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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message

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  • Rd. Constantine Wright
    ... How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and MP-intercommuning love brigade can get! With Christ s love, Rd. Constantine
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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      >From: "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
      >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message
      >
      >You forgot to pray and to fast?

      How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
      get!

      With Christ's love,
      Rd. Constantine

      #############################################################
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      # constantinew@... constans@... #
      # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
      #-----------------------------------------------------------#
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    • Joseph Digrande
      Doesn the MP recognize the Monophosites as part of the Orthodox Church? I thought that occurred in 1970- I am not sure of the year though. And if so- any
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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        Doesn' the MP recognize the Monophosites as part of
        the Orthodox Church? I thought that occurred in 1970-
        I am not sure of the year though. And if so- any
        recognition of them as a Church with grace flies in
        the face of the 4-7th Councils which all condemned the
        Monophosites as rank heretics regardless of the piety
        of its lower clergy and laity. And these are the
        people Rocor considers a "Church"?
        Also have the Serbs followed in Moscow's footsteps and
        also recognized the Monophosites as a valid Orthodox
        Church? I know both the OCA and Constantinople do
        recognize them. //Joseph Digrande
        --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
        <constantinew@...> wrote:
        > >From: "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
        > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver
        > your message
        > >
        > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
        >
        > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and
        > MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
        > get!
        >
        > With Christ's love,
        > Rd. Constantine
        >
        >
        #############################################################
        > # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens,
        > GA 30603 #
        > # constantinew@...
        > constans@... #
        > # Personal Page-
        > http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
        >
        #-----------------------------------------------------------#
        > # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church
        > (ROCOR) #
        > # Church Web Site -
        > http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
        >
        #############################################################
        >
        >
        _________________________________________________________________
        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
        > http://explorer.msn.com
        >
        >


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      • Alexey M. Chumakov
        ... No, they do not, despite having very amicable relations with Armenians and Copts - theological discussions with them led to no result at all.
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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          --- In orthodox-synod@egroups.com, Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@y...>
          wrote:
          > Doesn' the MP recognize the Monophosites as part of
          > the Orthodox Church? I thought that occurred in 1970-
          > I am not sure of the year though.

          No, they do not, despite having very amicable relations with
          Armenians and Copts - theological discussions with them led to no
          result at all. Recommedations of the dialogue commissions were set
          aside by the Bishop's Council of MP as "requiring further study" etc.

          > And if so- any recognition of them as a Church with grace flies in
          > the face of the 4-7th Councils which all condemned the
          > Monophosites as rank heretics regardless of the piety
          > of its lower clergy and laity.

          Monophysites are heretics. According to the Canons of Ecumenical
          Council, they are received into Orthodox Church through repentance
          and rejection of heresies - a detailed list is found in, for example,
          in the "Desk reference book..." of Bulgakov.

          > And these are the
          > people Rocor considers a "Church"?
          > Also have the Serbs followed in Moscow's footsteps and
          > also recognized the Monophosites as a valid Orthodox
          > Church? I know both the OCA and Constantinople do
          > recognize them. //Joseph Digrande

          I doubt that they do. They see monophysites as perhaps the "next
          closest thing" to Orthodox Church, but in some 1500+ years of
          dialogue with them union has not happened - and there are no
          indications that it will.

          > --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"

          > > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
          > >
          > > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and
          > > MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
          > > get!

          I am sorry. I was simply tired of this paranoid raving and had to
          call a spade - a spade.
        • frelia
          I have never met a Monophysite. They all laugh, and say we are uncanonical because all our bishops have been appointed by secular rulers
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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            I have never met a Monophysite. They all laugh, and say we are uncanonical because all our bishops have been appointed by secular rulers for centuries. Their reasons for autonomy have nothing to do with the Nature of Christ, about which the Armenians , at least, have made endless Orthodox pronouncements until they realized that the Greeks just did not want them in "their " church. The Coptic Pope is certainly more Orthodox than the Greek Pope.
            Howevery that is totally irrelevant (if it ever was). The Armenians now are Masons, and liberal ideas like abortion , every liberal idea are found among them. But all this is a theoretical archeological study. The Greek and Russian Church are all fallen, except for a tiny few with, (I think) Archbishop Valentine. It is not the 7 Councils they have abandoned but the Gospel. It seems a fact that the Copts and South Indians still produce miracle working saints. However, they lack whatever it takes to survive contraception, smoking, hedonism in general. The Synod was the last stronghold of Traditional Christianity, except for the Matthewites (from whom I got an email today.)
            I just mailed you a fat Xmas card with pictures. I feel very low, as my own dean and friend writes that I have gone nuts, raving and scandal-mongering. I am neary mad with grief, but the facts are the facts. It is just that almost no one can believe their eyes. But it IS TRUE. The Synod has been taken over by the KGB. I can't believe I am writing that!!!
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@...>
            To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000 3:53 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message


            Doesn' the MP recognize the Monophosites as part of
            the Orthodox Church? I thought that occurred in 1970-
            I am not sure of the year though. And if so- any
            recognition of them as a Church with grace flies in
            the face of the 4-7th Councils which all condemned the
            Monophosites as rank heretics regardless of the piety
            of its lower clergy and laity. And these are the
            people Rocor considers a "Church"?
            Also have the Serbs followed in Moscow's footsteps and
            also recognized the Monophosites as a valid Orthodox
            Church? I know both the OCA and Constantinople do
            recognize them. //Joseph Digrande
            --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
            <constantinew@...> wrote:
            > >From: "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
            > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver
            > your message
            > >
            > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
            >
            > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and
            > MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
            > get!
            >
            > With Christ's love,
            > Rd. Constantine
            >
            >
            #############################################################
            > # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens,
            > GA 30603 #
            > # constantinew@...
            > constans@... #
            > # Personal Page-
            > http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
            >
            #-----------------------------------------------------------#
            > # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church
            > (ROCOR) #
            > # Church Web Site -
            > http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
            >
            #############################################################
            >
            >
            _________________________________________________________________
            > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > http://explorer.msn.com
            >
            >


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Lammert
            ... Alexey s response was obviously intended to be humorous. Charity requires that we presume Reader Constantine s rebuttal was also intended to be humorous.
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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              "Rd. Constantine Wright" wrote:
              >
              > >From: "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
              > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message
              > >
              > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
              >
              > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
              > get!

              Alexey's response was obviously intended to be humorous.

              Charity requires that we presume Reader Constantine's "rebuttal" was
              also intended to be humorous.

              Nevertheless, I don't get it.
            • The Stephens
              Rd. Constantine: Judgement seems to be what your mpny egroup site is about and it appears that the orthodox-synod egroup is about the same thing. You
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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                Rd. Constantine:

                Judgement seems to be what your "mpny egroup" site is about and it appears
                that the "orthodox-synod egroup" is about the same thing. You judge Alexey
                M. Chumakov as an "MP-sympathizers" and MP-intercommuning "love brigade" and
                then you sign your "judgement" "With Christ's love".

                I believe there's something out of order here! These remarks of yours seem
                inconsistant with "Christ's love".

                Regretfully,
                Fr. Seraphim Stephens

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Rd. Constantine Wright" <constantinew@...>
                To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 4:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message


                > >From: "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
                > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message
                > >
                > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
                >
                > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and MP-intercommuning "love brigade"
                can
                > get!
                >
                > With Christ's love,
                > Rd. Constantine
                >
                > #############################################################
                > # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
                > # constantinew@... constans@... #
                > # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
                > #-----------------------------------------------------------#
                > # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
                > # Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
                > #############################################################
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Joseph Digrande
                Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites? I do know of Arch Averky letting them use the Church at Holy Trinity Monastery for their LIturgy and being
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 28, 2000
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                  Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites? I
                  do know of Arch Averky letting them use the Church at
                  Holy Trinity Monastery for their LIturgy and being
                  rebuked by Met. Philaret-- what about the Moscow
                  Patriarchate- any common prayer?
                  --- "Alexey M. Chumakov" <achumakov@...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@egroups.com, Joseph Digrande
                  > <paisiosj@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Doesn' the MP recognize the Monophosites as part
                  > of
                  > > the Orthodox Church? I thought that occurred in
                  > 1970-
                  > > I am not sure of the year though.
                  >
                  > No, they do not, despite having very amicable
                  > relations with
                  > Armenians and Copts - theological discussions with
                  > them led to no
                  > result at all. Recommedations of the dialogue
                  > commissions were set
                  > aside by the Bishop's Council of MP as "requiring
                  > further study" etc.
                  >
                  > > And if so- any recognition of them as a Church
                  > with grace flies in
                  > > the face of the 4-7th Councils which all condemned
                  > the
                  > > Monophosites as rank heretics regardless of the
                  > piety
                  > > of its lower clergy and laity.
                  >
                  > Monophysites are heretics. According to the Canons
                  > of Ecumenical
                  > Council, they are received into Orthodox Church
                  > through repentance
                  > and rejection of heresies - a detailed list is found
                  > in, for example,
                  > in the "Desk reference book..." of Bulgakov.
                  >
                  > > And these are the
                  > > people Rocor considers a "Church"?
                  > > Also have the Serbs followed in Moscow's footsteps
                  > and
                  > > also recognized the Monophosites as a valid
                  > Orthodox
                  > > Church? I know both the OCA and Constantinople do
                  > > recognize them. //Joseph Digrande
                  >
                  > I doubt that they do. They see monophysites as
                  > perhaps the "next
                  > closest thing" to Orthodox Church, but in some 1500+
                  > years of
                  > dialogue with them union has not happened - and
                  > there are no
                  > indications that it will.
                  >
                  > > --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
                  >
                  > > > >You forgot to pray and to fast?
                  > > >
                  > > > How judgemental the MP-sympathizing and
                  > > > MP-intercommuning "love brigade" can
                  > > > get!
                  >
                  > I am sorry. I was simply tired of this paranoid
                  > raving and had to
                  > call a spade - a spade.
                  >
                  >


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                • Rd. Constantine Wright
                  Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever! ... Alexy participated in the consecration of an Armenian Cathedral in St. Petersburg - I posted the article to this and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 29, 2000
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                    Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

                    >From: Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@...>
                    >Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: Unable to deliver your message
                    >
                    >Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites? I
                    >do know of Arch Averky letting them use the Church at
                    >Holy Trinity Monastery for their LIturgy and being
                    >rebuked by Met. Philaret-- what about the Moscow
                    >Patriarchate- any common prayer?

                    Alexy participated in the consecration of an Armenian Cathedral in St.
                    Petersburg - I posted the article to this and the Indiana List, and as well
                    I believe it is still online at the MP website.

                    With Christ's love,
                    Rd. Constantine

                    #############################################################
                    # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
                    # constantinew@... constans@... #
                    # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
                    #-----------------------------------------------------------#
                    # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
                    # Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
                    #############################################################

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Alexey M. Chumakov
                    ... Depends on the definition of common prayer . They do not concelebrate and do receive communion in each other s church. Otherwise, relations are quite
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 29, 2000
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@egroups.com, Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites? I
                      > do know of Arch Averky letting them use the Church at
                      > Holy Trinity Monastery for their LIturgy and being
                      > rebuked by Met. Philaret-- what about the Moscow
                      > Patriarchate- any common prayer?

                      Depends on the definition of "common prayer". They do not
                      concelebrate and do receive communion in each other's church.
                      Otherwise, relations are quite warm, as generally are relations
                      between Russians and Armenians - indeed, some of the pre-1917
                      Armenian (and, a tiny fraction of pre-1917 roman catholic) cathedrals
                      has been reopened, and MP clergy has been "guests of honor" at all
                      these events. Which is only natural - at least, as natural as the
                      presence of, say, an Archbishop of Canterbury in ROCA altar during
                      episcopal consecrations of old. A zealous "heresy-seeker" would see
                      it as a betrayal of orthodoxy. An orthodox christian will probably
                      think it is within the limits of civility and does not imply shared
                      confession of faith.
                    • Olga Mitrenina
                      ... They serve common molebens when partiarch goes to Armenia. For example the article in Armenian newspaper Avatamk #35-36, 1996 describes how partiarch
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 30, 2000
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                        > > Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites? I
                        > > do know of Arch Averky letting them use the Church at
                        > > Holy Trinity Monastery for their LIturgy and being
                        > > rebuked by Met. Philaret-- what about the Moscow
                        > > Patriarchate- any common prayer?
                        >
                        > Depends on the definition of "common prayer".

                        They serve common molebens when partiarch goes to Armenia.
                        For example the article in Armenian newspaper "Avatamk" #35-36, 1996
                        describes how partiarch Alexei and Catholicos Garegin served common molebens
                        in Armenia.

                        Olga
                      • Rev. John R. Shaw
                        ... This claim is relatively easy to disprove. Only someone not aware of the differences between the Slavonic and Greek (let alone Armenian!) service books
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 1, 2001
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                          On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Olga Mitrenina wrote:

                          > > > Has there been common prayer with the Monophosites?

                          > > Depends on the definition of "common prayer".
                          >
                          > They serve common molebens when partiarch goes to Armenia.
                          > For example the article in Armenian newspaper "Avatamk" #35-36, 1996
                          > describes how partiarch Alexei and Catholicos Garegin served common molebens
                          > in Armenia.
                          >
                          This claim is relatively easy to disprove.

                          Only someone not aware of the differences between the Slavonic and
                          Greek (let alone Armenian!) service books would talk of a "concelebrated
                          Moleben".

                          The Moleben is largely a form of worship that has taken shape in
                          the Slavonic tradition. There are a few Greek services known as
                          "Paraklesis", but they differ enough from Russian Molebens to make
                          concelebration hard for those not fluent in both languages and traditions.
                          The word "Moleben" is sometimes translated into English as "Te Deum
                          service", but in reality the way they have developed and come to be used
                          is so peculiarly Russian as to make a clear translation difficult.

                          I have studied the Armenian language and service books to some
                          extent--am no expert--but have seen nothing faintly resembling a "Moleben"
                          such as we are accustomed to.

                          However, a reference several years ago to Patriarch Alexy II
                          having "joined in a Moleben" turned out to be merely a translation of a
                          translation of a a translation--and if much can be *lost* in translation,
                          quite a bit can be *added* as well.

                          What appears to have been the case is that the two Patriarchs
                          simply visited the church together, (the one in question had been
                          consecrated as an Orthodox church)--and Patriarch Alexy had crossed
                          himself, or perhaps prayed to himself. (One can pray for many things!).

                          The rest was "media hype".


                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
                        • Olga Mitrenina
                          Baref dzes, dear Father John, ... Patriarch-Catholicos Garegin and some other Armenian spiritual authorities graduated Moscow Patriarchate seminary in Zagorsk,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 2, 2001
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                            Baref dzes, dear Father John,

                            > I have studied the Armenian language and service books to some
                            > extent--am no expert--but have seen nothing faintly resembling a "Moleben"
                            > such as we are accustomed to.

                            Patriarch-Catholicos Garegin and some other Armenian spiritual authorities
                            graduated Moscow Patriarchate seminary in Zagorsk, so they know how to serve
                            molebens:-)

                            > However, a reference several years ago to Patriarch Alexy II
                            > having "joined in a Moleben"

                            It was not "a" reference, but it was a number of loud common prayers.
                            There is an MP parish in Yereven, Khankavan, with a very good rector, Father
                            Vladimir. You can discuss it with them. Although they count ROCA to be a
                            schizm, they will probably tell you some interesting details.

                            Olga
                          • Rev. John R. Shaw
                            ... There, you see--I would have said Parev tsez . But I started with the Western Armenian. In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 2, 2001
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                              On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Olga Mitrenina wrote:

                              > Baref dzes, dear Father John,

                              There, you see--I would have said "Parev tsez". But I started
                              with the Western Armenian.
                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
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