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Prayer for Salvation of Russia

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  • Kiril Bart
    I m just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just an initiative of our parish priest? Subdeacon Kirill
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 26, 2001
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      I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
      during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
      an initiative of our parish priest?
      Subdeacon Kirill

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    • matthew kowasic
      Kiril We still do it in our parish too, but we do alot of strange things too, so I dont know what to say. ... [Image] Grab the opportunity to market your
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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        Kiril
        We still do it in our parish too, but we do alot of strange things too,
        so I dont know what to say.

        Kiril Bart wrote:

        > I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
        > during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
        > an initiative of our parish priest?
        > Subdeacon Kirill
        >
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      • Fr. Gregory Williams
        By no means abolished in this parish, where I always use it on Sundays (bearing in mind that _my_ homeland is just as much in need of this prayer as is that of
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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          By no means abolished in this parish, where I always use it on
          Sundays (bearing in mind that _my_ homeland is just as much in need
          of this prayer as is that of the Russians) nor by Bishop Gabriel who,
          so far as I know, always reads it when he serves on Sundays.
          --
          --Fr. Gregory Williams

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
          1180 Orthodox Way
          Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

          Phone: (615) 536-5239
          FAX: (615) 536-5945
          E-mail: frgregory@...
        • Fr. Gregory Williams
          God bless you! What happened: You ordered the entire series last spring; at that time January was, of course, not yet available. You were billed for the
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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            God bless you!

            What happened: You ordered the entire series last spring; at that
            time January was, of course, not yet available. You were billed for
            the other 11 volumes, and a standing order entered to cover the last
            volume released (so you wouldn't have to pay months ahead for a
            volume with uncertain release date).

            ThenŠ you placed a web order for the same volume.

            SoŠ you got two.

            You, you may return the duplicate, and we'll credit it against
            whichever invoice it appears on.

            It appears the mixup arises from forgetfulness (we've had a couple of
            others on this one!), one of the hazards of standing-order systems.
            It seems unlikely I would have set it up that way unless you asked,
            but I have no record of that (at least not without plunging deep into
            scanned archives of correspondence pertaining to orders).

            Please be so good as to mark the package "authorized return - 100%
            credit", together with the pertinent invoice number (on the backorder
            label in either case). You'll wind up with a $125 credit on account
            against future purchases.

            Please keep me in your prayersŠ back to Haiti Tuesday. Hence also
            the "formalism"!


            -- Fr. Gregory
            --
            --Fr. Gregory Williams

            * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            1180 Orthodox Way
            Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

            Phone: (615) 536-5239
            FAX: (615) 536-5945
            E-mail: frgregory@...
          • Fr. Gregory Williams
            Please ignore that one about the January Menaion. It was NOT a sneaky advertisement, but rather a tired priest apparently writing a reply to one message on
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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              Please ignore that one about the January Menaion. It was NOT a
              sneaky advertisement, but rather a tired priest apparently writing a
              reply to one message on the reply form for another. Forgive me!
              --
              --Fr. Gregory Williams

              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              1180 Orthodox Way
              Liberty, TN 37095-4366 USA

              Phone: (615) 536-5239
              FAX: (615) 536-5945
              E-mail: frgregory@...
            • moserd@micron.net
              ... The prayer for the salvation of Russia is afaik still appointed to be used at liturgy. It can be omitted at times (for example on the Great Feasts). I am
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                > I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
                > during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
                > an initiative of our parish priest?
                > Subdeacon Kirill

                The prayer for the salvation of Russia is afaik still appointed to be
                used at liturgy. It can be omitted at times (for example on the Great
                Feasts). I am also still under the impression that we are to continue
                to use the litanies for Serbia and for the Holy Land (oh, wait, that's
                just a Western American diocese ukaze) as well. Our parish practice
                is to use these always on Sundays but not necessarily on weekdays or
                on the Great Feasts.


                Pr David Moser
                St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
              • Deacon Mark Smith
                Dear Kiril, Everytime Vladika Metropolitan Vitaly visited, we asked him whether or not he wanted to include the prayer for the salvation of Russia, he always
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 27, 2001
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                  Dear Kiril,
                  Everytime Vladika Metropolitan Vitaly visited, we asked him whether or not he wanted to include the prayer for the salvation of Russia, he always answered yes!
                  Deacon Mark
                  Edmonton
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Kiril Bart
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 10:41 PM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for Salvation of Russia


                  I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
                  during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
                  an initiative of our parish priest?
                  Subdeacon Kirill

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • MM Ossorgin
                  ... Dear Father, Father, bless. Vladika Gabriel was just here for our feast and on Sunday it was read. Nothing has changed. In Christ, Michael
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 28, 2001
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                    on 1/27/01 7:09 PM, Fr. Gregory Williams at frgregory@... wrote:

                    > By no means abolished in this parish, where I always use it on
                    > Sundays (bearing in mind that _my_ homeland is just as much in need
                    > of this prayer as is that of the Russians) nor by Bishop Gabriel who,
                    > so far as I know, always reads it when he serves on Sundays.

                    Dear Father,

                    Father, bless.

                    Vladika Gabriel was just here for our feast and on Sunday it was read.
                    Nothing has changed.

                    In Christ, Michael
                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                    ... This prayer was written, according to Vl. Averky, by Bishop Theophan of Poltava in the early years after the revolution. It replaced the Prayer for the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 29, 2001
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                      On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                      > I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
                      > during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
                      > an initiative of our parish priest?
                      > Subdeacon Kirill

                      This prayer was written, according to Vl. Averky, by Bishop
                      Theophan of Poltava in the early years after the revolution.

                      It replaced the Prayer for the Emperor that had been said at the
                      same point in the service (as noted by Bulgakov's Nastol'naja Kniga, which
                      also mentions that either this prayer *or* the Litany for the Departed
                      might be said, or neither).

                      During the years of Soviet persecution, a varied practice came to
                      be observed--some priests used the Prayer for the Salvation of Russia only
                      on weekdays, others only on Sundays. In Chicago we followed, more or less,
                      the old "rubrics" regarding the Prayer for the Tsar.

                      After the fall of communism, the text of the prayer was modified
                      to make it less specific. Some dropped the prayer, others use it less
                      frequently, and I am sure there are also those who use it at every
                      Liturgy. However, it can be argued that the main goal of this prayer has
                      already come to pass.
                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                      ... It was the custom not to use this prayer on the 12 Great Feasts, during the pre- and post-feasts, the 12 days of Christmas, Bright Week, &c. In Christ Fr.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 29, 2001
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                        On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:

                        > By no means abolished in this parish, where I always use it on
                        > Sundays (bearing in mind that _my_ homeland is just as much in need
                        > of this prayer as is that of the Russians) nor by Bishop Gabriel who,
                        > so far as I know, always reads it when he serves on Sundays.

                        It was the custom not to use this prayer on the 12 Great Feasts,
                        during the pre- and post-feasts, the 12 days of Christmas, Bright Week,
                        &c.
                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • MM Ossorgin
                        ... Dear Father, Father, bless. I realize that this is a highly sensitive topic, but I feel that it would be irresponsible if I didn t mention that the main
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 29, 2001
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                          on 1/29/01 7:22 AM, Rev. John R. Shaw at vrevjrs@... wrote:

                          > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:
                          >
                          >> I'm just curious if prayer for Salvation of Russia
                          >> during Liturgy has been abolished by Synod, or it just
                          >> an initiative of our parish priest?
                          >> Subdeacon Kirill

                          > After the fall of communism, the text of the prayer was modified
                          > to make it less specific. Some dropped the prayer, others use it less
                          > frequently, and I am sure there are also those who use it at every
                          > Liturgy. However, it can be argued that the main goal of this prayer has
                          > already come to pass.
                          > In Christ
                          > Fr. John R. Shaw

                          Dear Father,

                          Father, bless. I realize that this is a highly sensitive topic, but I feel
                          that it would be irresponsible if I didn't mention that the "main goal" of
                          this prayer has not come to pass and ask you to show me which part of the
                          prayer can be argued "...has already come to pass?"


                          Anyone who thinks all is well in Russia and that this prayer shouldn't be
                          read, and every part of it read (except during great feasts as you point
                          out), is delusional. It should be read clearly and distinctly and
                          prayerfully. Our bishop, Bishop Gabriel Chemodakov, in his pastoral wisdom,
                          has always insisted that this prayer be done in it's entirety.

                          The church in Russia is still suffering and Russia needs our prayers now as
                          much as the entire past century. The disguises are more pleasing to those
                          that want to live in "la la" land, but Subdeacon Kyrill's parish priest
                          should be applauded for continuing the practice of reading this prayer out
                          loud. I am unaware of any bishop in the church abroad who has lowered this
                          standard and I pray that I'm not proven incorrect.

                          In Christ, MM Ossorgin
                        • Kiril Bart
                          Actually our parish priest don t read that prayer anymore and I was just curious if it s Synodal decision or just his. Subdeacon Kirill M.M.Osorgin wrote: .
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 29, 2001
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                            Actually our parish priest don't read that prayer
                            anymore and I was just curious if it's Synodal
                            decision or just his.
                            Subdeacon Kirill
                            M.M.Osorgin wrote:
                            . The disguises are
                            > more pleasing to those
                            > that want to live in "la la" land, but Subdeacon
                            > Kyrill's parish priest
                            > should be applauded for continuing the practice of
                            > reading this prayer out
                            > loud. I am unaware of any bishop in the church
                            > abroad who has lowered this
                            > standard and I pray that I'm not proven incorrect.
                            >
                            > In Christ, MM Ossorgin
                            >
                            >


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                          • Rev. John R. Shaw
                            ... A point in connection wit this prayer that I neglected to mention earlier is this--that although it is for the salvation of Russia , in its usual Slavonic
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 29, 2001
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                              On Sat, 27 Jan 2001, Fr. Gregory Williams wrote:
                              > (bearing in mind that _my_ homeland is just as much in need
                              > of this prayer as is that of the Russians)

                              A point in connection wit this prayer that I neglected to mention
                              earlier is this--that although it is "for the salvation of Russia", in its
                              usual Slavonic form it does not mention Russia at all--only "our
                              Fatherland", "otechestvo nashe".

                              For use in a Russian parish, this may not be a great matter. But
                              when recited (even in the Slavonic) by a priest of another
                              nationality--and for all my Russophile outlook, I can't change the names
                              on my family tree--it seems a bit inappropriate.

                              I always felt it would be a bit dishonest of me to intone
                              "otechestvo nashe" with Russia in mind; and inappropriate to say it with
                              America in mind (even though we have serious problems here, too!). To
                              compare the evil undercurrents in America with the mass martyrdom, the
                              rape of the Russian Church under the Soviets, is not appropriate.

                              Therefore I began very early on, and then always continued, to say
                              "stranu Rossijskuju" rather than "otechestvo nashe": "the Russian land",
                              or "the land of Russia" rather than "our fatherland".

                              Despite the efforts of many to make English translations as
                              faithful as possible to the printed Slavonic books, I have also felt that
                              in this case it was not a good idea to present this text, often in a
                              purely English-speaking or convert parish, with the words "our fatherland"
                              and with no specific mention of Russia as the land being prayed for. Even
                              in an ethnic Russian, or Russo-American, parish--to read this prayer as-is
                              but in English could lead to misunderstanding by the many casual visitors
                              or first-timers, or even children who listen but do not ask what something
                              means.

                              I also do something that is not done by others at the litanies and
                              at the Great Entrance: thus I say, not "this land", but (in Slavonic)
                              "stranu siju *Amerikanskuju*". Since I usually commemorate 1)
                              "Bogokhranimuju stranu Rossijskuju", then 2) "strazhduschuju stranu
                              Serbskuju", and then 3) "stranu siju Amerikanskuju... i vsjakuju
                              khristianskuju stranu"--I feel it helps to be *specific*.

                              None of this has ever evinced any objections from our hierarchs,
                              those taht I have served under, or in the presence of: Metropolitan
                              Philaret, Archbishop Nikon, Archbishop Seraphim of Chicago and Detroit,
                              Vl. Alypy of the same title.

                              As for whether or not the "main goal has been fulfilled" in the
                              Prayer for the Salvation of Russia", please note that I only said "it can
                              be *argued*", rather than "it is generally held". However, we pray for the
                              salvation of Russia not only in that prayer--but in many places and ways.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • moserd@micron.net
                              ... with ... To ... the ... In my parish I have not only Russians and Americans but Latvians, Poles, Ukranians (yeah, I know, they could easily be classed as
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:

                                >
                                > I always felt it would be a bit dishonest of me to intone
                                > "otechestvo nashe" with Russia in mind; and inappropriate to say it
                                with
                                > America in mind (even though we have serious problems here, too!).
                                To
                                > compare the evil undercurrents in America with the mass martyrdom,
                                the
                                > rape of the Russian Church under the Soviets, is not appropriate.

                                In my parish I have not only Russians and Americans but Latvians,
                                Poles, Ukranians (yeah, I know, they could easily be classed
                                as "Russians" but for the sake of political correctness....), Serbs
                                and other non-Russian Slavs. Being limited in my slavonic, I always
                                say this prayer in English and I always say, "the Russian homeland
                                and our own homelands" to reflect the diverse nature of my parish.

                                I also am specific at the great entrance *and* in the litanies in
                                mentioning "the United States of America, its authorities and armed
                                forces".

                                Pr David Moser
                                St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                              • Kiril Bart
                                Wasn t it a little bit contradictory to pray for Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                  Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                  Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at
                                  the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                  Subdeacon Kirill

                                  --- moserd@... wrote:
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Rev. John R. Shaw"
                                  > <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > I always felt it would be a bit dishonest of me
                                  > to intone
                                  > > "otechestvo nashe" with Russia in mind; and
                                  > inappropriate to say it
                                  > with
                                  > > America in mind (even though we have serious
                                  > problems here, too!).
                                  > To
                                  > > compare the evil undercurrents in America with the
                                  > mass martyrdom,
                                  > the
                                  > > rape of the Russian Church under the Soviets, is
                                  > not appropriate.
                                  >
                                  > In my parish I have not only Russians and Americans
                                  > but Latvians,
                                  > Poles, Ukranians (yeah, I know, they could easily be
                                  > classed
                                  > as "Russians" but for the sake of political
                                  > correctness....), Serbs
                                  > and other non-Russian Slavs. Being limited in my
                                  > slavonic, I always
                                  > say this prayer in English and I always say, "the
                                  > Russian homeland
                                  > and our own homelands" to reflect the diverse nature
                                  > of my parish.
                                  >
                                  > I also am specific at the great entrance *and* in
                                  > the litanies in
                                  > mentioning "the United States of America, its
                                  > authorities and armed
                                  > forces".
                                  >
                                  > Pr David Moser
                                  > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Paul Drozdowski
                                  Since the Kosovo bombings, my priests (Fr Philip Petrovsky and Fr Boris Kizenko) have left out the phrase the armed forces , during the great entrance,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                    Since the Kosovo bombings, my priests (Fr Philip Petrovsky and Fr Boris
                                    Kizenko) have left out the phrase "the armed forces", during the great
                                    entrance, specifically because the issue was so problematic.
                                    -reader Paul Drozdowski
                                    St Vladimir's Memorial Church, Jackson NJ (ROCOR)

                                    >Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                    >Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at
                                    >the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                    > Subdeacon Kirill
                                    >
                                    >--- moserd@... wrote:
                                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Rev. John R. Shaw"
                                    > > <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I always felt it would be a bit dishonest of me
                                    > > to intone
                                    > > > "otechestvo nashe" with Russia in mind; and
                                    > > inappropriate to say it
                                    > > with
                                    > > > America in mind (even though we have serious
                                    > > problems here, too!).
                                    > > To
                                    > > > compare the evil undercurrents in America with the
                                    > > mass martyrdom,
                                    > > the
                                    > > > rape of the Russian Church under the Soviets, is
                                    > > not appropriate.
                                    > >
                                    > > In my parish I have not only Russians and Americans
                                    > > but Latvians,
                                    > > Poles, Ukranians (yeah, I know, they could easily be
                                    > > classed
                                    > > as "Russians" but for the sake of political
                                    > > correctness....), Serbs
                                    > > and other non-Russian Slavs. Being limited in my
                                    > > slavonic, I always
                                    > > say this prayer in English and I always say, "the
                                    > > Russian homeland
                                    > > and our own homelands" to reflect the diverse nature
                                    > > of my parish.
                                    > >
                                    > > I also am specific at the great entrance *and* in
                                    > > the litanies in
                                    > > mentioning "the United States of America, its
                                    > > authorities and armed
                                    > > forces".
                                    > >
                                    > > Pr David Moser
                                    > > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)

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                                  • moserd@micron.net
                                    ... No, one can always pray for repentance, for salvation, for enlightenment, for protection from harm, etc. Praying for someone does not imply that you
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                      --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                                      > Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                      > Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at
                                      > the same time to pray for american armed forces?

                                      No, one can always pray for repentance, for salvation, for
                                      enlightenment, for protection from harm, etc. Praying for someone
                                      does not imply that you approve of their actions or hope for their
                                      victory. Your "contradiction" is no more contradictory that to
                                      include the prayer for Russia in the same liturgy where we pray for
                                      the hierarchs and people of the Russian Church Abroad....

                                      Fr David Moser
                                      St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                      ... When there was a ROCOR parish in Hong Kong, it used to be customary there to pray for the suffering Russian and Chinese people In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                        On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 moserd@... wrote:
                                        > say this prayer in English and I always say, "the Russian homeland
                                        > and our own homelands" to reflect the diverse nature of my parish.
                                        >
                                        > I also am specific at the great entrance *and* in the litanies in
                                        > mentioning "the United States of America, its authorities and armed
                                        > forces".

                                        When there was a ROCOR parish in Hong Kong, it used to be
                                        customary there to pray for "the suffering Russian and Chinese people"

                                        In Christ
                                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                        ... Perhaps it would be. However, during the bombing of Serbia, and for a time after it, I omitted the commemoration of the armed forces. Be that as it may,
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                          On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:

                                          > Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                          > Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at
                                          > the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                          > Subdeacon Kirill
                                          >
                                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Rev. John R. Shaw"
                                          > > <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                          > > the litanies in
                                          > > mentioning "the United States of America, its
                                          > > authorities and armed
                                          > > forces".

                                          Perhaps it would be. However, during the
                                          bombing of Serbia, and for a time after it, I omitted the commemoration of
                                          the armed forces.

                                          Be that as it may, praying for or commemorating various people adn
                                          groups does not mean, necessarily, that we pray "that their goals be
                                          achied, such as they desire". We pray for their salvation and God's
                                          direction--which may be in quite another direction than they would take of
                                          themselves.

                                          In Christ
                                          Fr. John R. Shaw
                                        • Kiril Bart
                                          I m not arguing your rationalization on a first part, but comparison with second part doesn t seems logical to me at all. Regards, Subdeacon Kirill ... Your
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                            I'm not arguing your rationalization on a first part,
                                            but comparison with second part doesn't seems logical
                                            to me at all.
                                            Regards, Subdeacon Kirill
                                            --- moserd@... wrote:
                                            > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., Kiril Bart
                                            > <kirbart@y...> wrote:
                                            > > Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                            > > Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing
                                            > and at
                                            > > the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                            >
                                            > No, one can always pray for repentance, for
                                            > salvation, for
                                            > enlightenment, for protection from harm, etc.
                                            > Praying for someone
                                            > does not imply that you approve of their actions or
                                            > hope for their
                                            > victory.

                                            Your "contradiction" is no more
                                            > contradictory that to
                                            > include the prayer for Russia in the same liturgy
                                            > where we pray for
                                            > the hierarchs and people of the Russian Church
                                            > Abroad....
                                            >
                                            > Fr David Moser
                                            > St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                                            >
                                            >


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                                          • Theodora
                                            snip However, during the ... snip Can one do this without the blessing of the Bishop, or perhaps I read this wrong but you said I ???? I only ask as I was
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                              snip
                                              However, during the
                                              > bombing of Serbia, and for a time after it, I omitted the commemoration of
                                              > the armed forces.

                                              snip
                                              Can one do this without the blessing of the Bishop, or perhaps I read this
                                              wrong but you said "I"???? I only ask as I was told by many you could not
                                              change the service. I think this a little sad though as I know several
                                              Orthodox families that have sons in the Armed Forces. I pray of them and
                                              for those in power....even when we are doing the destruction. Isn't that
                                              what we are called to do??? I can't stop the bombs and destruction but I can
                                              pray.

                                              We continue to say the prayers at our Parish.

                                              Theodora in the mountains were Spring seems to have come early...hundreds of
                                              birds have flow in. :-)
                                            • Russell Martin
                                              ... I think this a little sad though as I know several Orthodox families that have sons in the Armed Forces. I pray of them and for those in power....even
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                                >>> theomtn@... 01/30/01 04:52PM:
                                                I think this a little sad though as I know several
                                                Orthodox families that have sons in the Armed Forces. I pray of them and
                                                for those in power....even when we are doing the destruction. Isn't that
                                                what we are called to do??? I can't stop the bombs and destruction but I can
                                                pray.

                                                We continue to say the prayers at our Parish.>>>

                                                Good. Prayers that have become part of the living tradition of the Church--whether they be prayers said at home or that form part of the common worship of God's people--are those that reveal a divine wisdom that penetrates the hearts of all those who utter them. They move us toward God. They create in us the "right spirit" by which we can make our hearts more welcoming to God entering us, dwelling in us.

                                                While it may be that prayers touch us all in individual ways, some encapsulate such profound Truth and wisdom that they reach us all, except (maybe) those with the hardest of hearts--the 24 (orignally hourly) injunctions of St. John Chrysostom's prayer (said as part of the evening prayers), the prayer of the Optina Fathers (said as part of the morning prayers), the Cherubic Hymn, ALL of the prayers before Holy Communion, and so on.

                                                This is surely the case with the Prayer for the Salvation of Russia, too. It reaches beyond the specific entreaty (for the liberation by God of the Russian Church from the Godless and atheistic civil authorities) to prompt us to think about our own civil authorities in the diaspora, and, indeed, to encourage us to remember that we all live in a spiritual diaspora, no matter where we are. Our kingdom is no part of this world.

                                                But we pray for this world nonetheless, as the Holy Apostle Paul urged us, and as our Lord and Savior did as well. We pray for all civil authorities. Not knowing God's holy will, we pray without prejudice or preference. And so we are taught love.

                                                Prayer for the US armed forces and for Serbia simultaneously may seem inconguous, but no more than ANY prayers by us for ANY country in this world, Russia, Serbia, the US, or otherwise. Our kingdom is no part of this world. Still, we pray. We pray to learn love. We prayer to be obedient. We pray to learn humility.

                                                I have no special insights of any kind when it comes to spiritual things. But I can say that I never felt so close to the spirit of prayer I see in the monks I know, as when I found myself in a Serbian Church during the bombings of Kosovo and Serbia, praying for both the bombed and bombers. Never before did it occur to me so clearly that I could do nothing to stop this abomination, that I was helpless and so utterly unaware of God's will. Never before was my own feebleness so clear to me. All I could do was pray for everyone, and to put my trust in God.

                                                Apologies for rambling on. It is a important topic. And one that is on my mind lately.

                                                Love,
                                                Roman Martin
                                                sinful and unworthy reader
                                              • Justin Griffing
                                                Forgive my perhaps ignorant posting, but would this not be similar to another point in history? I seem to remember St. Nicholas of Japan telling the Japanese
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                                  Forgive my perhaps ignorant posting, but would this not be similar to
                                                  another point in history? I seem to remember St. Nicholas of Japan telling
                                                  the Japanese priests to pray for the Japanese armed forces in their war
                                                  against Russia, even though he was Russian. There was also the fact it was
                                                  primarily non-Orthodox forces against majority Orthodox forces. Perhaps
                                                  there is a difference here still, but I see similarities.

                                                  In Christ,
                                                  Justin Griffing

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                                                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:42 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Prayer for Salvation of Russia


                                                  > On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Kiril Bart wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Wasn't it a little bit contradictory to pray for
                                                  > > Serbia and region of Kosovo during NATO bombing and at
                                                  > > the same time to pray for american armed forces?
                                                  > > Subdeacon Kirill
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > --- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Rev. John R. Shaw"
                                                  > > > <vrevjrs@e...> wrote:
                                                  > > > the litanies in
                                                  > > > mentioning "the United States of America, its
                                                  > > > authorities and armed
                                                  > > > forces".
                                                  >
                                                  > Perhaps it would be. However, during the
                                                  > bombing of Serbia, and for a time after it, I omitted the commemoration of
                                                  > the armed forces.
                                                  >
                                                  > Be that as it may, praying for or commemorating various people adn
                                                  > groups does not mean, necessarily, that we pray "that their goals be
                                                  > achied, such as they desire". We pray for their salvation and God's
                                                  > direction--which may be in quite another direction than they would take of
                                                  > themselves.
                                                  >
                                                  > In Christ
                                                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                                  ... I do not know the situation in other Dioceses, but here, Vl. Alypy (like Vl. Seraphim of blessed memory) has always allowed priests a good deal of
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                    On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Theodora wrote:

                                                    > However, during the
                                                    > > bombing of Serbia, and for a time after it, I omitted the commemoration of
                                                    > > the armed forces.
                                                    >
                                                    > snip
                                                    > Can one do this without the blessing of the Bishop, or perhaps I read this
                                                    > wrong but you said "I"???? I only ask as I was told by many you could not
                                                    > change the service.

                                                    I do not know the situation in other Dioceses, but here, Vl. Alypy
                                                    (like Vl. Seraphim of blessed memory) has always allowed priests a good
                                                    deal of discretion on such details.

                                                    I think this a little sad though as I know several
                                                    > Orthodox families that have sons in the Armed Forces. I pray of them and
                                                    > for those in power....even when we are doing the destruction. Isn't that
                                                    > what we are called to do??? I can't stop the bombs and destruction but I can
                                                    > pray.
                                                    >
                                                    It can be argued both ways. But it seems one thing to pray for the
                                                    safety and salvation of those in the Armed Forces, and another to pray for
                                                    the success of such military moves.
                                                    In Christ
                                                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                                                  • Theodora
                                                    snip ... snip I didn t think I read anything about the sucess of military moves in your post (I may have misread)...just omitting the prayer. I guess I tend
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                      snip

                                                      > It can be argued both ways. But it seems one thing to pray for the
                                                      > safety and salvation of those in the Armed Forces, and another to pray for
                                                      > the success of such military moves.

                                                      snip

                                                      I didn't think I read anything about the "sucess of military moves" in your
                                                      post (I may have misread)...just omitting the prayer. I guess I tend to
                                                      think Abraham had it down right.."If there are 10 righteous people" ....so
                                                      when these difficult and terrible times come up I pray the prayers and knell
                                                      before the Icon of the three angles..only God knows...but Abraham sure kept
                                                      asking didn't he?? :-) As I now pray for the souls buried alive in India
                                                      and those suffering everywhere.

                                                      Theodora in the mountains
                                                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                                      ... Omitting mention of the armed forces, that is. I guess I tend to ... Well, in that case, how would you feel about praying for the various Orthodox
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                        On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Theodora wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > I didn't think I read anything about the "sucess of military moves" in your
                                                        > post (I may have misread)...just omitting the prayer.

                                                        Omitting mention of the armed forces, that is.

                                                        I guess I tend to
                                                        > think Abraham had it down right.."If there are 10 righteous people" ....so
                                                        > when these difficult and terrible times come up I pray the prayers and knell
                                                        > before the Icon of the three angles..only God knows...but Abraham sure kept
                                                        > asking didn't he?? :-)

                                                        Well, in that case, how would you feel about praying for the
                                                        various Orthodox Patriarchates at the Great Entrance?
                                                        Surely there are *at least* "ten righteous" in each of them.

                                                        As I now pray for the souls buried alive in India

                                                        In Christ
                                                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                                                      • Theodora
                                                        snip ... snip Uh????? Excuse me...I don t understand the above. Have I ever said there are no righteous Patriachates????? I don t think so. You must have
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                          snip

                                                          > Well, in that case, how would you feel about praying for the
                                                          > various Orthodox Patriarchates at the Great Entrance?
                                                          > Surely there are *at least* "ten righteous" in each of them.
                                                          >

                                                          snip

                                                          Uh????? Excuse me...I don't understand the above. Have I ever said there
                                                          are no righteous Patriachates????? I don't think so. You must have mis
                                                          read my post on this thread. Gosh, now I am confused.

                                                          Theodora in the mountains
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