                > > =========================================
                > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@Y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in "venceslav@
                > > > softhome".net writing to you
                > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on it
                > > > (line 8). .....
                > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA of
                > > > 1919
                > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                > > communists
                > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support the
                > > > Soviets.
                > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4 Metropolitans
                > > > have
                > > > observed this.
                > > > In Christ
                > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                >
                > ___________________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en franç¡©s !
                > Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
              • Ledkovsky, Nina
                Valentina, You asked: So, if this anathema is still running, it would be interesting to know whether the current dialogue with MP, still under such
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                  Valentina,

                  You asked:

                  "So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                  interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                  with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                  contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                  Tikhon?"

                  -I would have to say NO since all the persons St. Patriarch Tikhon was
                  referring to are dead.

                  ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                  was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                  commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                  Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                  Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian
                  Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                  Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?

                  As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner of the Synod at 93rd street
                  who was at these magnificent services, I can tell you that this is false. We
                  commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.

                  S' Bogom,
                  Nina Ledkovsky



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Valentina Grigorieva [mailto:valioucha@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919

                  Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                  some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                  19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from the
                  original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                  Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                  Moskva 1995.)
                  "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                  Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel, but
                  really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
                  fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                  death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
                  posterity in your present life, earthly.
                  By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                  approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put anathema
                  on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                  belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                  We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                  Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                  relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                  "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).

                  So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                  interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                  with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                  contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                  Tikhon?
                  Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
                  (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                  impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
                  anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                  mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
                  the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                  Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                  about any action in that sense coming from His people,
                  all is in His hands and His will.
                  Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                  will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon and
                  with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                  Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that so
                  many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                  Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                  Shanghaisky)

                  ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                  was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                  commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                  Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                  Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian
                  Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                  Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                  --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a écrit : > Thank
                  you Igumeniya...
                  > I rest my case.
                  > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                  > "ANATHEMA"
                  > Konstantin
                  > =========================================
                  > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in "venceslav@
                  > > softhome".net writing to you
                  > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on it
                  > > (line 8). .....
                  > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                  > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA of
                  > > 1919
                  > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                  > communists
                  > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support the
                  > > Soviets.
                  > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4 Metropolitans
                  > > have
                  > > observed this.
                  > > In Christ
                  > > sinful Abbess Juliana

                  ___________________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en français !
                  Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr



                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod



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                • Kiril Bart
                  Fr. Stefan, as I understand that anathema, it was against bolsheviks and anyone who is collaborating with them...... wouldn t sentence and deeds that follow
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                    Fr. Stefan, as I understand that anathema, it was
                    against bolsheviks and anyone who is collaborating
                    with them...... wouldn't sentence and deeds that
                    follow be falling under that category? "Your joy is
                    our joy and your falls are our falls"?
                    From declaration of Sergius
                    Also as long as this Anathems has been conducted by
                    All Church Sobor, St. Tikhon's lifting of it wouldn't
                    be valid, don t you think so? And it can be lifted
                    only by All Church Sobor of Russia.
                    Subdeacon Kirill

                    --- StefanVPavlenko@... wrote:
                    > During the Church services and festivities
                    > celebrating the elevation
                    > of Archbishop Lavr to Metropolitan, all the
                    > commemorations were in
                    > proper order and the name of the Church Abroad
                    > exclaimed as ALWAYS.
                    >
                    > If St. Patriarch Tikhon put an Anathema on the
                    > Patriarchate of Moscow
                    > in 1919, he would have (as ridiculous as this
                    > terminology is!) have
                    > put an anathema on himself. The Moscow Patriarchate
                    > as it is known
                    > today came about after his death. His anathema was
                    > on all who were
                    > killing clergy and destroying churches, relics and
                    > holy places in the
                    > name of and as members of the Communist Bolsheviks.
                    > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                    http://personals.yahoo.com
                  • niconar20@yahoo.com
                    ... Was not this anthema revoked by the Patriarch himself before his martyric death? I sem to recall St. Tikhon declaring that the Russian Orthodox Church
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Valentina Grigorieva <valioucha@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                      > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                      > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from the
                      > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                      > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                      > Moskva
                      >
                      Was not this anthema revoked by the Patriarch himself before his
                      martyric death? I sem to recall St. Tikhon declaring that the Russian
                      Orthodox Church wanted to live in peace with the Soviet state and
                      that the faithful should be loyal to the new government. I am not
                      personally at all endosing sergianism in any sense. But however, I am
                      still pointing out what a have heard. How could Christians in the
                      USSR continue to practice there faith and yet not be loyal to the
                      Soviets? Does not the Apostle tell us to obey all authority so that
                      we may be at peace with all men to live quit lives? Are not we
                      commanded to render unto ceasar and obey them that govern over us?
                      Why should the Church have to go into the catacombs when there is
                      another alternative which is merly to declare loyalty to the state?
                      For instance, the Polish Church professes loyalty to the Polish
                      government from her citizens, yet we know that the leaders of that
                      nation declare the Orthodox Church there to be an "alien element" AND
                      SURLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HER DESTROYED? The declaration of Met.
                      Sergi was a true travesty but was there any other way that the Church
                      could have survived without it? If the church were merly to let
                      herself be destroyeed by the Soviets in the belief that God would
                      save her, would not then have been an act of presumtion on their
                      part?
                      Please excuss me for answering these questions but I have always
                      desired to ask them. I wish to know the answers so I turn to this
                      list to try and get them. Im not MP so dont think that I am just
                      because I desire to know why about something.
                      In Christ Nikolai
                    • Kiril Bart
                      Nina I m sorry to state, but yoyu do have a distorted vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic there is no Anathemas against Nestorians,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                        Nina I'm sorry to state, but yoyu do have a distorted
                        vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic
                        there is no Anathemas against Nestorians, Iconoclasts,
                        Arians just because they are dead, right? Not so,
                        Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a funny
                        idea, but against those who are collaborating with God
                        hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                        current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                        collaboration with Soviet powers.
                        Subdeacon Kirill
                        --- "Ledkovsky, Nina" <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Valentina,
                        >
                        > You asked:
                        >
                        > "So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                        > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                        > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                        > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                        > Tikhon?"
                        >
                        > -I would have to say NO since all the persons St.
                        > Patriarch Tikhon was
                        > referring to are dead.
                        >
                        > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                        > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                        > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                        > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                        > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                        > (Russian
                        > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                        > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                        >
                        > As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner of
                        > the Synod at 93rd street
                        > who was at these magnificent services, I can tell
                        > you that this is false. We
                        > commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.
                        >
                        > S' Bogom,
                        > Nina Ledkovsky
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Valentina Grigorieva
                        > [mailto:valioucha@...]
                        > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                        >
                        > Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                        > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                        > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from
                        > the
                        > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                        > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                        > Moskva 1995.)
                        > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                        > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel,
                        > but
                        > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
                        > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                        > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
                        > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                        > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                        > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put
                        > anathema
                        > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                        > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                        > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                        > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                        > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                        > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).
                        >
                        > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                        > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                        > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                        > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                        > Tikhon?
                        > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
                        > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                        > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
                        > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                        > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
                        > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                        > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                        > about any action in that sense coming from His
                        > people,
                        > all is in His hands and His will.
                        > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                        > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon
                        > and
                        > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                        > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that
                        > so
                        > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                        > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                        > Shanghaisky)
                        >
                        > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                        > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                        > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                        > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                        > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                        > (Russian
                        > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                        > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                        > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a �crit : >
                        > Thank
                        > you Igumeniya...
                        > > I rest my case.
                        > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                        > > "ANATHEMA"
                        > > Konstantin
                        > > =========================================
                        > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in
                        > "venceslav@
                        > > > softhome".net writing to you
                        > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on
                        > it
                        > > > (line 8). .....
                        > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                        > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA
                        > of
                        > > > 1919
                        > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                        > > communists
                        > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support
                        > the
                        > > > Soviets.
                        > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4
                        > Metropolitans
                        > > > have
                        > > > observed this.
                        > > > In Christ
                        > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                        >
                        >
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                      • Ledkovsky, Nina
                        Kiril, I understand what anathema is. It, simply put, means that those under the anathema are NOT Orthodox. This is what I was taught by Metropolitan Philaret
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                          Kiril,

                          I understand what anathema is.

                          It, simply put, means that those under the anathema are NOT Orthodox. This
                          is what I was taught by Metropolitan Philaret (of blessed memory) as a child
                          and by my grandmother, Valeria Hoecke (memory eternal!) as well.

                          S' Bogom,
                          Nina Ledkovsky

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:47 PM
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919

                          Nina I'm sorry to state, but yoyu do have a distorted
                          vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic
                          there is no Anathemas against Nestorians, Iconoclasts,
                          Arians just because they are dead, right? Not so,
                          Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a funny
                          idea, but against those who are collaborating with God
                          hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                          current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                          collaboration with Soviet powers.
                          Subdeacon Kirill
                          --- "Ledkovsky, Nina" <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Valentina,
                          >
                          > You asked:
                          >
                          > "So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                          > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                          > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                          > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                          > Tikhon?"
                          >
                          > -I would have to say NO since all the persons St.
                          > Patriarch Tikhon was
                          > referring to are dead.
                          >
                          > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                          > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                          > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                          > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                          > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                          > (Russian
                          > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                          > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                          >
                          > As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner of
                          > the Synod at 93rd street
                          > who was at these magnificent services, I can tell
                          > you that this is false. We
                          > commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.
                          >
                          > S' Bogom,
                          > Nina Ledkovsky
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Valentina Grigorieva
                          > [mailto:valioucha@...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                          >
                          > Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                          > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                          > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from
                          > the
                          > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                          > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                          > Moskva 1995.)
                          > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                          > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel,
                          > but
                          > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
                          > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                          > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
                          > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                          > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                          > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put
                          > anathema
                          > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                          > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                          > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                          > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                          > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                          > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).
                          >
                          > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                          > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                          > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                          > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                          > Tikhon?
                          > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
                          > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                          > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
                          > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                          > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
                          > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                          > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                          > about any action in that sense coming from His
                          > people,
                          > all is in His hands and His will.
                          > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                          > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon
                          > and
                          > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                          > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that
                          > so
                          > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                          > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                          > Shanghaisky)
                          >
                          > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                          > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                          > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                          > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                          > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                          > (Russian
                          > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                          > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                          > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a écrit : >
                          > Thank
                          > you Igumeniya...
                          > > I rest my case.
                          > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                          > > "ANATHEMA"
                          > > Konstantin
                          > > =========================================
                          > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in
                          > "venceslav@
                          > > > softhome".net writing to you
                          > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on
                          > it
                          > > > (line 8). .....
                          > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                          > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA
                          > of
                          > > > 1919
                          > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                          > > communists
                          > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support
                          > the
                          > > > Soviets.
                          > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4
                          > Metropolitans
                          > > > have
                          > > > observed this.
                          > > > In Christ
                          > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                          >
                          >
                          ___________________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et
                          > en français !
                          > Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Archives located at
                          > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • V. J. Boitchenko
                          I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a Soviet Passoprt since (I guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion of the Soviet authority? v ...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                            I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a Soviet Passoprt since (I
                            guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion of the Soviet authority?

                            v
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@...>
                            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:46 PM
                            Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


                            > > Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a funny
                            > idea, but against those who are collaborating with God
                            > hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                            > current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                            > collaboration with Soviet powers.
                            > Subdeacon Kirill
                          • Vladimir Kozyreff
                            I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church s teaching,
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                              I would like to support deacon Kiril in adding that anathematising is only
                              stating that a given proposal (or its author) is opposed to the Church's
                              teaching, that is to orthodoxy. Anathematising is synonymous to declaring
                              heretical. Those who hold the proposal in question automatically exclude
                              themselves from the Church, as long as they do not repent.

                              This has nothing to do with the love to the author of the proposal in
                              question. It does not matter whether the he is living or dead.

                              In this particular case, Sergianism has been declared contrary to the
                              Church's teaching, that is heretical. The proposal is that in Soviet times,
                              collaborating temporarily with the godless regime was the (only) way to save
                              the Church. This amounts to declaring that those who repudiated even
                              temporarily Christ in front of men saved the Church. We know that it is the
                              martyrs who saved the Church, not the accomplices of their persecutors.
                              Sergianism implies a wrong understanding of the Church and of the Holy
                              Spirit.

                              " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my
                              Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him
                              before my Father in heaven".

                              The MP has been founded on Sergianism. As long as the MP claims that it
                              knows better than Christ what it had to do to be acknowledged by God, it
                              will remain anathema.

                              This has nothing to do with our condemning or not condemning Met. Sergius.
                              Maybe God has forgiven him already (I hope so and I would pray for it). It
                              is none of our business to condemn him. The Church just states that his
                              stand is intrinsically unorthodox.

                              In this, we have no doubt and we do not contemplate changing our mind. The
                              anathema will run as long as the sergianist concept of the Church remains
                              wrong. This should last for ever. The only way out is to renounce Sergianism
                              in a clear, solemn and unambiguous way.

                              In Christ,

                              VK


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@...>
                              To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:46 PM
                              Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


                              > Nina I'm sorry to state, but yoyu do have a distorted
                              > vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic
                              > there is no Anathemas against Nestorians, Iconoclasts,
                              > Arians just because they are dead, right? Not so,
                              > Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a funny
                              > idea, but against those who are collaborating with God
                              > hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                              > current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                              > collaboration with Soviet powers.
                              > Subdeacon Kirill
                              > --- "Ledkovsky, Nina" <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Valentina,
                              > >
                              > > You asked:
                              > >
                              > > "So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                              > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                              > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                              > > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                              > > Tikhon?"
                              > >
                              > > -I would have to say NO since all the persons St.
                              > > Patriarch Tikhon was
                              > > referring to are dead.
                              > >
                              > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                              > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                              > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                              > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                              > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                              > > (Russian
                              > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                              > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                              > >
                              > > As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner of
                              > > the Synod at 93rd street
                              > > who was at these magnificent services, I can tell
                              > > you that this is false. We
                              > > commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.
                              > >
                              > > S' Bogom,
                              > > Nina Ledkovsky
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Valentina Grigorieva
                              > > [mailto:valioucha@...]
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                              > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                              > >
                              > > Just to precise what we are talking about, hereunder
                              > > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema dated
                              > > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from
                              > > the
                              > > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                              > > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i dokumenty,
                              > > Moskva 1995.)
                              > > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                              > > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel,
                              > > but
                              > > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to the
                              > > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                              > > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from the
                              > > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                              > > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                              > > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put
                              > > anathema
                              > > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                              > > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                              > > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                              > > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                              > > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                              > > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1, 5,13).
                              > >
                              > > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                              > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                              > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                              > > contradiction or not with the words of St Patriarch
                              > > Tikhon?
                              > > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of anathema
                              > > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                              > > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire hope
                              > > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                              > > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members of
                              > > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                              > > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                              > > about any action in that sense coming from His
                              > > people,
                              > > all is in His hands and His will.
                              > > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                              > > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon
                              > > and
                              > > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                              > > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud that
                              > > so
                              > > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                              > > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                              > > Shanghaisky)
                              > >
                              > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl Lavr
                              > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the Church
                              > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                              > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                              > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                              > > (Russian
                              > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                              > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                              > > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a écrit : >
                              > > Thank
                              > > you Igumeniya...
                              > > > I rest my case.
                              > > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                              > > > "ANATHEMA"
                              > > > Konstantin
                              > > > =========================================
                              > > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in
                              > > "venceslav@
                              > > > > softhome".net writing to you
                              > > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on
                              > > it
                              > > > > (line 8). .....
                              > > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                              > > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA
                              > > of
                              > > > > 1919
                              > > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                              > > > communists
                              > > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support
                              > > the
                              > > > > Soviets.
                              > > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4
                              > > Metropolitans
                              > > > > have
                              > > > > observed this.
                              > > > > In Christ
                              > > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                              > >
                              > >
                              > ___________________________________________________________
                              > > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et
                              > > en français !
                              > > Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Archives located at
                              > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                              > http://personals.yahoo.com
                              >
                              >
                              > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
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                            • Kiril Bart
                              There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks, who didn t accept soviet passports at all (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in red army etc. About
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks, who
                                didn't accept soviet passports at all
                                (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in red
                                army etc. About application of that Anathema to those
                                who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
                                those who did participate in communist party or
                                komsomol they are definitely bearing responsibility
                                for their actions, in my opinion.
                                Subdeacon Kirill
                                P.S. I do understand that you are trying to ridicule
                                that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it disappeared, or
                                loose any validity.

                                --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a
                                > Soviet Passoprt since (I
                                > guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion
                                > of the Soviet authority?
                                >
                                > v
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Kiril Bart" <kirbart@...>
                                > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:46 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                >
                                >
                                > > > Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a
                                > funny
                                > > idea, but against those who are collaborating with
                                > God
                                > > hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                                > > current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                                > > collaboration with Soviet powers.
                                > > Subdeacon Kirill
                                >
                                >
                                >



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                              • Igumeniya Iulianiya
                                -Dear Nina Are you really Valerias grandchild? This wonderful pious, intelligent Lady! Vechnaya yeyi pamiat!May her soul rest in peace. Life would be much more
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                  -Dear Nina
                                  Are you really Valerias grandchild? This wonderful
                                  pious, intelligent Lady! Vechnaya yeyi pamiat!May her
                                  soul rest in peace. Life would be much more different
                                  than now. I have wonderful memories of her and her
                                  children and mother, monahinya Feofaniya.
                                  I almost wept, when I read your note. Are you Olgas
                                  daughter? Irinas and Germans niece? Thanks be to God,
                                  that there are still people who DO UNDERSTAND, and
                                  feel like us.













                                  .
                                  <nina!-- "Ledkovsky, Nina"
                                  <nina_ledkovsky@...> wrote:
                                  > Kiril,
                                  >
                                  > I understand what anathema is.
                                  >
                                  > It, simply put, means that those under the anathema
                                  > are NOT Orthodox. This
                                  > is what I was taught by Metropolitan Philaret (of
                                  > blessed memory) as a child
                                  > and by my grandmother, Valeria Hoecke (memory
                                  > eternal!) as well.
                                  >
                                  > S' Bogom,
                                  > Nina Ledkovsky
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:47 PM
                                  > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                  >
                                  > Nina I'm sorry to state, but yoyu do have a
                                  > distorted
                                  > vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic
                                  > there is no Anathemas against Nestorians,
                                  > Iconoclasts,
                                  > Arians just because they are dead, right? Not so,
                                  > Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a
                                  > funny
                                  > idea, but against those who are collaborating with
                                  > God
                                  > hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                                  > current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                                  > collaboration with Soviet powers.
                                  > Subdeacon Kirill
                                  > --- "Ledkovsky, Nina"
                                  > <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Valentina,
                                  > >
                                  > > You asked:
                                  > >
                                  > > "So, if this anathema is still running, it would
                                  > be
                                  > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                                  > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                                  > > contradiction or not with the words of St
                                  > Patriarch
                                  > > Tikhon?"
                                  > >
                                  > > -I would have to say NO since all the persons St.
                                  > > Patriarch Tikhon was
                                  > > referring to are dead.
                                  > >
                                  > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl
                                  > Lavr
                                  > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the
                                  > Church
                                  > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                                  > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                                  > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                                  > > (Russian
                                  > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                                  > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                                  > >
                                  > > As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner
                                  > of
                                  > > the Synod at 93rd street
                                  > > who was at these magnificent services, I can tell
                                  > > you that this is false. We
                                  > > commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.
                                  > >
                                  > > S' Bogom,
                                  > > Nina Ledkovsky
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: Valentina Grigorieva
                                  > > [mailto:valioucha@...]
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                                  > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                  > >
                                  > > Just to precise what we are talking about,
                                  > hereunder
                                  > > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema
                                  > dated
                                  > > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from
                                  > > the
                                  > > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                                  > > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i
                                  > dokumenty,
                                  > > Moskva 1995.)
                                  > > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                                  > > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel,
                                  > > but
                                  > > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to
                                  > the
                                  > > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                                  > > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from
                                  > the
                                  > > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                                  > > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                                  > > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put
                                  > > anathema
                                  > > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                                  > > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                                  > > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                                  > > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                                  > > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                                  > > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1,
                                  > 5,13).
                                  > >
                                  > > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                                  > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                                  > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                                  > > contradiction or not with the words of St
                                  > Patriarch
                                  > > Tikhon?
                                  > > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of
                                  > anathema
                                  > > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                                  > > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire
                                  > hope
                                  > > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                                  > > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members
                                  > of
                                  > > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                                  > > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                                  > > about any action in that sense coming from His
                                  > > people,
                                  > > all is in His hands and His will.
                                  > > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                                  > > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon
                                  > > and
                                  > > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                                  > > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud
                                  > that
                                  > > so
                                  > > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                                  > > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                                  > > Shanghaisky)
                                  > >
                                  > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl
                                  > Lavr
                                  > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the
                                  > Church
                                  > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                                  > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                                  > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                                  > > (Russian
                                  > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                                  > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                                  > > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a �crit : >
                                  > > Thank
                                  > > you Igumeniya...
                                  > > > I rest my case.
                                  > > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                                  > > > "ANATHEMA"
                                  > > > Konstantin
                                  > > > =========================================
                                  > > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in
                                  > > "venceslav@
                                  > > > > softhome".net writing to you
                                  > > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on
                                  > > it
                                  > > > > (line 8). .....
                                  > > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                                  > > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA
                                  > > of
                                  > > > > 1919
                                  > > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                                  > > > communists
                                  > > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > Soviets.
                                  > > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4
                                  > > Metropolitans
                                  > > > > have
                                  > > > > observed this.
                                  > > > > In Christ
                                  > > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  ___________________________________________________________
                                  > > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite
                                  > et
                                  > > en fran�ais !
                                  > > Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Archives located at
                                  > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  === message truncated ===


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                                • Kiril Bart
                                  Nina, I m glad that you had a priviledge to know Vladika Philaret, but you fail to recognize that, simply put, those who do bad things are falling under
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                    Nina, I'm glad that you had a priviledge to know
                                    Vladika Philaret, but you fail to recognize that,
                                    simply put, those who do bad things are falling under
                                    Anathema even in generations after initial ones.
                                    Regards, Subdeacon Kirill

                                    --- "Ledkovsky, Nina" <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Kiril,
                                    >
                                    > I understand what anathema is.
                                    >
                                    > It, simply put, means that those under the anathema
                                    > are NOT Orthodox. This
                                    > is what I was taught by Metropolitan Philaret (of
                                    > blessed memory) as a child
                                    > and by my grandmother, Valeria Hoecke (memory
                                    > eternal!) as well.
                                    >
                                    > S' Bogom,
                                    > Nina Ledkovsky
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Kiril Bart [mailto:kirbart@...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:47 PM
                                    > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: RE: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                    >
                                    > Nina I'm sorry to state, but yoyu do have a
                                    > distorted
                                    > vision on a subject of Anathema. Based on your logic
                                    > there is no Anathemas against Nestorians,
                                    > Iconoclasts,
                                    > Arians just because they are dead, right? Not so,
                                    > Anathema of 1919 was not against Sergius, what a
                                    > funny
                                    > idea, but against those who are collaborating with
                                    > God
                                    > hating regime of communists and abviously apply to
                                    > current MP's hierarchy, which was in full
                                    > collaboration with Soviet powers.
                                    > Subdeacon Kirill
                                    > --- "Ledkovsky, Nina"
                                    > <nina_ledkovsky@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Valentina,
                                    > >
                                    > > You asked:
                                    > >
                                    > > "So, if this anathema is still running, it would
                                    > be
                                    > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                                    > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                                    > > contradiction or not with the words of St
                                    > Patriarch
                                    > > Tikhon?"
                                    > >
                                    > > -I would have to say NO since all the persons St.
                                    > > Patriarch Tikhon was
                                    > > referring to are dead.
                                    > >
                                    > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl
                                    > Lavr
                                    > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the
                                    > Church
                                    > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                                    > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                                    > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                                    > > (Russian
                                    > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                                    > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                                    > >
                                    > > As a member of the Synod Choir and a parishioner
                                    > of
                                    > > the Synod at 93rd street
                                    > > who was at these magnificent services, I can tell
                                    > > you that this is false. We
                                    > > commemorated the Church as we ALWAYS have.
                                    > >
                                    > > S' Bogom,
                                    > > Nina Ledkovsky
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: Valentina Grigorieva
                                    > > [mailto:valioucha@...]
                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:55 PM
                                    > > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                    > >
                                    > > Just to precise what we are talking about,
                                    > hereunder
                                    > > some extracts of St Patriarch Tikhon Anathema
                                    > dated
                                    > > 19/01/1918 (my poor translation into English from
                                    > > the
                                    > > original text in Russian : "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya
                                    > > Tserkov v sovetskoye vremia, Materialy i
                                    > dokumenty,
                                    > > Moskva 1995.)
                                    > > "...Fools, stop your bloodthirsty punishments.
                                    > > Because, what you are now doing is not only cruel,
                                    > > but
                                    > > really satanic acts, for which you are liable to
                                    > the
                                    > > fire of Gehenne in your future life - after your
                                    > > death, and to the terrible curse (anatheme) from
                                    > the
                                    > > posterity in your present life, earthly.
                                    > > By the power given to Us by God, We forbid you to
                                    > > approach the Holy Mysteries of Christ, we put
                                    > > anathema
                                    > > on you, if only you still wear a Christian name or
                                    > > belong to the Orthodox Church from your birth.
                                    > > We intreat you all, loyal member of the Orthodox
                                    > > Church of Christ, not to enter into any kind of
                                    > > relation with such monsters of the human nature -
                                    > > "take the bad people off you" (Corinthiens 1,
                                    > 5,13).
                                    > >
                                    > > So, if this anathema is still running, it would be
                                    > > interesting to know whether the current "dialogue"
                                    > > with MP, still under such anathema, is in
                                    > > contradiction or not with the words of St
                                    > Patriarch
                                    > > Tikhon?
                                    > > Alos, i carefully read the whole service of
                                    > anathema
                                    > > (1rst sunday of the Great Lent), and was very much
                                    > > impressed how it is oriented towards our entire
                                    > hope
                                    > > anf faith in our Lord, we praise our Lord to have
                                    > > mercy on us and strenghten the faithfull members
                                    > of
                                    > > the Orthodox Church of Christ, and also praise our
                                    > > Lord that He enlighten those in heresy. Not a word
                                    > > about any action in that sense coming from His
                                    > > people,
                                    > > all is in His hands and His will.
                                    > > Could anyone on that list explain how a "dialogue"
                                    > > will fit with the Anathema of St Patriarch Tikhon
                                    > > and
                                    > > with the service of the Triumph of Orthodoxy?
                                    > > Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea (very proud
                                    > that
                                    > > so
                                    > > many messages were devoted to our Orthodox French
                                    > > Saint Martin of Tours, so venerated by St Ioann
                                    > > Shanghaisky)
                                    > >
                                    > > ps : i was told that during the service when Vl
                                    > Lavr
                                    > > was elevated to the rank of Metropolitan, the
                                    > Church
                                    > > commemorated was not "Russkaya Zarubejnanay
                                    > > Pravoslavnaya Tserkov" (Russian Church Outside of
                                    > > Russia) but "Russkaya Pravoslavnaya Tserkov"
                                    > > (Russian
                                    > > Orthodox Church - the way MP is commemorated).
                                    > > Could anyone else confirm that "small" detail?
                                    > > --- kato hetch <kato_ny@...> a �crit : >
                                    > > Thank
                                    > > you Igumeniya...
                                    > > > I rest my case.
                                    > > > It is as simple as it has been since 1919.
                                    > > > "ANATHEMA"
                                    > > > Konstantin
                                    > > > =========================================
                                    > > > --- Igumeniya Iulianiya <abbjuliana@...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > Konstantin! there is a sentence in
                                    > > "venceslav@
                                    > > > > softhome".net writing to you
                                    > > > > ........"Church Abroad has no official view on
                                    > > it
                                    > > > > (line 8). .....
                                    > > > > Does everybody have a short memory ?
                                    > > > > The Russian Orthodox Church laid the ANATHEMA
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > 1919
                                    > > > > under Saint Patriarch Tikhon. Against the
                                    > > > communists
                                    > > > > AND the MP- which defected to join and support
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > Soviets.
                                    > > > > ANATHEMA forbids ANY CONTACT!!All 4
                                    > > Metropolitans
                                    > > > > have
                                    > > > > observed this.
                                    > > > > In Christ
                                    > > > > sinful Abbess Juliana
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    ___________________________________________________________
                                    > > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite
                                    > et
                                    > > en fran�ais !
                                    > > Yahoo! Courrier : http://courrier.yahoo.fr
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Archives located at
                                    > > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    === message truncated ===



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                                  • Valentina Grigorieva
                                    ... the Church services and festivities ... Father bless! Feeling a bit like St Thomas, I would kindly ask you to write down the exact words of the way our
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                      --- StefanVPavlenko@... a écrit : > During
                                      the Church services and festivities
                                      > celebrating the elevation
                                      > of Archbishop Lavr to Metropolitan, all the
                                      > commemorations were in
                                      > proper order and the name of the Church Abroad
                                      > exclaimed as ALWAYS.
                                      Father bless!
                                      Feeling a bit like St Thomas, I would kindly ask you
                                      to write down the exact words of the way our Church
                                      was commemorated, not only "AS ALWAYS", as you mention
                                      (and N Ledkosky also said in her post same words "as
                                      always"). Thank you Father.

                                      > If St. Patriarch Tikhon put an Anathema on the
                                      > Patriarchate of Moscow
                                      > in 1919, he would have (as ridiculous as this
                                      > terminology is!) have
                                      > put an anathema on himself. The Moscow Patriarchate
                                      > as it is known
                                      > today came about after his death. His anathema was
                                      > on all who were
                                      > killing clergy and destroying churches, relics and
                                      > holy places in the
                                      > name of and as members of the Communist Bolsheviks.
                                      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                      Thank you Father for reminding us that the
                                      Patriarchate was re-established in 1943. Between 1929
                                      and 1937, there were from 5 to 10 millions deported to
                                      soviet camps, among them monks, nuns, clerics,
                                      bishops. Those were of course no the ones Stalin made
                                      a deal with, but those who died as martyrs for the
                                      Truth.
                                      In such conditions, you understand how it was
                                      extremely difficult for Stalin to gather 3 bishops for
                                      a Council, but he found them, and Serge was elected
                                      Patriarch in 43? It is that Patriarchate who supported
                                      Staline and the Red Army. Until Perestroika, it is the
                                      same "church" and the same structures that denied
                                      officially any persecution against the Church of
                                      Christ and her faithfull memebers, those who sustained
                                      a government who exterminated between 40 and 90
                                      millions of Russian, those who celebrated a panikhida
                                      when Stalin died (pat. Alexis). Nobody contest now
                                      that this "patriarchate" has been under the obedience
                                      of the KGB at least between 1927 until 1990, and still
                                      inflitrate 70 p.cent of its hierarchy. Same percentage
                                      of communists can be found in those ruling the
                                      country.
                                      Now, Lenin's body is still daily visited by thousands
                                      of people under Putin's windows.
                                      About the reflection i read on that list that Pat.
                                      Tikhon denied his anathema against the bolcheviks, i
                                      can say that Pat Tikhon was freed from kail in 1922,
                                      after having recognised "his pas faults" and made a
                                      declaration of loyalty to the soviets. 60 years after,
                                      in june 1980, Fr Dimitri Dudko was also freed from
                                      soviet camps after having "publically denied his
                                      previous religious activities and recognized his
                                      faults". There must have been thousands of such cases
                                      between 1922 and 1980. That soviet system perfectly
                                      knows how to destroy people.
                                      Do you think that in the 90ies, all the communists
                                      suddenly turned into democrats, and all the bishops
                                      who studied in "their" seminaries (since 45, the
                                      Patriarchate was governed by the Council for Religious
                                      Affairs ruled by a person named by Stalin), and served
                                      that frightening system for years suddenly turned into
                                      free bishops loyal to the Church of Christ?
                                      The Catacumb Church existed since 1926, and maybe will
                                      have to exist again.
                                      Valentina by the Mediterranean Sea.

                                      ___________________________________________________________
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                                    • V. J. Boitchenko
                                      Dear Subdeacon Kirill: What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life in the USSR was like? There may have been people without passports living in the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                        Dear Subdeacon Kirill:

                                        What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life in the USSR was like? There may have been people without passports living in the woods in the 30's and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly move outside of your home if you do not have a passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of the Russian people.

                                        I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am saying is that is not for you or me to decide where it applies.

                                        In XC,

                                        v


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Kiril Bart
                                        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919


                                        There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks, who
                                        didn't accept soviet passports at all
                                        (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in red
                                        army etc. About application of that Anathema to those
                                        who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
                                        those who did participate in communist party or
                                        komsomol they are definitely bearing responsibility
                                        for their actions, in my opinion.
                                        Subdeacon Kirill
                                        P.S. I do understand that you are trying to ridicule
                                        that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it disappeared, or
                                        loose any validity.

                                        --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                        > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or has a
                                        > Soviet Passoprt since (I
                                        > guess) they also collaborated by way of recognotion
                                        > of the Soviet authority?
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Valentina Grigorieva
                                        ... orthodox-synod@y..., ... Nikolai, even if there are many priests who could answer you on that list but don t do it, i would say my humble opinion that,
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                          --- niconar20@... a écrit : > --- In
                                          orthodox-synod@y...,
                                          ...
                                          > How could Christians in the
                                          > USSR continue to practice there faith and yet not be
                                          > loyal to the
                                          > Soviets?
                                          ...
                                          > Why should the Church have to go into the catacombs
                                          > when there is
                                          > another alternative which is merly to declare
                                          > loyalty to the state?
                                          Nikolai, even if there are many priests who could
                                          answer you on that list but don't do it, i would say
                                          my humble opinion that, following your reasoning, your
                                          sentence is equal to declare vain the martyrdom of the
                                          New Russian martyrs.

                                          > For instance, the Polish Church professes loyalty to
                                          > the Polish
                                          > government from her citizens, yet we know that the
                                          > leaders of that
                                          > nation declare the Orthodox Church there to be an
                                          > "alien element" AND
                                          > SURLY THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE HER DESTROYED? The
                                          > declaration of Met.
                                          > Sergi was a true travesty but was there any other
                                          > way that the Church
                                          > could have survived without it?
                                          As our blessed Metropolitans and bishops previously
                                          taught us, and as has written Bishop Amvrossy of
                                          Western Europe in his letter dated oct. 2000 addressed
                                          to his flock of Geneva Cathedral (my translation from
                                          the French) : "the hierarchy of the Church of Russia
                                          is the one of the Lie. Lie of a declaration of
                                          so-called loyalty who was actually a pact with the
                                          evil forces. When times smoothed, she did not try to
                                          search the path of spiritual regeneration.
                                          You are asked to join the Mother-Church, but you ARE
                                          in the Mother Church, you never left Her. The "mother"
                                          who tries to attract you is comparable to "the one who
                                          do not enter by the door of the sheeps enclosure, but
                                          who climbs from elsewhere, that one is a thief and a
                                          crook" (Jn 10:1).

                                          > If the church were merly to let
                                          > herself be destroyeed by the Soviets in the belief
                                          > that God would
                                          > save her, would not then have been an act of
                                          > presumtion on their
                                          > part?
                                          But the Russian Church know as the Moscow Patriarchate
                                          has been destroyed by the soviets.
                                          The Orthodox faith has survived in Russia thanks to
                                          the acts and deeds of the New Martyrs and all the
                                          clerics and diddidents in prison or camps, and the
                                          Catacumb Church.
                                          I would encourage all the members of the list to read
                                          the history of Russian Church and History of lives of
                                          New Russian Martyrs. These books will be more
                                          efficient than all others words exchanged on that
                                          list, and avoid many questions.

                                          > Please excuss me for answering these questions but I
                                          > have always desired to ask them. I wish to know the
                                          answers so I turn to this list to try and get them. Im
                                          not MP so dont think that I am just
                                          > because I desire to know why about something.
                                          > In Christ Nikolai
                                          I don't think anything of you Nikoai, neither good or
                                          bad, MP or not, you are a human being, orthodox, with
                                          his fears and doubts like all we have, and i respect
                                          you.
                                          By the prayers of the Holy New Martyrs, God have mercy
                                          on us!
                                          Valentina by the Med Sea.

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                                        • Kiril Bart
                                          You might considered that a fantasy if you wish, but there is a record of some bezpassportnik clergy coming here in States,I think in 70 s, which really
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                            You might considered that a fantasy if you wish, but
                                            there is a record of some bezpassportnik clergy coming
                                            here in States,I think in 70's, which really puzzled
                                            me, but it's a fact. Regarding conditions of life in
                                            USSR I'm not only can imagine, I'm personally knows
                                            what it was and control of KGB, although it was
                                            impressive, wasn't as total as you want to present it.
                                            Those people (bezpassportniki)(passportless) didn't
                                            get into Institutes didn't get a good jobs, didn't try
                                            to establish themselves, but rather choose life full
                                            of troubles and persecution with Christ, to quiet life
                                            of normal soviet conformist with lenin.
                                            Regards, Subdeacon Kirill
                                            --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...> wrote:
                                            > Dear Subdeacon Kirill:
                                            >
                                            > What a fantasy! Can you at least imagine what life
                                            > in the USSR was like? There may have been people
                                            > without passports living in the woods in the 30's
                                            > and 40's. Any time later than that you can hardly
                                            > move outside of your home if you do not have a
                                            > passport. We are speaking of the vast majority of
                                            > the Russian people.
                                            >
                                            > I was not trying to ridicule the anathema. All I am
                                            > saying is that is not for you or me to decide where
                                            > it applies.
                                            >
                                            > In XC,
                                            >
                                            > v
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Kiril Bart
                                            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:57 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ANATHEMA year 1919
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > There is up to our days a group of Catacombniks,
                                            > who
                                            > didn't accept soviet passports at all
                                            > (bezpasportniki), they also refused to serve in
                                            > red
                                            > army etc. About application of that Anathema to
                                            > those
                                            > who did have a soviet passport, I don't know, but
                                            > those who did participate in communist party or
                                            > komsomol they are definitely bearing
                                            > responsibility
                                            > for their actions, in my opinion.
                                            > Subdeacon Kirill
                                            > P.S. I do understand that you are trying to
                                            > ridicule
                                            > that Anathema, but it wouldn't make it
                                            > disappeared, or
                                            > loose any validity.
                                            >
                                            > --- "V. J. Boitchenko" <venceslav@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > I wonder if it applies to everyone who had or
                                            > has a
                                            > > Soviet Passoprt since (I
                                            > > guess) they also collaborated by way of
                                            > recognotion
                                            > > of the Soviet authority?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                            > removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


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