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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford

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  • Rev. John R. Shaw
    ... There was, however, no such regulation --only a de-facto practice. ... Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a lapse of judgment . It
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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      On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, rsjmil wrote:

      > In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
      > regulation

      There was, however, no such "regulation"--only a de-facto
      practice.

      > of ROCA fifteen years ago at least,
      > raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
      > repented of a lapse of judgement,

      Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a "lapse
      of judgment". It was simply an innocent event that the Panteleimonites
      were "making hay" out of.

      A couple of years before then-archimandrite Kallistos Ware was
      made a bishop, he was present at a service in the ROCOR convent in London
      when Vl. Vitaly visited--and Vl. Vitaly invited him to concelebrate. Fr.
      Kallistos had to decline because his own bishop had told him not to. (I
      heard this from Bishop Kallistos himself). For several years, Fr.
      Kallistos had been celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the convent.

      If this had happened during or after the Panteleimonites' schism,
      it could equally (or even more so) have been "made hay of".

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Kiril Bart
      Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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        Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
        your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
        been replying to. I did refer to that event as
        illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
        ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
        proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
        time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
        wrong?
        Subdeacon Kirill

        --- moserd@... wrote:
        > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
        > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
        > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
        > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
        > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
        > mid-80's
        > > Subdeacon Kirill
        >
        >
        > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
        > that. If the only
        > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
        > history that the
        > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
        > Holly Springs to
        > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
        > and Bishop Gregory
        > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
        > and Gregory were
        > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
        > that time - I was
        > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
        > clergy only meeting at
        > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
        > was a masterful act
        > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
        > beat a horse that
        > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
        > be pretty
        > desperate.
        >
        > Pr David Moser
        > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        >
        >


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      • moserd@micron.net
        ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
          > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
          > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
          > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
          > wrong?

          If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
          of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
          Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
          always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
          have to say that your conclusions are in error.

          Pr David Moser
          St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
        • Rev. John R. Shaw
          ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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            On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

            > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
            > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
            > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
            > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
            > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
            > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
            > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
            > wrong?
            > Subdeacon Kirill

            There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
            that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
            Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
            knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

            This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
            Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
            with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
            seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
            exchange like this than one might suppose.

            Thus for example:

            1) The boy did not eat the egg.

            2) The boy did not eat an egg.

            3) The boy did not eat egg.

            Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
            a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
            mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
            even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
            evade the poison.

            Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
            specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
            or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

            Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
            not just on one occasion.

            So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
            "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
            these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
            the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
            incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
            go".

            All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
            another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
            surpising degree.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • Joachim Wertz
            I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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              I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
              attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
              seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
              Joachim Wertz

              ----------
              From: moserd@...
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
              Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
              > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
              > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
              > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
              > Subdeacon Kirill


              Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
              thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
              Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
              "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
              for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
              accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
              there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
              that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
              of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
              was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
              desperate.

              Pr David Moser
              St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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