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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford/Fr. David Moser

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  • Kiril Bart
    Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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      Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
      your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
      been replying to. I did refer to that event as
      illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
      ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
      proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
      time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
      wrong?
      Subdeacon Kirill

      --- moserd@... wrote:
      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
      > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
      > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
      > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
      > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
      > mid-80's
      > > Subdeacon Kirill
      >
      >
      > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
      > that. If the only
      > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
      > history that the
      > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
      > Holly Springs to
      > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
      > and Bishop Gregory
      > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
      > and Gregory were
      > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
      > that time - I was
      > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
      > clergy only meeting at
      > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
      > was a masterful act
      > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
      > beat a horse that
      > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
      > be pretty
      > desperate.
      >
      > Pr David Moser
      > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      >
      >


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    • moserd@micron.net
      ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
        > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
        > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
        > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
        > wrong?

        If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
        of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
        Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
        always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
        have to say that your conclusions are in error.

        Pr David Moser
        St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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          On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

          > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
          > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
          > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
          > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
          > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
          > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
          > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
          > wrong?
          > Subdeacon Kirill

          There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
          that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
          Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
          knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

          This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
          Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
          with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
          seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
          exchange like this than one might suppose.

          Thus for example:

          1) The boy did not eat the egg.

          2) The boy did not eat an egg.

          3) The boy did not eat egg.

          Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
          a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
          mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
          even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
          evade the poison.

          Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
          specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
          or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

          Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
          not just on one occasion.

          So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
          "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
          these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
          the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
          incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
          go".

          All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
          another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
          surpising degree.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Joachim Wertz
          I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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            I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
            attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
            seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
            Joachim Wertz

            ----------
            From: moserd@...
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
            Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
            > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
            > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
            > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
            > Subdeacon Kirill


            Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
            thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
            Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
            "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
            for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
            accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
            there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
            that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
            of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
            was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
            desperate.

            Pr David Moser
            St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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