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[orthodox-synod] Fwd: "Book Review Section," 25 July

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  • LJames6034@aol.com
    Since it is unlikely The NY Times will publish this, and, since it deals with a set of principles with which the List (sometimes) deals, I thought it not
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 5, 1999
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      Since it is unlikely The NY Times will publish this, and, since it deals with
      a set of principles with which the List (sometimes) deals, I thought it not
      robbery to send it on to y'all.

      Obviously, I have real reservations about Bishop Augustine of Hippo.


      Father Andrew
    • emrys`nz
      I did not know that poor St Augustine was the origin of the Western pipeline theory of Apostolic Succession. I imagine that one day the Icon Police will come
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 5, 1999
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        I did not know that poor St Augustine was the origin of the Western pipeline
        theory of Apostolic Succession. I imagine that one day the Icon Police will
        come and remove his icon from my church?

        Fr Ambrose
        ~*~*~*~*~*


        -----Original Message-----
        From: LJames6034@... <LJames6034@...>


        >Since it is unlikely The NY Times will publish this, and, since it deals
        with
        >a set of principles with which the List (sometimes) deals, I thought it not
        >robbery to send it on to y'all.
        >
        >Obviously, I have real reservations about Bishop Augustine of Hippo.
        >
        >
        >Father Andrew
      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        Concerning St. Augustine, it can be said that his views have been interpreted over the centuries in various ways, and often distorted both by supporters and
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 5, 1999
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          Concerning St. Augustine, it can be said that his views have been
          interpreted over the centuries in various ways, and often distorted both
          by supporters and detractors. However, he is listed as a Saint in all of
          the calendars of the Russian Orthodox Church, and in the Greek collection
          called "The Crown of the Year of the Orthodox Church", published by Bishop
          Matthaios Lagges, in the hierarchy headed by Archbishop Chrysostomos, and
          now used extensively among Greek Orthodox, there is a Tropar and Kondak
          for St. Augustine on p. 396.
          It is possible not to agree with the theologoumena of Saints,
          without having to deny their sanctity. Note, for example, the disputes
          between St. Joseph of Volokalamsk and St. Nil Sorsky--both of them
          subsequently canonized by the Russian Church.
          Yours in Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • LJames6034@aol.com
          I did not say he was NOT a saint. What I questioned is how one could have affection for such a person. He is, after all, the origin of the Calvinistic
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 5, 1999
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            I did not say he was NOT a saint. What I questioned is how one could have
            "affection" for such a person.

            He is, after all, the origin of the Calvinistic notion that only the Elect go
            to heaven. The rest of us go to hell, and we comprise the vast majority.

            The smug self-righteousness to be found among Dutch Calvinists (in Grand
            Rapids, MI, where I was the patriarchal priest) is the fruit borne of the
            thinking of St. Augustine of Hippo.

            I remember a pretty child (Eurocentrically speaking) who is blond-haired,
            blue-eyed, and Dutch looking. She was in my World History Class at
            Davenport College, Grand Rapids.

            "I believe in total depravity," she said.

            I walked over to her, looked into her little Dutch face and said: "Funny,
            you don't look totally depraved to me."

            I don't think she got it. It's all the rest of us who are totally depraved.
            The Elect are better than we. They do not even owe us the politeness we are
            wont to give to dogs.

            I doubt many of us could hold Augustine in great affection. He was too
            rigid. He was humorless, like a great many Southern Baptist and other
            Calvinist ministers.

            I suppose it must be the comtemplation of all that suffering in Hell? No.
            It couldn't be that. They don't think they are going. It's you and me.



            Father Andrew
          • LJames6034@aol.com
            I forgot to mention to you that Paul Inglesby was the founder of the Anglican/Orthodox Society, in England, and, before he gave up and was baptized by Greek
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 8, 1999
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              I forgot to mention to you that Paul Inglesby was the founder of the
              Anglican/Orthodox Society, in England, and, before he gave up and was
              baptized by Greek Old Calendarists, that Society was responsible for the
              conversion of some 45 Anglicans to Orthodoxy. Not surprisingly, the
              Anglicans came to look upon it (and him) as a threat.

              Paul is now attached to the godless commies of the Moscow Patriarchate, via
              Anthony Bloom. Archbishop Anthony, suprisingly, lets Paul and his wife
              reserve a consecrated Lamb in their home chapel. Apparently, Paul
              administers Holy Communion to Himself and Anna, with Anthony Bloom's consent.

              My question is: From what Jesut school did Archbishop Anthony graduate?
              (I, myself, graduated from Xavier University, Cincinnati, which, by some
              small chance, is a Jesuit school. That's how I recognize their thinking so
              readily.)
            • emrys`nz
              Father Andrew, You are being naughty! Given Paul Inglesby s background, his present situation and his age, the blessing from Archbp Anthony is not without
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 8, 1999
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                Father Andrew,

                You are being naughty! Given Paul Inglesby's background, his present
                situation and his age, the blessing from Archbp Anthony is not without both
                common sense and charity.

                Fr Ambrose
                who never had even the slightest contact with Jesuits, apart from once
                trying (unsuccessfully) to convert a Maltese one!
                ~*~*~*~*~*



                -----Original Message-----
                From: LJames6034@... <LJames6034@...>


                >I forgot to mention to you that Paul Inglesby was the founder of the
                >Anglican/Orthodox Society, in England, and, before he gave up and was
                >baptized by Greek Old Calendarists, that Society was responsible for the
                >conversion of some 45 Anglicans to Orthodoxy. Not surprisingly, the
                >Anglicans came to look upon it (and him) as a threat.
                >
                >Paul is now attached to the godless commies of the Moscow Patriarchate, via
                >Anthony Bloom. Archbishop Anthony, suprisingly, lets Paul and his wife
                >reserve a consecrated Lamb in their home chapel. Apparently, Paul
                >administers Holy Communion to Himself and Anna, with Anthony Bloom's
                consent.
                >
                >My question is: From what Jesut school did Archbishop Anthony graduate?
                >(I, myself, graduated from Xavier University, Cincinnati, which, by some
                >small chance, is a Jesuit school. That's how I recognize their thinking so
                >readily.)
                >
              • Stephen Shott
                ... I may well be wrong, but I don t think that Total Depravity means that one is totally depraved , but only that one cannot help but sin, as a result of
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 9, 1999
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                  At 9:32 PM -0400 on 5/8/99, Father Andrew wrote:

                  >I remember a pretty child (Eurocentrically speaking) who is blond-haired,
                  >blue-eyed, and Dutch looking. She was in my World History Class at
                  >Davenport College, Grand Rapids.
                  >
                  >"I believe in total depravity," she said.
                  >
                  >I walked over to her, looked into her little Dutch face and said: "Funny,
                  >you don't look totally depraved to me."
                  >
                  >I don't think she got it. It's all the rest of us who are totally depraved.
                  > The Elect are better than we. They do not even owe us the politeness we are
                  >wont to give to dogs.

                  I may well be wrong, but I don't think that Total Depravity means
                  that one is "totally depraved", but only that one cannot help but
                  sin, as a result of original sin.

                  It was my understanding of this Calvinist doctrine that *all* are
                  totally depraved (i.e., cannot help but sin), but that the elect, for
                  whom (and only for whom) Christ died, are saved from damnation by
                  God's irresistible Grace (i.e., they cannot help but be saved,
                  because God has chosen them). Those that are not among the elect (the
                  reprobate) are justly damned for their sins which they could not help
                  but commit.

                  Curious, really.

                  Stephen.
                  --
                  Stephen Shott, Email: Stephen.Shott@...
                  WWW: http://www.pobox.com/~stephen.shott
                  (Includes PGP public key)
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