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Re: [orthodox-synod] Father Konstantin Fedoroff

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  • jeromeleo@juno.com
    Sometimes reading through all these posts is a very useful Lenten penance. Why is everyone so bogged down in the defense or dissection of this or that
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 2, 2001
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      Sometimes reading through all these posts is a very useful Lenten
      penance. Why is everyone so bogged down in the defense or dissection of
      this or that INDIVIDUAL personality. Heavens, I hope the faith does not
      rest on so little. Fr. X or Vladika Y may be fine, or they may be crazy.
      Every church has them, you know. But one along is not always St. Mark of
      Ephesus. Sometimes they are just wrong, priest or not, bishop or not. One
      is tempted to think that many think of these individuals as having an
      infallibility that most RC's wouldn't give to the Pope. That's just not
      so.

      The sins of MP are not imaginary, but they are not unforgivable, either.
      Everyone seems to be of the mind that closer union with MP would not
      involve any conversion at all on their part and that is most unlikely.
      Ought not their conversion to be looked for with hope? The only
      unforgivable sin is that against the Holy Spirit, which, mercifully, most
      commentators claim is unknown, speculation at best as to what it might
      be. However, one might wonder if the real trap of that sin against the
      Spirit might not be in resisting the Sobor, where the Holy Spirit is
      deemed to act, so vehemently. Given a choice between an allegedly
      surf-boarding Elder with an accent that may be acquired and a Sobor, I'll
      take the Sobor, any day!

      A further mission here is the presumption that this move be resisted with
      all possible force NOW, and this juncture. Well, this is only the
      beginning. One has no idea how it will unfold. It may be that the project
      will fail and have to be abandoned, will be abandoned. One does not know
      at this point. However, to resist even the ATTEMPT at closer union runs
      at peril with Christ's prayer that all be one. The desire of Christ
      Himself here is paramount and far transcends any human desires. Dare one
      safely deny even that chance of that prayer being answered. I think not.

      Marry the age and become a widow in the next. The roots in history of
      ROCA are valid, but things HAVE changed. Do you really want to insist on
      becoming like the Old Believers? Peter the Great is dead.

      Lev


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    • Kiril Bart
      I m sorry to point, but logic behind your letter really remind me old believers, who ll dispose anything that unclean hand of nikonians will touch, they can
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 2, 2001
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        I'm sorry to point, but logic behind your letter
        really remind me old believers, who'll dispose
        anything that unclean hand of nikonians will touch,
        they can kill you if you enter there church as it
        happens in Siberia in 70's. Although, personally I
        don't support business with church items we don't know
        where Fr. Konstantin spending his profit and it's very
        possible that he spending them for Godly reasons. Your
        sentiments about MP guys selling items to there ROCOR
        fellows for a discount I can assure you that you are
        deeply mistaken, as soon as they will realiza that you
        from abroad you will face price at least doubled and
        in hard currency for sure. I'm surprised by you zeal
        to throw stones on
        those, who is not in MP bunch.
        Regards, Subdeacon Kirill

        --- "O.Ross" <oross@...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <anton111us@...>
        > To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:59 AM
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Father Konstantin Fedoroff
        >
        >
        > > To all concerned: skip...
        >
        > > I do sell icons, liturgical items, and books that
        > Father Konstantin
        > > brings from Russia, and I do not take any money
        > from the sales. If
        > > anyone is interested, please contact me at
        > anton1@....
        > >
        > > Have a blessed Lent,
        > >
        > > Father Deacon Anthony Bridges
        > >
        > > Our Lady, Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox
        > Church
        > > Father Alexis Duncan, Rector
        > > Cumming, GA (near Atlanta)
        >
        > Dear deacon Antony and the rest of the list:
        >
        > I don't know yow about you, but I am really amazed.
        > Fr. Konstantin and a few
        > other zealots in ROCA are now so emotionally and
        > vigorously protesting
        > against the very careful and mild statements of ROCA
        > Synod calling to
        > discuss the possibility of overcoming the
        > unfortunate separation with ROC
        > MP, which is in line with the will of the blessed
        > memory founder of ROCA,
        > metropolitan Antony Khrapovitsky. They shamelessly
        > and irresponsibly call
        > ROC MP and Her Patriarch with all kinds of
        > blasphemous names, graceless,
        > etc., etc. At the same time this same people,
        > including fr. Konstantin,
        > quite often travel to Russia, to that "harlot", and
        > bring from there to sell
        > here, in ROCA churches and monasteries, "icons,
        > liturgical items, and
        > books". Well, what's wrong with that? It is good
        > business! Sure it is, but
        > we'll talk about this later.
        > First of all, all these books and other items that
        > fr.Konstantin "brings
        > from Russia" are published and made with the
        > blessings of Patriarch Aleksiy
        > whom they even do not recognize as such and call him
        > all kinds of names. If
        > they are so righteous as they state they are they
        > shouldn't even touch all
        > that stuff moreover sell it.
        > But they obviously do. Why? And how they reconcile
        > their "righteous"
        > pronouncements with their absolutely opposite
        > actions?
        > Well, fr. deacon Antony, you said that "I do not
        > take any money from the
        > sales". But someone evidently take them. And here
        > maybe the answer to the
        > above question. The books, icons and other items are
        > relatively very cheap
        > in Russia. The book or icon that cost retail there
        > 20 rubles can be sold
        > here for $20. Not bad at all. Besides for wholesale
        > buyers from churches and
        > monasteries they give up to 40% discount. And since
        > there is no such
        > animosity in Russia towards ROCA as we see here
        > towards MP this discount for
        > dear brothers abroad can be even higher.
        > So, never mind that these books have written on them
        > Patriarchal blessings,
        > and icons and crosses have been blessed at the
        > Patriarchal "graceless"
        > monasteries or Sofrino. So, in the spirit of good
        > American businessmen they
        > tightly close their eyes to the stuff they bring
        > from ROC MP as long as it
        > is profitable.
        > And that's fine, that's might be understandable. But
        > why then in the world
        > they, and fr. Konstantin comes here as a perfect
        > example, widely open their
        > mouths to so noisily blasphemy not only ROC MP and
        > Patriarch, but their own
        > Bishops!? What is it? How do we call such a strange
        > behavior? Hypocrisy? I
        > don't know, I am not able to understand that. How
        > about you?
        > Alex Ross
        >
        >
        > Archives located at
        > http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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      • anton111us@yahoo.com
        ... and a few other zealots in ROCA are now so emotionally and vigorously protesting against the very careful and mild statements of ROCA Synod calling to
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 2, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "O.Ross" <oross@g...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear deacon Antony and the rest of the list:
          >
          > I don't know yow about you, but I am really amazed. Fr. Konstantin
          and a few other zealots in ROCA are now so emotionally and vigorously
          protesting against the very careful and mild statements of ROCA Synod
          calling to discuss the possibility of overcoming the unfortunate
          separation with ROC MP, which is in line with the will of the blessed
          memory founder of ROCA, metropolitan Antony Khrapovitsky. They
          shamelessly and irresponsibly call ROC MP and Her Patriarch with all
          kinds of blasphemous names, graceless, etc., etc. At the same time
          this same people, including fr. Konstantin, quite often travel to
          Russia, to that "harlot", and bring from there to sell here, in ROCA
          churches and monasteries, "icons, liturgical items, and books". Well,
          what's wrong with that? It is good business! Sure it is, but we'll
          talk about this later.

          Deacon Anthony replies:

          I was only speaking of my personal experience of Father Konstantin,
          which admittedly is somewhat limited. I wasn't referring to
          other "zealots." Frankly, I agree that people have overreacted to all
          this. Part of the reason is that they suspect that more is going on
          behind the scenes than the official documents indicate. Also some of
          the tactics that have been used in response to these "zealots" have a
          rather heavy-handed feel to them compared to the past rather tolerant
          actions of our Synod.

          Be that as it may, let me say it once again: the fact that Father
          Konstantin is a friend of mine does not mean that I approve of
          everything he says or does, and I did not sign his letter, nor would
          I be willing to follow him into a schism. I do believe he has a right
          to state his opinion that the Moscow Patriarchate is without grace. I
          have never heard him use any terms in reference to them that I would
          call blasphemous.

          He has also been quite clear with me that there are many wonderful,
          pious people in the Russian churches, both laity and clergy. By
          saying that the MP hierarchy is without grace he is not saying
          anything about those people. He is saying that the leadership of the
          church is uncanonical and corrupt.

          Whether he is right about that, I cannot say. Where is God's grace?
          God knows.

          As for union between ROCA and MP, actually it would of course be the
          best thing if it could happen in the right way. The real question is:
          can it happen without destroying the integrity of what the Church
          Abroad has preserved all these years in exile?

          Also, there is the very real, though not often-discussed issue of
          numbers. The Church Abroad is severely outnumbered by the Moscow
          Patriarchate, so that in any Council we could easily be outvoted.
          This means that the MP could offer us some very good assurances,
          leading to a union, that could then easily be rescinded. These are
          the very real fears of the "zealots" who perhaps overreact. But very
          little information is forthcoming to help allay these fears.

          The lack of information from the Synod, and the seeming suppression
          of other information contributes to the paranoia. I understand that
          the Synod is in a very difficult position at this point. They need to
          be able to proceed carefully and with assurance of support from the
          people of our church. But it is hard for some to give that support
          when they have so little information about what is really going on.
          Official pronouncements are not enough.

          > First of all, all these books and other items that
          fr.Konstantin "brings from Russia" are published and made with the
          blessings of Patriarch Aleksiy whom they even do not recognize as
          such and call him all kinds of names. If they are so righteous as
          they state they are they shouldn't even touch all that stuff moreover
          sell it.

          Father Deacon Anthony replies:

          Personally I have never heard Father Konstantin say that he is
          righteous. I am not sure why he shouldn't sell books and icons,
          however, as long as there is nothing wrong with them. Our churches
          and monasteries all over the US sell books and icons from many
          different sources, including some heretical and schismatic groups.


          > But they obviously do. Why? And how they reconcile their "righteous"
          pronouncements with their absolutely opposite actions?
          Well, fr. deacon Antony, you said that "I do not take any money from
          the sales". But someone evidently take them. And here maybe the
          answer to the above question. The books, icons and other items are
          relatively very cheap in Russia. The book or icon that cost retail
          there 20 rubles can be sold here for $20. Not bad at all. Besides for
          wholesale buyers from churches and monasteries they give up to 40%
          discount. And since there is no such animosity in Russia towards ROCA
          as we see here towards MP this discount for dear brothers abroad can
          be even higher.

          Father Anthony replies:

          I am not sure that you understand the total economic picture here. As
          I said, I do not take any profit from the sales. It is not my
          business to discuss Father Konstantin's finances, but I don't think
          he is rich. Also understand that there are some expenses involved,
          and that if the items are sold through a parish bookstore, for
          example, they will keep a percentage.

          > So, never mind that these books have written on them Patriarchal
          blessings, and icons and crosses have been blessed at the
          Patriarchal "graceless" monasteries or Sofrino. So, in the spirit of
          good American businessmen they tightly close their eyes to the stuff
          they bring from ROC MP as long as it is profitable.


          If Father Konstantin were an example of a good American businessman,
          I can assure you that US corporations would be out of business in a
          year.


          > And that's fine, that's might be understandable. But why then in
          the world they, and fr. Konstantin comes here as a perfect example,
          widely open their mouths to so noisily blasphemy not only ROC MP and
          Patriarch, but their own Bishops!? What is it? How do we call such a
          strange behavior? Hypocrisy? I don't know, I am not able to
          understand that. How about you?

          If Father Konstantin is "blaspheming" his own bishops, I do not know
          about it. He believes they are taking a wrong path, he took a stand
          against it, and he is under discipline. That is between him and God.
          It is said that he is still serving while under suspension. If so, I
          am sorry for him. I would not serve with him or even take a blessing
          under such a circumstance. But that is all rumor as far as I am
          concerned.



          Alex Ross
        • jeromeleo@juno.com
          To my shame, I wrote: Given a choice between an allegedly surf-boarding Elder with an accent that may be acquired and a Sobor, I ll take the Sobor, any day!
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 3, 2001
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            To my shame, I wrote:

            "Given a choice between an allegedly
            surf-boarding Elder with an accent that may be acquired and a Sobor, I'll
            take the Sobor, any day!"

            I apologize for the sarcasm and personal slight in this. Yes, i would be
            very careful in defending an individual above a Sobor, but I have
            previously decried meanness in others and have now stooped to same
            myself. Please forgive me, esp. if Father himself had to read this. Most
            of my life I had had the unfortunate knack of slipping into un-Christian
            sarcasm when I thought it advanced an argument. It really doesn't. It
            cheapens the truth and cheapens me, cheapens all who must read it, too.

            I am truly sorry and pray for those I have offended.

            Lev
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          • Fr. Gregory Williams
            God bless you, LevŠ for both communications. I don t know whether Fr. Konstantin surfboards or not (nothing wrong with that anyway, so far as I can see)Š
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 3, 2001
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              God bless you, LevŠ for both communications. I don't know whether
              Fr. Konstantin surfboards or not (nothing wrong with that anyway, so
              far as I can see)Š but apart from that rather odd remark, your post
              reflects, I think, the authentic voice of the Church.
              --
              --Fr. Gregory Williams

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              1180 Orthodox Way
              Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

              Phone: (615) 536-5239
              FAX: (615) 536-5945
              E-mail: frgregory@...
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              ... But of course, if something like that happened, the reconciliation itself could just as easily fall apart--and thus all the trouble put into it lost. On
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 3, 2001
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                On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 anton111us@... wrote:
                >
                > As for union between ROCA and MP, actually it would of course be the
                > best thing if it could happen in the right way. The real question is:
                > can it happen without destroying the integrity of what the Church
                > Abroad has preserved all these years in exile?
                >
                > Also, there is the very real, though not often-discussed issue of
                > numbers. The Church Abroad is severely outnumbered by the Moscow
                > Patriarchate, so that in any Council we could easily be outvoted.
                > This means that the MP could offer us some very good assurances,
                > leading to a union, that could then easily be rescinded.

                But of course, if something like that happened, the
                "reconciliation" itself could just as easily fall apart--and thus all the
                trouble put into it lost.

                On the other hand, there have also been indications of a growing,
                conservative majority in the Patriarchate itself--as evidenced in their
                Sobor decisions, which are far closer to the positions of the Church
                Abroad than the statements that came out of Moscow just a few years ago.

                It was Dr. Prof Ivan M. Andreev (Andreevsky) at Jordanville who
                once spoke to us of "the Church" as being marked by various viewpoints and
                theologoumena, as opposed to a sect, which was locked into a much more
                narrow position. (He said this in speaking of the Old Testament Church, as
                opposed to the rejection of Christ by the synagogue and the latter's
                transformation into the second, or sect-like, category).

                There was a range of opinions in the Russian Church before the
                revolution, and, traditionally, there always was in the Church Abroad.

                When the Erie Old Ritualist community came into the Church Abroad,
                Vl. Daniel said, "The Russian Church was divided for 3 centuries, but
                today, the pieces still fit together perfectly". It is my hope and prayer
                that we may yet live to see that said of the more recent Church splits.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • jeromeleo@juno.com
                Father, Bless! yes, I got sucked into the mentality of other posts on that one! What on earth IS wrong with surfboarding?? Could a figure skater still be OK?
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 3, 2001
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                  Father, Bless!
                  yes, I got sucked into the mentality of other posts on that one! What on
                  earth IS wrong with surfboarding?? Could a figure skater still be OK?

                  LOL!
                  Lev

                  On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:23:07 -0600 "Fr. Gregory Williams"
                  <frgregory@...> writes:
                  > God bless you, Lev� for both communications. I don't know whether
                  > Fr. Konstantin surfboards or not (nothing wrong with that anyway, so
                  >
                  > far as I can see)� but apart from that rather odd remark, your post
                  > reflects, I think, the authentic voice of the Church.
                  > --
                  > --Fr. Gregory Williams
                  >
                  > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                  > 1180 Orthodox Way
                  > Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA
                  >
                  > Phone: (615) 536-5239
                  > FAX: (615) 536-5945
                  > E-mail: frgregory@...
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >

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