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Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    Michael Nikitin writes: Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A tactic often used by people who try to avoid answering a question that is
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
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      "Michael Nikitin" writes:

      "Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A
      tactic often used by people who try to avoid answering
      a question that is asked."

      You posted a link which defended the HOCNA schism, and
      I posted one which gives the wholes story. That was
      not to change the subject.

      You and Gleb Godin (if you are not infact one and the
      same) have probably always been in HOCNA. I have
      suspected it from your very first posts, in which you
      presented yourselves as members of the ROCA. I have
      repeated asked you both to identify the parish you
      attend, and you both have consistantly ducked that
      question. Why?


      MN: "A representative Bishop of the Serbian Church
      served with the Pope of Rome."

      Me: You do not know what he did, since the only
      articles you have sited have given no details. The
      ROCA had a representative at the Second Vatican
      Council, and yet HTM nevertheless joined the ROCA.
      Without a video tape of what occured, you have no way
      of knowing what the Serbian representative did or did
      not do while at the Vatican.

      Aside from that, if he did anything objectionable, you
      have no way of knowing whether he had prior approval
      to do so or not. And who knows what the Serbian
      Church might yet do about it, if they was in fact
      something objectionable?

      MN: "We all know that the Serbs are in ecumenism and
      the bishops of ROCOR by serving with the Serbian
      Church not only fall under the Anathema of 1983,
      but even if there has not been the Anathema of 1983
      against Ecumenism, the hierarchs of ROCOR with their
      submitting flock would be still in heresy."

      Me: Since the ROCA never broke communion with the
      Serbs, even during the time of Metropolitan Philaret,
      when the Serbs were engaged in activities that were
      objectionable, then why did not HTM fall under that
      anathema since they remained in communion with those
      who were in communion, with those who were in
      communion with "heretics"?


      =====
      ********************************************************
      * Fr. John Whiteford IC -|- XC *
      * ----|---- *
      * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission | *
      * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \| *
      * and Conroe, Texas area. |\ *
      * http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/ NI | KA *

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    • Kiril Bart
      I wouldn t bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80 s Subdeacon
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
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        I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
        seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
        service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
        Subdeacon Kirill
        --- "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
        wrote:

        > Me: Since the ROCA never broke communion with the
        > Serbs, even during the time of Metropolitan
        > Philaret,
        > when the Serbs were engaged in activities that were
        > objectionable, then why did not HTM fall under that
        > anathema since they remained in communion with those
        > who were in communion, with those who were in
        > communion with "heretics"?
        >
        >
        > =====
        >
        ********************************************************
        > * Fr. John Whiteford IC -|-
        > XC *
        > *
        > ----|---- *
        > * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission |
        > *
        > * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \|
        > *
        > * and Conroe, Texas area. |\
        > *
        > * http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/ NI |
        > KA *
        >
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      • frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com
        ... That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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          --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
          > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
          > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
          > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's

          That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
          service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
        • rsjmil
          In the event that Abp Alypy may have sinned by violating a regulation of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it alive like this?
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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            In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
            regulation
            of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it
            alive like this? You can claim all the finger pointing piety you wish
            to answer for, Kiril, but you cannot convince very many of us that
            raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
            repented of a lapse of judgement, shows Christian love and
            forgiveness. Surely, since you apparently feel yourself so correct
            and so Orthodox and so competent as to criticize, you are aware of
            what the Fathers say about exposing the sins of others. What is most
            clear is that you have no direct knowledge of the situation yourself
            and are relying entirely on subjective hearsay.

            Today is the Sunday of The Publican and The Pharisee. There are
            supposed to be lessons there for all of us.

            Joseph Miller



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <frjohnwhiteford@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:50 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford


            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
            > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
            > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
            > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
            >
            > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in
            that
            > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • moserd@micron.net
            ... Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the Boston crowd tried
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
              > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
              > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
              > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
              > Subdeacon Kirill


              Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
              thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
              Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
              "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
              for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
              accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
              there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
              that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
              of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
              was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
              desperate.

              Pr David Moser
              St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              ... This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy s (and with him, my own) attendance at that Vesper
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                > Subdeacon Kirill

                This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the
                Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy's (and with him, my own)
                attendance at that Vesper service in the Serbian church "an act of
                ecumenism", the Metropolitan privately told Vl. Alypy that "it's safer to
                stay away from such things". But he did not rebuke him, merely made a
                suggestion.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Rev. John R. Shaw
                ... Except that, as I said, there was no rebuke , let alone a serious or very serious one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl. Alypy (taking him to
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                  On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 frjohnwhiteford@... wrote:

                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                  > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                  > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                  > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                  >
                  > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
                  > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
                  >
                  Except that, as I said, there was no "rebuke", let alone a
                  "serious" or "very serious" one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl.
                  Alypy (taking him to one side) that it was safer to avoid "such
                  gatherings".

                  Such is what Vl. Alypy himself told me at the time (in March of
                  1986).

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                  ... There was, however, no such regulation --only a de-facto practice. ... Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a lapse of judgment . It
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                    On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, rsjmil wrote:

                    > In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
                    > regulation

                    There was, however, no such "regulation"--only a de-facto
                    practice.

                    > of ROCA fifteen years ago at least,
                    > raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
                    > repented of a lapse of judgement,

                    Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a "lapse
                    of judgment". It was simply an innocent event that the Panteleimonites
                    were "making hay" out of.

                    A couple of years before then-archimandrite Kallistos Ware was
                    made a bishop, he was present at a service in the ROCOR convent in London
                    when Vl. Vitaly visited--and Vl. Vitaly invited him to concelebrate. Fr.
                    Kallistos had to decline because his own bishop had told him not to. (I
                    heard this from Bishop Kallistos himself). For several years, Fr.
                    Kallistos had been celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the convent.

                    If this had happened during or after the Panteleimonites' schism,
                    it could equally (or even more so) have been "made hay of".

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Kiril Bart
                    Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
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                      Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                      your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                      been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                      illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                      ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                      proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                      time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                      wrong?
                      Subdeacon Kirill

                      --- moserd@... wrote:
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
                      > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                      > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                      > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                      > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
                      > mid-80's
                      > > Subdeacon Kirill
                      >
                      >
                      > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
                      > that. If the only
                      > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
                      > history that the
                      > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
                      > Holly Springs to
                      > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
                      > and Bishop Gregory
                      > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
                      > and Gregory were
                      > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
                      > that time - I was
                      > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
                      > clergy only meeting at
                      > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
                      > was a masterful act
                      > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
                      > beat a horse that
                      > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
                      > be pretty
                      > desperate.
                      >
                      > Pr David Moser
                      > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                      >
                      >


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                    • moserd@micron.net
                      ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                        > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                        > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                        > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                        > wrong?

                        If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
                        of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
                        Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
                        always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
                        have to say that your conclusions are in error.

                        Pr David Moser
                        St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                      • Rev. John R. Shaw
                        ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                          On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                          > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                          > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                          > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                          > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                          > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                          > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                          > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                          > wrong?
                          > Subdeacon Kirill

                          There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
                          that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
                          Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
                          knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

                          This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
                          Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
                          with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
                          seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
                          exchange like this than one might suppose.

                          Thus for example:

                          1) The boy did not eat the egg.

                          2) The boy did not eat an egg.

                          3) The boy did not eat egg.

                          Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
                          a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
                          mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
                          even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
                          evade the poison.

                          Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
                          specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
                          or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

                          Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
                          not just on one occasion.

                          So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
                          "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
                          these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
                          the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
                          incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
                          go".

                          All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
                          another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
                          surpising degree.

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
                        • Joachim Wertz
                          I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
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                            I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
                            attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
                            seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
                            Joachim Wertz

                            ----------
                            From: moserd@...
                            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
                            Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                            > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                            > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                            > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                            > Subdeacon Kirill


                            Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
                            thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
                            Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
                            "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
                            for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
                            accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
                            there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
                            that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
                            of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
                            was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
                            desperate.

                            Pr David Moser
                            St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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