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Reply to Fr. Whiteford

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  • Michael Nikitin
    Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A tactic often used by people who try to avoid answering a question that is asked. A representative Bishop
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 2, 2001
      Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A tactic often used by
      people who try to avoid answering a question that is asked.


      A representative Bishop of the Serbian Church served with the Pope of Rome.
      And, there is no censure by Patriarch Paul, but instead there is a blessing
      for this vile act of betrayal of the faithful Serbian Orthodox people. This
      is a crime first and foremost against God and against the trusting but
      uninformed flock that is intentionally kept in the dark -- or as Archbishop
      Mark of Berlin would have it with the faithful of ROCOR as if he desires to
      harvest mushrooms.

      It seems that many of us are perplexed with what came first the chicken or
      the egg syndrome.

      Does the heresy exist before a council rules that it is a heresy?
      We don't need a Council or some official act to know when a saint is a saint
      - our Church is filled with saints that never had a council invoked to
      officially pronounced their sainthood, for God glorified them and the
      faithful knew and honored God Who is glorious in His saints.

      And in the similar way the faithful know when an outright heresy is promoted
      and is preached by bishops with their heads bare - i.e., openly for everyone
      to see and hear.

      We all know that the Serbs are in ecumenism and the bishops of ROCOR by
      serving with the Serbian Church not only fall under the Anathema of 1983,
      but even if there has not been the Anathema of 1983 against Ecumenism, the
      hierarchs of ROCOR with their submitting flock would be still in heresy.

      About the concern over a defaced icon by Rush Limbaugh. What do you expect
      from a non-orthodox? What is more alarming is that our "Orthodox" bishops
      are leading us into heresy and silence rules.



      Serbian Patriarchate was presented by bishop Lavrentij of Shabach and
      Valevo, Moscow Partiarchate -- by bishop Innokentij of Korsun, Ecumenical
      --by metr. Gennady, Romanian -- by archbishop Joseph, Bulgarian -- by
      metr.Galaktion (who used this chance to invite the pope to his country),
      etc..They were not "among the crowd", but participated. This service was
      reportedby a number of news agencies , including some of the Russian ones.
      This is a
      regular service, they serve for several years, only the bishops change,
      andin 2000 Serbian partiarchate sent even two bishops there. I have a
      pictureof 2000 service. (And here is one more report).

      ORTHODOX, PROTESTANT LEADERS JOIN ECUMENICAL SERVICE

      VATICAN, Jan. 24, 01 (CWNews.com) -- Some 23 representatives of
      different Christian communities will join in an ecumenical liturgical
      service on January 25, with Pope John Paul II presiding, as the Week
      of Prayer for Christian Unity comes to a close.

      The Holy Father will lead the ecumenical service at the basilica of St.
      Paul outside the Walls. He will be joined by 17 representatives of
      Orthodox churches, 5 Protestant leaders, and a Lutheran bishop.

      Among the Orthodox leaders participating in the ceremony, the
      Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople will be represented by
      Metropolitan Gennadios of the Greek Orthodox Church in Italy. The
      Russian Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow will be represented by Bishop
      Innokenti, who heads the Russian Orthodox community in France.

      Other Orthodox leaders who are sending representatives include the
      patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, and
      Albania. Oriental Orthodox representatives will include those of the
      Coptic Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Syrian Malankara, Assyrian
      Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic churches.

      The Protestant clerics who participate in the ceremony will represent
      the Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, and Lutheran
      communities.

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Paul Drozdowski
      Michael~ With all due repect to you, I am somewhat offended by your attacks on ROCOR. In fact, it would seem to me that in your words deploring the state of
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
        Michael~
        With all due repect to you, I am somewhat offended by your attacks on ROCOR.
        In fact, it would seem to me that in your words deploring the state of
        affairs in the Serbian Church (of which none of us, being outsiders, can
        know the total truth of), youve taken the opportunity of attacking my
        jurisdiction. It would also seem to me that you are presently in HOCNA,
        having left the ROCOR. That, sir, is your decision. But many of us are
        trying our best here to obey those who have the rule over us and are trying
        not to judge our elders. So please spare us from additional temptation here.
        And if you have a problem with Fr John Whiteford (or Fr John Shaw, for that
        matter), many of us would appreciate it if perhaps you would argue with them
        personally instead of attacking them on this list. Thank you. And please
        forgive me, a wretched sinner, if I have offended you.
        In Christ,
        reader Paul Drozdowski
        St Vladimir's Memorial Church, Jackson, NJ (ROCOR)

        >Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A tactic often used by
        >people who try to avoid answering a question that is asked.
        >
        >
        >A representative Bishop of the Serbian Church served with the Pope of Rome.
        >And, there is no censure by Patriarch Paul, but instead there is a blessing
        >for this vile act of betrayal of the faithful Serbian Orthodox people. This
        >is a crime first and foremost against God and against the trusting but
        >uninformed flock that is intentionally kept in the dark -- or as Archbishop
        >Mark of Berlin would have it with the faithful of ROCOR as if he desires to
        >harvest mushrooms.

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Fr. John Whiteford
        Michael Nikitin writes: Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A tactic often used by people who try to avoid answering a question that is
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
          "Michael Nikitin" writes:

          "Fr. John Whiteford is trying to change the subject. A
          tactic often used by people who try to avoid answering
          a question that is asked."

          You posted a link which defended the HOCNA schism, and
          I posted one which gives the wholes story. That was
          not to change the subject.

          You and Gleb Godin (if you are not infact one and the
          same) have probably always been in HOCNA. I have
          suspected it from your very first posts, in which you
          presented yourselves as members of the ROCA. I have
          repeated asked you both to identify the parish you
          attend, and you both have consistantly ducked that
          question. Why?


          MN: "A representative Bishop of the Serbian Church
          served with the Pope of Rome."

          Me: You do not know what he did, since the only
          articles you have sited have given no details. The
          ROCA had a representative at the Second Vatican
          Council, and yet HTM nevertheless joined the ROCA.
          Without a video tape of what occured, you have no way
          of knowing what the Serbian representative did or did
          not do while at the Vatican.

          Aside from that, if he did anything objectionable, you
          have no way of knowing whether he had prior approval
          to do so or not. And who knows what the Serbian
          Church might yet do about it, if they was in fact
          something objectionable?

          MN: "We all know that the Serbs are in ecumenism and
          the bishops of ROCOR by serving with the Serbian
          Church not only fall under the Anathema of 1983,
          but even if there has not been the Anathema of 1983
          against Ecumenism, the hierarchs of ROCOR with their
          submitting flock would be still in heresy."

          Me: Since the ROCA never broke communion with the
          Serbs, even during the time of Metropolitan Philaret,
          when the Serbs were engaged in activities that were
          objectionable, then why did not HTM fall under that
          anathema since they remained in communion with those
          who were in communion, with those who were in
          communion with "heretics"?


          =====
          ********************************************************
          * Fr. John Whiteford IC -|- XC *
          * ----|---- *
          * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission | *
          * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \| *
          * and Conroe, Texas area. |\ *
          * http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/ NI | KA *

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        • Kiril Bart
          I wouldn t bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80 s Subdeacon
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 3, 2001
            I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
            seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
            service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
            Subdeacon Kirill
            --- "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
            wrote:

            > Me: Since the ROCA never broke communion with the
            > Serbs, even during the time of Metropolitan
            > Philaret,
            > when the Serbs were engaged in activities that were
            > objectionable, then why did not HTM fall under that
            > anathema since they remained in communion with those
            > who were in communion, with those who were in
            > communion with "heretics"?
            >
            >
            > =====
            >
            ********************************************************
            > * Fr. John Whiteford IC -|-
            > XC *
            > *
            > ----|---- *
            > * St. Jonah of Manchuria Orthodox Mission |
            > *
            > * Serving the Spring, Woodlands, \|
            > *
            > * and Conroe, Texas area. |\
            > *
            > * http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/ NI |
            > KA *
            >
            > __________________________________________________
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          • frjohnwhiteford@yahoo.com
            ... That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
              --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
              > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
              > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
              > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's

              That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
              service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
            • rsjmil
              In the event that Abp Alypy may have sinned by violating a regulation of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it alive like this?
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
                regulation
                of ROCA fifteen years ago at least, how Christian is it to keep it
                alive like this? You can claim all the finger pointing piety you wish
                to answer for, Kiril, but you cannot convince very many of us that
                raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
                repented of a lapse of judgement, shows Christian love and
                forgiveness. Surely, since you apparently feel yourself so correct
                and so Orthodox and so competent as to criticize, you are aware of
                what the Fathers say about exposing the sins of others. What is most
                clear is that you have no direct knowledge of the situation yourself
                and are relying entirely on subjective hearsay.

                Today is the Sunday of The Publican and The Pharisee. There are
                supposed to be lessons there for all of us.

                Joseph Miller



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <frjohnwhiteford@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:50 PM
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford


                > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                >
                > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in
                that
                > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • moserd@micron.net
                ... Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the Boston crowd tried
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                  --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                  > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                  > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                  > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                  > Subdeacon Kirill


                  Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
                  thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
                  Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
                  "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
                  for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
                  accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
                  there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
                  that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
                  of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
                  was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
                  desperate.

                  Pr David Moser
                  St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                  ... This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy s (and with him, my own) attendance at that Vesper
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                    On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                    > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                    > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                    > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                    > Subdeacon Kirill

                    This also is not correct. What happened was that, after the
                    Panteleimonites tried to represent Vl. Alypy's (and with him, my own)
                    attendance at that Vesper service in the Serbian church "an act of
                    ecumenism", the Metropolitan privately told Vl. Alypy that "it's safer to
                    stay away from such things". But he did not rebuke him, merely made a
                    suggestion.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                    ... Except that, as I said, there was no rebuke , let alone a serious or very serious one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl. Alypy (taking him to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                      On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 frjohnwhiteford@... wrote:

                      > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                      > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                      > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                      > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                      >
                      > That was because of the other jurisdictions that participated in that
                      > service... not because of the presence of the Serbs.
                      >
                      Except that, as I said, there was no "rebuke", let alone a
                      "serious" or "very serious" one. The Metropolitan merely suggested to Vl.
                      Alypy (taking him to one side) that it was safer to avoid "such
                      gatherings".

                      Such is what Vl. Alypy himself told me at the time (in March of
                      1986).

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                      ... There was, however, no such regulation --only a de-facto practice. ... Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a lapse of judgment . It
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                        On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, rsjmil wrote:

                        > In the event that Abp Alypy may have 'sinned' by violating a
                        > regulation

                        There was, however, no such "regulation"--only a de-facto
                        practice.

                        > of ROCA fifteen years ago at least,
                        > raking up someone's past, especially a Hierarch who already long ago
                        > repented of a lapse of judgement,

                        Nor did I get the impression that anyone thought this was a "lapse
                        of judgment". It was simply an innocent event that the Panteleimonites
                        were "making hay" out of.

                        A couple of years before then-archimandrite Kallistos Ware was
                        made a bishop, he was present at a service in the ROCOR convent in London
                        when Vl. Vitaly visited--and Vl. Vitaly invited him to concelebrate. Fr.
                        Kallistos had to decline because his own bishop had told him not to. (I
                        heard this from Bishop Kallistos himself). For several years, Fr.
                        Kallistos had been celebrating the Divine Liturgy in the convent.

                        If this had happened during or after the Panteleimonites' schism,
                        it could equally (or even more so) have been "made hay of".

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Kiril Bart
                        Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I m sorry about tone of your e-mail, you probably didn t read e-mail that I ve been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 4, 2001
                          Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                          your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                          been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                          illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                          ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                          proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                          time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                          wrong?
                          Subdeacon Kirill

                          --- moserd@... wrote:
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
                          > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                          > > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                          > > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                          > > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in
                          > mid-80's
                          > > Subdeacon Kirill
                          >
                          >
                          > Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than
                          > that. If the only
                          > thing you can come up with is an event in ancient
                          > history that the
                          > Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt
                          > Holly Springs to
                          > "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly
                          > and Bishop Gregory
                          > for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly
                          > and Gregory were
                          > accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at
                          > that time - I was
                          > there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a
                          > clergy only meeting at
                          > that conference - and as an outsider I must say it
                          > was a masterful act
                          > of political manipulation...). But if you can only
                          > beat a horse that
                          > was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must
                          > be pretty
                          > desperate.
                          >
                          > Pr David Moser
                          > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                          >
                          >


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                        • moserd@micron.net
                          ... If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop Anthony of blessed
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
                            --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                            > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                            > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                            > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                            > wrong?

                            If I were to go by the example of my ruling hierarch, Bishop Kyrill
                            of San Francisco and Western America, and his predecessor Archbishop
                            Anthony of blessed memory, I would have to say that we are now and
                            always have been in communion with the Serbs. So I guess I would
                            have to say that your conclusions are in error.

                            Pr David Moser
                            St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                          • Rev. John R. Shaw
                            ... There--now please don t be offended, but here it is not the tone that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the Slavic (except
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
                              On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                              > Dear in Christ, Fr. David, I'm sorry about tone of
                              > your e-mail, you probably didn't read e-mail that I've
                              > been replying to. I did refer to that event as
                              > illustration for attitude towards ecumenism by our
                              > ierarchs after Anathema to ecumenism. In my mind it
                              > proves that we weren't in communion with Serbs at that
                              > time, not that we were ecumenists all way long. Am I
                              > wrong?
                              > Subdeacon Kirill

                              There--now please don't be offended, but here it is not the "tone"
                              that tells us something, but the language. The above passage shows the
                              Slavic (except for Bulgarian/Macedonian and Czech) form of speech which
                              knows no articles--no "the" and no "a".

                              This is understandable enough for those of us who speak Russian,
                              Serbian, &c., but it also can mean that the person who reads English texts
                              with the Slavic habit of ignoring the "little words" can at times
                              seriously misunderstand something. And that can have more impact on an
                              exchange like this than one might suppose.

                              Thus for example:

                              1) The boy did not eat the egg.

                              2) The boy did not eat an egg.

                              3) The boy did not eat egg.

                              Do those all sound like the same thing? In reality, they all have
                              a different meaning. In the first sentence, there was a particular egg in
                              mind--*the* egg, the egg that had been spoken of, and who knows, it may
                              even have been a poisoned egg! The boy did not eat it, and therefore he
                              evade the poison.

                              Sentence 2: *an* egg. Here he did not eat an egg, but it is not
                              specified which one--simply that he did not include any eggs in his meal,
                              or that he did not eat any of the eggs that were before him.

                              Sentence 3: *egg*. This means that he never ate eggs at all, and
                              not just on one occasion.

                              So the difference here is as much as in Russian between "ya shol",
                              "ya poshol", and "ya khodil". On the other hand, to an English speaker
                              these three Russian forms would all be "I walked", even though one was at
                              the same time as something else that happened, one was a specific single
                              incident (and means that I also got there!) and the third means "I used to
                              go".

                              All of this points to the fact that one can read a message in
                              another language, often in haste and emotion, and misconstrue it to a
                              surpising degree.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • Joachim Wertz
                              I was there too. Although not privy to the clergy only meeting , I can attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I seem to
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 5, 2001
                                I was there too. Although not privy to the "clergy only meeting", I can
                                attest to hearing the same accusations among the lay participants, also, I
                                seem to recall, from the clerical organizer.
                                Joachim Wertz

                                ----------
                                From: moserd@...
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Reply to Fr. Whiteford
                                Date: Sun, Feb 4, 2001, 5:23 PM


                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                                > I wouldn't bet on it Father. Abp.Alypy has been
                                > seriously rebuked by Metropolitan for attending
                                > service with Serbian Bishops in Chicago in mid-80's
                                > Subdeacon Kirill


                                Oh, please, youre going to have to do better than that. If the only
                                thing you can come up with is an event in ancient history that the
                                Boston crowd tried to use at their conference in Mt Holly Springs to
                                "set up" then Archbishop (now Metropolitan) Vitaly and Bishop Gregory
                                for being too ecumenical (yes, both Vladyka Vitaly and Gregory were
                                accused of being ecumenical by the Boston folks at that time - I was
                                there, I saw it, I heard it - it happened in a clergy only meeting at
                                that conference - and as an outsider I must say it was a masterful act
                                of political manipulation...). But if you can only beat a horse that
                                was dead back in the early (not mid) 80's you must be pretty
                                desperate.

                                Pr David Moser
                                St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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