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Fond du Lac, St Silvanus & a Fight Song (Was ...)

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  • orthodixie@aol.com
    ... Da! As in Fond of Lace. ... Goodness me! I must be slipping! True enough. Though the two original buildings were always commonly referred to as The
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 27, 2001
      Fr Gregory Williams, himself a Nahotah grad, corrects me:

      > BTW it's Fond du Lac!

      Da! As in Fond of Lace.

      > No fair! It was dedicated to St. Silvanus (pope of Rome, no less!).

      Goodness me! I must be slipping! True enough. Though the two original
      buildings were always commonly referred to as "The Red Chapel" and "The Blue
      House."

      Not sure what they did about St Silvanus after the name change.

      At least I remember the Nashotah fight song:

      "On Nashotah, down with all those liberal Protestants ...
      Our position, on tradition, is our best defense ... Hail Mary!
      On Nashotah, sacerdotal catholic liturgies ...
      High Churchmanship leads us to victory!"

      (Okay, okay ... I'll go back to lurking now.)


      Fr Joseph Huneycutt
      St Nicholas Church (ROCOR)
      Fletcher, NC
      http://www.stnicholasparish.org
    • The Stephens
      Well, just for fun. 40 years ago I was unfortunately an adult. I was also at that time a life-long Anglican- Oxford Movement sort. Does anyone remember
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 27, 2001
        Well, just for fun.
        40 years ago I was unfortunately an adult. I was also at that time a
        life-long Anglican-"Oxford Movement" sort. Does anyone remember Bishop
        Weller of Fond du Lac? For a moment remember that name. Also, during the
        early days of the past Century there was a "Russian" Bishop, who by birth
        was a Levantine Syrian--Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny (remember that name too,
        please). At the turn of that Century there was an interest on the parts of
        Orthodox Bishops ( and I might add that "Traditional Orthodox" was an
        unknown at that time) concerning certain "high church" Anglicans who really
        seemed to be interested in rectifying the errors of the RC's and
        Protestants--and who seemed to want to become "Orthodox". In every case
        there was disappointment on the parts of the Orthodox Bishops. In the case
        of Bishop Raphael, who had a close relationship with a "Wandering
        Bishop--Episcopi Vigantis, (I think, are the Latin terms) ultimately
        denounced him as being not substantial (I think he was the Matthew
        succession of Wandering Bishops). And as far as Bishop Weller and his
        followers, it seems they were more interested in "Catholicising" Anglicanism
        from a Western "RC" perspective. Remembering those names from above, my
        given name was "Raphael Weller", for whatever that's worth, and actually
        served as the "spring-board" that ultimately led me to Orthodoxy.

        If I look hard enough I might find a photo similar to that described in
        earlier posts of Orthodox and Anglicans in Fod du Lac and maybe even one
        with St. Tikhon. But as an Anglican my collection of photos had a rather
        pre-eminent photo of "Leonty", who I understand was commemorated by Vladyka
        St. John of San Francisco.

        I do think time changed many things, including our mutual respect among the
        various Orthodox "jurisdictions", became something of the past. It's
        unfortunate how we Orthodox grow (or degenerated) to "hate" one another.

        Some nights I still have dreams of my "home" Anglican parish. My ultimate
        departure from Anglicanism was over my Bishop not allowing me to go to
        Nashotah House. He wanted me to go to "Virginia"! For the former "high
        churchmen" you know what a "curse" that would have been.

        So, now, many of us are in ROCA--after years of struggling to get home. And,
        as with any TRUE family, we begin to see the "warts" on each other's noses.
        I sometimes wonder what goes through my matushka's mind when she looks at me
        and remembers when I was 24 years old! I come from a family whose faces
        begin to fall down on their chests when they get to be 60--as I am. Give me
        maybe 3 more years and you will have to lift my "belly button" up in order
        to find my face!

        Please forgive me for the offenses I have directed at you, my "family". I
        forgot where my face was when trying to look at yours. All I saw when I
        looked at you was a belly button ,not realizing it was my own!

        Well, so much for the "smells and bells" that got me here!
        Love to all of you,
        Fr. Seraphim Stephens (alias Raphael Weller)

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <orthodixie@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 10:21 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fond du Lac, St Silvanus & a Fight Song (Was ...)


        > Fr Gregory Williams, himself a Nahotah grad, corrects me:
        >
        > > BTW it's Fond du Lac!
        >
        > Da! As in Fond of Lace.
        >
        > > No fair! It was dedicated to St. Silvanus (pope of Rome, no less!).
        >
        > Goodness me! I must be slipping! True enough. Though the two original
        > buildings were always commonly referred to as "The Red Chapel" and "The
        Blue
        > House."
        >
        > Not sure what they did about St Silvanus after the name change.
        >
        > At least I remember the Nashotah fight song:
        >
        > "On Nashotah, down with all those liberal Protestants ...
        > Our position, on tradition, is our best defense ... Hail Mary!
        > On Nashotah, sacerdotal catholic liturgies ...
        > High Churchmanship leads us to victory!"
        >
        > (Okay, okay ... I'll go back to lurking now.)
        >
        >
        > Fr Joseph Huneycutt
        > St Nicholas Church (ROCOR)
        > Fletcher, NC
        > http://www.stnicholasparish.org
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • CATHERINE
        Fr. Seraphim- We have similar backgrounds, although I am a bit younger than you are I think, except that I wasn t a priest in the Anglican church- I was a
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 28, 2001
          Fr. Seraphim- We have similar backgrounds, although I am a bit
          younger than you are I think, except that I wasn't a priest in the
          Anglican church- I was a "lay professional" with a theological degree
          (went to General). Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) this was
          just at the beginning of women's ordination, and I stuck with it long
          enough to endure Bishop Spong (my bishop) and his craziness, non-
          sexist language, practicing homosexual priests, etc. Clericalism was
          rampant too- lay professionals were constantly pressured to be
          ordained (either sex), and opportunities for service in the church
          dwindled for laity. Now I am ROCOR (Orthodox 10 years), and don't
          need to tell you why. I am concerned with two things in Orthodoxy,
          however. One is the lack of interest on the part of many hierarchs
          and priests in quality religious education for children. Since this
          was my field, this was a shock. The other is lack of opportunities
          for women to serve in the church (not counting making pierogis,
          cleaning, etc.) I have seen great reluctance among the clergy to use
          educated women- perhaps they feel threatened? I doubt that any of us
          want to be priests, but some do have a desire and calling to do other
          things within the church. It is deeply saddening to feel the church
          rejects your gifts and abilities because of your sex. I hope that in
          coming years the hierarchy will look at this more carefully, and
          perhaps we won't have a repeat of what happened with women in the
          Episcopal Church. Thanks for listening!-- In orthodox-synod@y..., "
          The Stephens" <fr.seraphim@h...> wrote:
          > Well, just for fun.
          > 40 years ago I was unfortunately an adult. I was also at that time
          a
          > life-long Anglican-"Oxford Movement" sort. Does anyone remember
          Bishop
          > Weller of Fond du Lac? For a moment remember that name. Also,
          during the
          > early days of the past Century there was a "Russian" Bishop, who by
          birth
          > was a Levantine Syrian--Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny (remember that
          name too,
          > please). At the turn of that Century there was an interest on the
          parts of
          > Orthodox Bishops ( and I might add that "Traditional Orthodox" was
          an
          > unknown at that time) concerning certain "high church" Anglicans
          who really
          > seemed to be interested in rectifying the errors of the RC's and
          > Protestants--and who seemed to want to become "Orthodox". In every
          case
          > there was disappointment on the parts of the Orthodox Bishops. In
          the case
          > of Bishop Raphael, who had a close relationship with a "Wandering
          > Bishop--Episcopi Vigantis, (I think, are the Latin terms) ultimately
          > denounced him as being not substantial (I think he was the Matthew
          > succession of Wandering Bishops). And as far as Bishop Weller and
          his
          > followers, it seems they were more interested in "Catholicising"
          Anglicanism
          > from a Western "RC" perspective. Remembering those names from
          above, my
          > given name was "Raphael Weller", for whatever that's worth, and
          actually
          > served as the "spring-board" that ultimately led me to Orthodoxy.
          >
          > If I look hard enough I might find a photo similar to that
          described in
          > earlier posts of Orthodox and Anglicans in Fod du Lac and maybe
          even one
          > with St. Tikhon. But as an Anglican my collection of photos had a
          rather
          > pre-eminent photo of "Leonty", who I understand was commemorated
          by Vladyka
          > St. John of San Francisco.
          >
          > I do think time changed many things, including our mutual respect
          among the
          > various Orthodox "jurisdictions", became something of the past.
          It's
          > unfortunate how we Orthodox grow (or degenerated) to "hate" one
          another.
          >
          > Some nights I still have dreams of my "home" Anglican parish. My
          ultimate
          > departure from Anglicanism was over my Bishop not allowing me to go
          to
          > Nashotah House. He wanted me to go to "Virginia"! For the former
          "high
          > churchmen" you know what a "curse" that would have been.
          >
          > So, now, many of us are in ROCA--after years of struggling to get
          home. And,
          > as with any TRUE family, we begin to see the "warts" on each
          other's noses.
          > I sometimes wonder what goes through my matushka's mind when she
          looks at me
          > and remembers when I was 24 years old! I come from a family whose
          faces
          > begin to fall down on their chests when they get to be 60--as I
          am. Give me
          > maybe 3 more years and you will have to lift my "belly button" up
          in order
          > to find my face!
          >
          > Please forgive me for the offenses I have directed at you, my
          "family". I
          > forgot where my face was when trying to look at yours. All I saw
          when I
          > looked at you was a belly button ,not realizing it was my own!
          >
          > Well, so much for the "smells and bells" that got me here!
          > Love to all of you,
          > Fr. Seraphim Stephens (alias Raphael Weller)
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: <orthodixie@a...>
          > To: <orthodox-synod@y...>
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 10:21 AM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Fond du Lac, St Silvanus & a Fight Song
          (Was ...)
          >
          >
          > > Fr Gregory Williams, himself a Nahotah grad, corrects me:
          > >
          > > > BTW it's Fond du Lac!
          > >
          > > Da! As in Fond of Lace.
          > >
          > > > No fair! It was dedicated to St. Silvanus (pope of Rome, no
          less!).
          > >
          > > Goodness me! I must be slipping! True enough. Though the two
          original
          > > buildings were always commonly referred to as "The Red Chapel"
          and "The
          > Blue
          > > House."
          > >
          > > Not sure what they did about St Silvanus after the name change.
          > >
          > > At least I remember the Nashotah fight song:
          > >
          > > "On Nashotah, down with all those liberal Protestants ...
          > > Our position, on tradition, is our best defense ... Hail Mary!
          > > On Nashotah, sacerdotal catholic liturgies ...
          > > High Churchmanship leads us to victory!"
          > >
          > > (Okay, okay ... I'll go back to lurking now.)
          > >
          > >
          > > Fr Joseph Huneycutt
          > > St Nicholas Church (ROCOR)
          > > Fletcher, NC
          > > http://www.stnicholasparish.org
          > >
          > >
          > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • Fr. Gregory Williams
          God bless you, Catherine (whoever you areŠ please let us know!). You must be in the wrong parish or something. Here (and most places I ve been) women do
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 28, 2001
            God bless you, Catherine (whoever you areŠ please let us know!). You
            must be in the wrong parish or something. Here (and most places I've
            been) women do LOTS of the work. I don't know where we would be
            without them. Betcha at least 75% of parish bookstores are run by
            women (including ours), much of the cleaning and maintenance work,
            MANY women the backbone of the singing in their parishesŠ and on and
            on. If you're frustrated, consider life in the outback!
            --
            --Fr. Gregory Williams

            * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            1180 Orthodox Way
            Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

            Phone: (615) 536-5239
            FAX: (615) 536-5945
            E-mail: frgregory@...
          • Vladimir Boikov
            on. If you re frustrated, consider life in the outback! -- --Fr. Gregory Williams Dear Fr Gregory, We have enough Aborigines in the Outback to deal with.
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 28, 2001
              on. If you're frustrated, consider life in the outback!
              --
              --Fr. Gregory Williams


              Dear Fr Gregory,
              We have enough Aborigines in the Outback to deal with. Please counsel
              people to go to the "Deep South," or something similar in the US. Our
              Immigration laws are quite strict here in Australia! ;-)
              In Christ,
              Fr Vladimir Boikov


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com
              ... An interesting point in this regard. In the Church of the Nazarene (quick definition: Nazarenes are like conservative Methodists with Baptist tendencies),
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 28, 2001
                Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:

                >Here (and most places I've
                > been) women do LOTS of the work. I don't know where we would be
                > without them.

                An interesting point in this regard. In the Church of the Nazarene
                (quick definition: Nazarenes are like conservative Methodists with
                Baptist tendencies), they have always allowed women to be ordained,
                and to serve in any capacity.

                When this was still a new thing, about 20% of Nazarene parishes had
                women pastors. However, by the time I was a kid, it was all but
                unheard of... not because of a sudden rise of patriarchalism or
                sexism, but simply because most women were not interested in a
                pastors job. Most Nazarene women ministers do things somewhat
                analogous to what women do in the Orthodox Church (music, children's
                ministry, women's ministry, etc...), but there seems to be little
                interest in taking on the fatherly role of pastoring a church.

                The Salvation Army (another holiness denomination with similar
                beliefs to the Nazarenes) has the highest percentage of woman
                ministers of any denomination, because every "officer" (i.e. ordained
                minister) must also be married to an "officer". So if a man is a
                major, his wife is also a major. In actual practice, in the context
                of parish life (aside form their duties in their many social
                ministries) these women officers serve in capacities not unlike those
                of matushki.
              • Ackerly, Olga
                It is appalling to me to see the ugly word feminism peak its head in an Orthodox thread. Women have always had a major role to play in the Orthodox church,
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 29, 2001
                  It is appalling to me to see the ugly word "feminism" peak its head in an
                  Orthodox thread. Women have always had a major role to play in the Orthodox
                  church, but there was never any need for power or recognition. In our ugly day
                  and age, however, women are brainwashed into taking on the role of men, and in
                  some religions, that even translates into entering the altar!- something that is
                  considered blasphemous in the Orthodox church and I hope will never be
                  entertained even as a remote possibility. Perhaps those interested in the highly
                  destructive "feminist movement" should research its roots and discover that the
                  path to feminism was laid by Marx and his collaborators, not by "the people" as
                  is erroneously believed. Here is a brief quote from my book, which I hope will
                  stimulate further research, all available in libraries. Enjoy!

                  "Some of the roots to Lenin's hateful policies can be seen in the writings of
                  one of his predecessors, Karl Heinzen, a fierce radical revolutionary, who
                  helped plant seeds for that with which we have to contend with to this day,
                  including the use of chemical warfare for terrorism. In the middle of the 19th
                  century, Heinzen helped found such organizations and publications as the Society
                  for the Diffusion of Radical Principles, The Union of Radicalism in North
                  America, the Freethinker, The Pioneer, Society for the Propagation of Feminist
                  Principles [he was one of the originators of the Feminist Movement], Communism
                  and Socialism and Women's Rights and Sexual Relations. His collaborators at
                  various stages of his life, included Karl Marx, members of the Forty Eighters,
                  G. Struve, H. Hecker, K. Schmemann of Detroit, and W. Weitling and his Christian
                  Communism. He also wrote The Importance of Secular Public Education and
                  Separation of Church and State. Heinzen preached a hate and terrorist slaughter
                  similar to that of Lenin..."

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: frjohnwhiteford@... [ mailto:frjohnwhiteford@...
                  <mailto:frjohnwhiteford@...> ]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 10:51 PM
                  > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: anti-feminism?
                  >
                  >
                  > Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
                  >
                  > >Here (and most places I've
                  > > been) women do LOTS of the work. I don't know where we would be
                  > > without them.
                  >
                  > An interesting point in this regard. In the Church of the Nazarene
                  > (quick definition: Nazarenes are like conservative Methodists with
                  > Baptist tendencies), they have always allowed women to be ordained,
                  > and to serve in any capacity.
                  >
                  > When this was still a new thing, about 20% of Nazarene parishes had
                  > women pastors. However, by the time I was a kid, it was all but
                  > unheard of... not because of a sudden rise of patriarchalism or
                  > sexism, but simply because most women were not interested in a
                  > pastors job. Most Nazarene women ministers do things somewhat
                  > analogous to what women do in the Orthodox Church (music, children's
                  > ministry, women's ministry, etc...), but there seems to be little
                  > interest in taking on the fatherly role of pastoring a church.
                  >
                  > The Salvation Army (another holiness denomination with similar
                  > beliefs to the Nazarenes) has the highest percentage of woman
                  > ministers of any denomination, because every "officer" (i.e. ordained
                  > minister) must also be married to an "officer". So if a man is a
                  > major, his wife is also a major. In actual practice, in the context
                  > of parish life (aside form their duties in their many social
                  > ministries) these women officers serve in capacities not unlike those
                  > of matushki.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
                  >
                  >
                • nanogram27@aol.com
                  In a message dated 3/29/01 6:39:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, ackerlyo@umkc.edu writes:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 29, 2001
                    In a message dated 3/29/01 6:39:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                    ackerlyo@... writes:

                    << It is appalling to me to see the ugly word "feminism" peak its head in an
                    Orthodox thread. Women have always had a major role to play in the Orthodox
                    church, but there was never any need for power or recognition. >>

                    Please forgive me, I usually just observe and read the posts on this list so
                    I can learn, but I am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy and know very
                    little. However, I felt I needed to respond to this post from my point of
                    view and because I come from a Catholic background. The statement "never
                    need power or recognition" is the issue. In the days before I even knew
                    about the Orthodox Church, (and post Vatican II) I could never understand why
                    the women in the church wanted recognition for what they were doing. I also
                    noticed another interesting phenomena. These women had little regard for
                    Mary as a role model. In earlier days, women performed many services for the
                    church, and were not often recognized, nor did they seek recognition and had
                    a spirit of humility. I can only speak from the churches that I used to
                    attend, but the role of women has changed dramatically in many Catholic
                    churches. We now have altar girls, women are Eucharistic Ministers, there is
                    a big push for inclusive language, several parishes have liturgists, who are
                    women who have a huge role in the parish in regard to the liturgy and other
                    matters, and in one church they have a nun who occasionally gives the homily
                    which is forbidden but it happens. Unfortunately, in my opinion, this is the
                    result of the feminist movement and has caused tremendous erosion. Thank
                    God, this is not present in the Orthodox church (at least as far as I know!)
                    Again, the issue is not whether women are involved, but whether they are
                    involved to be recognized.
                    "Love humility and we shall see the glory of God. Without humility thre is
                    nothing in a man but darkness."

                    Please forgive me if this offends anyone.
                    Soon to be Anastasia
                  • janie pyle
                    Soon to be Anastasia, I agree with you on the issue of women - there are many things we do and will continue to do. One of the things I first noticed in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 29, 2001
                      Soon to be Anastasia, I agree with you on the issue
                      of women - there are many things we do and will
                      continue to do. One of the things I first noticed in
                      orthodoxy after coming from a protestant background
                      was that men were actually involved in services and in
                      running things (depending on the size of the
                      parish). In most protestant groups I knew women did
                      most of the work except for the preaching. It seems
                      that Orthodoxy requires men to assume a role that
                      gives a balance to the structure of the Church. I
                      find that reassuring. (Just so y'all know I'm kosher
                      - retired professional librarian, single parent,
                      ROCOR/Cincinnati parish) Magdalena

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
                      http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
                    • Joseph Digrande
                      Anastacia: you speak well. Women in the Orthodox faith are the mainstay of humility and tradition. I hope you convert soon! ...
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 29, 2001
                        Anastacia: you speak well. Women in the Orthodox faith
                        are the mainstay of humility and tradition. I hope you
                        convert soon!
                        --- nanogram27@... wrote:
                        > In a message dated 3/29/01 6:39:07 AM Pacific
                        > Standard Time,
                        > ackerlyo@... writes:
                        >
                        > << It is appalling to me to see the ugly word
                        > "feminism" peak its head in an
                        > Orthodox thread. Women have always had a major role
                        > to play in the Orthodox
                        > church, but there was never any need for power or
                        > recognition. >>
                        >
                        > Please forgive me, I usually just observe and read
                        > the posts on this list so
                        > I can learn, but I am in the process of converting
                        > to Orthodoxy and know very
                        > little. However, I felt I needed to respond to this
                        > post from my point of
                        > view and because I come from a Catholic background.
                        > The statement "never
                        > need power or recognition" is the issue. In the
                        > days before I even knew
                        > about the Orthodox Church, (and post Vatican II) I
                        > could never understand why
                        > the women in the church wanted recognition for what
                        > they were doing. I also
                        > noticed another interesting phenomena. These women
                        > had little regard for
                        > Mary as a role model. In earlier days, women
                        > performed many services for the
                        > church, and were not often recognized, nor did they
                        > seek recognition and had
                        > a spirit of humility. I can only speak from the
                        > churches that I used to
                        > attend, but the role of women has changed
                        > dramatically in many Catholic
                        > churches. We now have altar girls, women are
                        > Eucharistic Ministers, there is
                        > a big push for inclusive language, several parishes
                        > have liturgists, who are
                        > women who have a huge role in the parish in regard
                        > to the liturgy and other
                        > matters, and in one church they have a nun who
                        > occasionally gives the homily
                        > which is forbidden but it happens. Unfortunately,
                        > in my opinion, this is the
                        > result of the feminist movement and has caused
                        > tremendous erosion. Thank
                        > God, this is not present in the Orthodox church (at
                        > least as far as I know!)
                        > Again, the issue is not whether women are involved,
                        > but whether they are
                        > involved to be recognized.
                        > "Love humility and we shall see the glory of God.
                        > Without humility thre is
                        > nothing in a man but darkness."
                        >
                        > Please forgive me if this offends anyone.
                        > Soon to be Anastasia
                        >
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
                        http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
                      • Olga Mitrenina
                        Dear List, Here is the link that you may find useful: Early Church Fathers Collection http://www.zeitun.org/ecfidx.htm With love in Christ, Olga
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 30, 2001
                          Dear List,

                          Here is the link that you may find useful:
                          Early Church Fathers Collection
                          http://www.zeitun.org/ecfidx.htm

                          With love in Christ,
                          Olga
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