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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford

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  • Rev. John R. Shaw
    ... This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy s (and with him, my own) attendance at that Vesper
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
      On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

      > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
      > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
      > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
      > Subdeacon Kirill

      This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the
      Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy's (and with him, my own)
      attendance at that Vesper service in the Serbian church "an act of
      ecumenism", the Metropolitan privately told Vl. Alypy that "it's safer to
      stay away from such things". But he did not rebuke him, merely made a
      suggestion.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      ... Except that, as I said, there was no rebuke , let alone a serious or very serious one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl. Alypy (taking him to
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
        On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 frjohnwhiteford@... wrote:

        > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
        > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
        > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
        > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
        >
        > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
        > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
        >
        Except that, as I said, there was no "rebuke", let alone a
        "serious" or "very serious" one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl.
        Alypy (taking him to one side) that it was safer to avoid "such
        gatherings".

        Such is what Vl. Alypy himself told me at the time (in March of
        1986).

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        ... There was, however, no such regulation --only a de-facto practice. ... Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a lapse of judgment . It
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
          On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, rsjmil wrote:

          > In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
          > regulation

          There was, however, no such "regulation"--only a de-facto
          practice.

          > of ROCA fifteen years ago at least,
          > raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
          > repented of a lapse of judgement,

          Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a "lapse
          of judgment". It was simply an innocent event that the Panteleimonites
          were "making hay" out of.

          A couple of years before then-archimandrite Kallistos Ware was
          made a bishop, he was present at a service in the ROCOR convent in London
          when Vl. Vitaly visited--and Vl. Vitaly invited him to concelebrate. Fr.
          Kallistos had to decline because his own bishop had told him not to. (I
          heard this from Bishop Kallistos himself). For several years, Fr.
          Kallistos had been celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the convent.

          If this had happened during or after the Panteleimonites' schism,
          it could equally (or even more so) have been "made hay of".

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Kiril Bart
          Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
            Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
            your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
            been replying to. I did refer to that event as
            illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
            ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
            proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
            time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
            wrong?
            Subdeacon Kirill

            --- moserd@... wrote:
            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
            > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
            > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
            > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
            > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
            > mid-80's
            > > Subdeacon Kirill
            >
            >
            > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
            > that. If the only
            > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
            > history that the
            > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
            > Holly Springs to
            > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
            > and Bishop Gregory
            > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
            > and Gregory were
            > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
            > that time - I was
            > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
            > clergy only meeting at
            > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
            > was a masterful act
            > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
            > beat a horse that
            > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
            > be pretty
            > desperate.
            >
            > Pr David Moser
            > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            >
            >


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          • moserd@micron.net
            ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
              > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
              > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
              > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
              > wrong?

              If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
              of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
              Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
              always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
              have to say that your conclusions are in error.

              Pr David Moser
              St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
                On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                > wrong?
                > Subdeacon Kirill

                There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
                that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
                Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
                knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

                This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
                Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
                with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
                seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
                exchange like this than one might suppose.

                Thus for example:

                1) The boy did not eat the egg.

                2) The boy did not eat an egg.

                3) The boy did not eat egg.

                Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
                a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
                mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
                even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
                evade the poison.

                Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
                specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
                or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

                Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
                not just on one occasion.

                So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
                "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
                these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
                the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
                incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
                go".

                All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
                another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
                surpising degree.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Joachim Wertz
                I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
                  I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
                  attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
                  seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
                  Joachim Wertz

                  ----------
                  From: moserd@...
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
                  Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                  > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                  > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                  > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                  > Subdeacon Kirill


                  Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
                  thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
                  Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
                  "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
                  for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
                  accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
                  there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
                  that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
                  of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
                  was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
                  desperate.

                  Pr David Moser
                  St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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