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  • Rev Mark Gilstrap
    Dear list, For our friends consideration and discussion I am raising some points for self-criticism. Nikolaj accuses ROCA (he uses the acronym ROCOR of
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 1, 2001
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      Dear list,

      For our friends' consideration and discussion I
      am raising some points for self-criticism. Nikolaj accuses
      ROCA (he uses the acronym ROCOR of course) of being self-
      righteous. Is it true? Are the following MP accusations
      on target? Are we afraid of truth?

      I have received much grief for allowing *any* airing
      of "anti-October Sobor" viewpoints and so have erred on the
      side of pro-union-with-MP - perhaps in response to the vehement
      backlash these folks exert when they feel their "freedom of
      speech" is restricted on this ROCA list. I must note, in contrast,
      that the response from those "conservative" clergy who have been
      moderated is of a completely different and more understanding,
      and more specifically, of a simpler, less complex nature.

      Since the reincarnation of the Orthodox-ROCOR list it
      seems to me like there has been a dearth of postings here on
      Orthodox-Synod and that this vaccuum has been filled by non-ROCA
      views. However, now that there is that forum where MP and OCA
      clergy are allowed to post freely and conservative ROCA clergy
      are moderated, I think it is time to contract a bit and limit
      this list to ROCA's friends as defined by the list's purpose.
      By this I do not mean to restrict ROCA members' various opinions.
      Perhaps what I am talking about will be more clearly seen in an
      example of what is going to dissappear:

      Last night at about midnight a member submitted a posting
      for distribution. Since this member had joined our ROCA friends
      list only relatively recently (mid January) and has not yet shown
      himself to be a friend of ROCA, his posts are moderated.

      I was not awake when the submission arrived and did not read
      it until this morning when I saw it spouting (in support of Nikolaj)
      a similar but more intense MP party line than Nikolaj's. This gave
      me pause, but just as I was about to approve its distribution, I
      noticed a bunch of other submissions on the same subject. I chose
      to read them before making my decision to approve rather than risk
      distributing the MP party line multiple times in one day on what is
      at least tacitly a ROCA list.

      Well, between this submission at midnight and it's culmination
      before 2am, an entire series of exhanges had already taken place
      between this member and Fr Mikhail Rahr (an MP priest) and our friend
      Nikolaj.

      The result? Fr Mikhail who is *not* free to post his
      propaganda here on the ROCA Synod list, wrote the following and
      unsubscribed. I submit this portion of the entire exchange because
      it is perhaps the most edifying portion of what I read from last
      night (the rest was just propaganda IMO):

      > Dear Fr Alexander, dear Nikolai!
      >
      > Sorry for not posting on <orthodox-synod>, but that list reminds me a
      > little bit of the truly democratic traditions of North Corea under
      > Kim-il-Sung and his son Jung-son-Il, where "democracy" means power of the
      > *whole* people, which is being expressed in the results of the elections
      > there (99-101% vote for the Communist party). And this is why an "MP"
      > priest cannot participate in the PeopleĀ“s Congress of the Great Leader
      > Gill-il-Strap. It would simply disturb the
      > marvelously romantic unanimity of all the anti-sergianists there. So,
      > Nikolai (you are the 1% opposition there), be prepared...

      I wonder if Nikolaj agrees with Fr Mikhail's characterization
      of him as a sergianist?

      This exchange continued and in a posting made about 2 am the
      above mentioned member (whose still unapproved submission was
      merely **less than** 2 hours old) said with zero evidence:

      "> Dear otche Mihaile, blagoslovite.
      > I am not an MP priest but I am not allowed, for evidently the same reason,
      > to participate on that untouchable list. Isn't it amazing how closely and
      > diligently the moderator guards the participants keeping them under the
      > heavy "kolpak" (cover) that, in the words of elder Paisiy of Mt. Athos, not
      > a single bee is able to get in with its nectar, collected from flowers,
      > allowing though every little fly in with its portion of garbage!? I have
      > always wandered why these people are afraid of truth? And another thing that
      > have always puzzled me - How in the World these people who so adamantly
      > anti-communist, anti-KGB and anti-so forth they nevertheless learn and
      > practice those of communist, KGB and so forth worst methods?! The clue,
      > evidently, is in that the source of all these methods and behaviors are of
      > the same old nature - just have different names to confuse good people.
      > We also know from the Gospel that the way we judge others, we will be judged
      > as well. So those who left and right slander others will get their own
      > slander immediately back upon them and they start behaving like the
      > characters of their own slander.

      Who is slandering whom? Again, note the soviet tactic of
      accusing someone of that to which they are opposed.

      This exchange culminated in Nikolaj attempting to post every
      objection (bee's nectar?) these MP members mustered against
      Fr ALexander Lebedev's well crafted response to Nikolaj's
      objections to our own ROCA synod's existance. Honey?,
      garbage?. Who is the fly? Sometimes when I read this stuff
      I feel like I am inside the novel "1984."

      This is the sort of complex fare that I believe this list
      can dispense with. Do you agree?

      Seeking the "people's" voice,

      priest Mark, aka Gill-il-Strap
    • Fr. Gregory Williams
      ... AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! We have better things to do with our time. -- --Fr. Gregory Williams * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1180 Orthodox Way
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 1, 2001
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        >
        > Who is slandering whom? Again, note the soviet tactic of
        > accusing someone of that to which they are opposed.
        >
        > This exchange culminated in Nikolaj attempting to post every
        > objection (bee's nectar?) these MP members mustered against
        > Fr ALexander Lebedev's well crafted response to Nikolaj's
        > objections to our own ROCA synod's existance. Honey?,
        > garbage?. Who is the fly? Sometimes when I read this stuff
        > I feel like I am inside the novel "1984."
        >
        > This is the sort of complex fare that I believe this list
        > can dispense with. Do you agree?
        >
        > Seeking the "people's" voice,
        >
        AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! We have better things to do with our time.
        --
        --Fr. Gregory Williams

        * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
        1180 Orthodox Way
        Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

        Phone: (615) 536-5239
        FAX: (615) 536-5945
        E-mail: frgregory@...
      • Andrea Schulze
        ... Dear Father Mark, Actually it is a pity to have all those many lists: synod, roca, juristictions, paradosis... the topics discussed are more or less the
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 1, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Rev Mark Gilstrap <fr.mark@s...> wrote:
          > Dear list,
          >
          > >
          > > Since the reincarnation of the Orthodox-ROCOR list it
          > seems to me like there has been a dearth of postings here on
          > Orthodox-Synod and that this vaccuum has been filled by non-ROCA
          > views. However, now that there is that forum where MP and OCA
          > clergy are allowed to post freely and conservative ROCA clergy
          > are moderated, I think it is time to contract a bit and limit
          > this list to ROCA's friends as defined by the list's purpose.
          > By this I do not mean to restrict ROCA members' various opinions.

          Dear Father Mark,

          Actually it is a pity to have all those many lists: synod, roca,
          juristictions, paradosis... the topics discussed are more or less the
          same on all of them. In the case of Father Mihail Rahr I think yoou
          are not quite fair to him. He is not an enemy of ROCA or ROCOR (why
          do you make a difference here)- he is just critical to some points in
          the history of ROCA/ROCOR and gives us his arguments. I do not think
          it is neither "propaganda" as you put it nor slander. I follow his
          discourses with Fathers Alexander Lebedeff, Father John Shaw and
          Father John Whitford with great interest. All of them are very well
          informed and it is for me very edifying. I have got a lot to think
          about now and I am sure others think so as well. After all, when else
          does one have the opportunity to get such an information? I do not
          read Russian I have not the means to get hold of all those books,
          letters etc. Here I get the important things with commentaries from
          educated clergy whom I respect very much.
          Why should we in ROCA/ROCOR be afraid of these discussions? History
          is always a question of interpretation. Time goes by and some things
          are seen in a different light, from another angle. Why should we be
          afraid? we are not hiding anything - we believe in ROCOR being a
          ligitimate canonical Russian Orthodox Church. What is the use of an
          exclusive forum when you do not admit other points of view? And
          indeed, I am very much surprised that a native American deprives
          someone the freedom of speech.
          I think it extremely fair of father Alexander Lebedeff, who has done
          so much to edify us converts all over the world via his postings that
          he allows different points of view on his jurisdictions list. If you
          do not like a certain posting - you are the moderator! Why silence
          him or her? Give an adequate answer or lead the discussion into the
          rifht direction. But making accusations against someone and not give
          him the chance to answer is just not right. At least I think so.


          Anastasia

          > The result? Fr Mikhail who is *not* free to post his
          > propaganda here on the ROCA Synod list, wrote the following and
          > unsubscribed.

          > >
          > Who is slandering whom? Again, note the soviet tactic of
          > accusing someone of that to which they are opposed.
          >
          >
          >
          > Seeking the "people's" voice,
          >
          > priest Mark, aka Gill-il-Strap
        • fr.mark@stjamesok.org
          ... the ... I disagree that the topics are more or less the same. True one can find teh same contention provoking topics on each, but that is what I am trying
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 1, 2001
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            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Andrea Schulze" <anastasia_schulze@y...>
            wrote:

            > Actually it is a pity to have all those many lists: synod, roca,
            > juristictions, paradosis... the topics discussed are more or less
            the
            > same on all of them.

            I disagree that the topics are more or less the same. True
            one can find teh same contention provoking topics on each,
            but that is what I am trying to change.

            I think I also disagree with the pitiableness. As Fr
            Gregory sais, we don't have time for all this contention.

            Fr Alexander created the jurisdictions list to draw away
            the unedifying (to most) interjurisdictional debate from
            the main ORTHODOX list (@...). From what
            you say Fr John allows (and maybe enjoys?) such discussions
            on his ROCOR list and there's nothing wrong with that, but
            can we not have a place free of this tension of constant
            dialectic between Eastern Catholics, Moscow Patriarchate
            or whatever? Is ROCA such a limited interest group
            that we have nothing to discuss or disseminate amongst
            ourselves? I created orthodox-synod nearly ten years
            ago as the first sublist of the ORTHODOX list and as a
            refuge from this fare which is available on so many other
            forums as you have noted. Especially before a Great Feast
            such fare always degrades - to the joy of whom?

            priest Mark
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