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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford

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  • Kiril Bart
    I wouldn t bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80 s Subdeacon
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
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      I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
      seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
      service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
      Subdeacon Kirill
      --- "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
      wrote:

      > Me: Since the ROCA never broke communion with the
      > Serbs, even during the time of Metropolitan
      > Philaret,
      > when the Serbs were engaged in activities that were
      > objectionable, then why did not HTM fall under that
      > anathema since they remained in communion with those
      > who were in communion, with those who were in
      > communion with "heretics"?
      >
      >
      > =====
      >
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    • frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com
      ... That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
        > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
        > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
        > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's

        That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
        service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
      • rsjmil
        In the event that Abp Alypy may have sinned by violating a regulation of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it alive like this?
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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          In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
          regulation
          of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it
          alive like this? You can claim all the finger pointing piety you wish
          to answer for, Kiril, but you cannot convince very many of us that
          raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
          repented of a lapse of judgement, shows Christian love and
          forgiveness. Surely, since you apparently feel yourself so correct
          and so Orthodox and so competent as to criticize, you are aware of
          what the Fathers say about exposing the sins of others. What is most
          clear is that you have no direct knowledge of the situation yourself
          and are relying entirely on subjective hearsay.

          Today is the Sunday of The Publican and The Pharisee. There are
          supposed to be lessons there for all of us.

          Joseph Miller



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <frjohnwhiteford@...>
          To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:50 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford


          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
          > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
          > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
          > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
          >
          > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in
          that
          > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • moserd@micron.net
          ... Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the Boston crowd tried
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
            > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
            > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
            > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
            > Subdeacon Kirill


            Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
            thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
            Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
            "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
            for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
            accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
            there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
            that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
            of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
            was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
            desperate.

            Pr David Moser
            St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
          • Rev. John R. Shaw
            ... This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy s (and with him, my own) attendance at that Vesper
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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              On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

              > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
              > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
              > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
              > Subdeacon Kirill

              This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the
              Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy's (and with him, my own)
              attendance at that Vesper service in the Serbian church "an act of
              ecumenism", the Metropolitan privately told Vl. Alypy that "it's safer to
              stay away from such things". But he did not rebuke him, merely made a
              suggestion.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              ... Except that, as I said, there was no rebuke , let alone a serious or very serious one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl. Alypy (taking him to
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 frjohnwhiteford@... wrote:

                > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                >
                > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
                > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
                >
                Except that, as I said, there was no "rebuke", let alone a
                "serious" or "very serious" one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl.
                Alypy (taking him to one side) that it was safer to avoid "such
                gatherings".

                Such is what Vl. Alypy himself told me at the time (in March of
                1986).

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Rev. John R. Shaw
                ... There was, however, no such regulation --only a de-facto practice. ... Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a lapse of judgment . It
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                  On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, rsjmil wrote:

                  > In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
                  > regulation

                  There was, however, no such "regulation"--only a de-facto
                  practice.

                  > of ROCA fifteen years ago at least,
                  > raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
                  > repented of a lapse of judgement,

                  Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a "lapse
                  of judgment". It was simply an innocent event that the Panteleimonites
                  were "making hay" out of.

                  A couple of years before then-archimandrite Kallistos Ware was
                  made a bishop, he was present at a service in the ROCOR convent in London
                  when Vl. Vitaly visited--and Vl. Vitaly invited him to concelebrate. Fr.
                  Kallistos had to decline because his own bishop had told him not to. (I
                  heard this from Bishop Kallistos himself). For several years, Fr.
                  Kallistos had been celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the convent.

                  If this had happened during or after the Panteleimonites' schism,
                  it could equally (or even more so) have been "made hay of".

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Kiril Bart
                  Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                    Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                    your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                    been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                    illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                    ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                    proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                    time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                    wrong?
                    Subdeacon Kirill

                    --- moserd@... wrote:
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
                    > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                    > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                    > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                    > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
                    > mid-80's
                    > > Subdeacon Kirill
                    >
                    >
                    > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
                    > that. If the only
                    > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
                    > history that the
                    > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
                    > Holly Springs to
                    > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
                    > and Bishop Gregory
                    > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
                    > and Gregory were
                    > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
                    > that time - I was
                    > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
                    > clergy only meeting at
                    > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
                    > was a masterful act
                    > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
                    > beat a horse that
                    > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
                    > be pretty
                    > desperate.
                    >
                    > Pr David Moser
                    > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                    >
                    >


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                  • moserd@micron.net
                    ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                      > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                      > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                      > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                      > wrong?

                      If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
                      of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
                      Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
                      always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
                      have to say that your conclusions are in error.

                      Pr David Moser
                      St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                      ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                        On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                        > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                        > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                        > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                        > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                        > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                        > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                        > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                        > wrong?
                        > Subdeacon Kirill

                        There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
                        that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
                        Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
                        knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

                        This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
                        Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
                        with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
                        seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
                        exchange like this than one might suppose.

                        Thus for example:

                        1) The boy did not eat the egg.

                        2) The boy did not eat an egg.

                        3) The boy did not eat egg.

                        Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
                        a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
                        mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
                        even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
                        evade the poison.

                        Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
                        specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
                        or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

                        Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
                        not just on one occasion.

                        So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
                        "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
                        these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
                        the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
                        incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
                        go".

                        All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
                        another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
                        surpising degree.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Joachim Wertz
                        I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                          I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
                          attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
                          seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
                          Joachim Wertz

                          ----------
                          From: moserd@...
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
                          Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


                          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                          > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                          > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                          > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                          > Subdeacon Kirill


                          Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
                          thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
                          Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
                          "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
                          for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
                          accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
                          there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
                          that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
                          of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
                          was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
                          desperate.

                          Pr David Moser
                          St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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